Review of TWF relative DPS

[Demoyn]

Hey Gfunk - after reading NXP's mislead thoughts on warchanters, can you plug this build into your thread for a reference of the DPS differential please?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=170138

[gfunk]

Hey Gfunk - after reading NXP's mislead thoughts on warchanters, can you plug this build into your thread for a reference of the DPS differential please?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=170138

here are numbers for khopesh and rapier for the build you posted

I also added in a Dwarven axe user, as thats what I'm leveling atm (will be 18bard / 2fighter)

2 seperate charts for bard songs at +7 and +9





assuming mineral II of course..

[Valezra]

Got a build I just made. Couldn't figure out the smite damage addition but it looks like it's doing around 503 Damage all boosted up before smites. Build is here.

Thanks in advance and awesome work on this thread man.

Val

[gfunk]

Got a build I just made. Couldn't figure out the smite damage addition but it looks like it's doing around 503 Damage all boosted up before smites. Build is here.

Thanks in advance and awesome work on this thread man.

Val

thx for your interest in the thread.

I kinda hate doing pali DPS due to the complexity of adding in the smites. Its also a class I don't play much so I haven't confirmed some of the numbers "in the field"

Below I've done some calculations that assume you can get 1 smite and 1 divine sacrifice per complete attack seqence (5 main and 5 offhand attacks). Obviously thats alot of clicking... divine might, haste boost, zeal, madstone, smite, ds... and is quite situational (vs evil outsiders in this case).

But still, its nice damage (assuming I haven't made any mistakes)


I didn't include the force ritual as I noted that you were interested in a dps comparison with "the monster", and I haven't included force rituals in those numbers (I get 520.6 dps with haste boost IV for the monster using a full attack sequence. The higher numbers that the creator of the build posted at times may have been due to a higher attack rate with a broken attack chain or possilby using slightly difference numbers for attacks/second).

** edit, sorry for the smallish font. It is legible on my screem but if you cannot read it let me know and I'll post another

[Thanimal]

here are numbers for khopesh and rapier for the build you posted

Firstly, that spreadsheet is freakin' awesome!

Did you forget the +15% boost from Fighter 1? Did you consider a level of Rogue for the +6.5 (which should almost always be on because even if your teammates' DPS isn't that great it WILL be when you get done buffin' 'em up!)

If I'm right that those are missing (and that neither causes a cancelling drop in DPS that I haven't thought of), then it seems the optimized TWF Bard is around 60% of The Monster? I'd say I'd be quite happy with that, given all the other contributions a Warchanter makes.

Finally, I hate to take even more of your generous time, but if you could double-check for me that the +70% hate in the following build is enough to hold aggro from The Monster (i.e. that its DPS is not less than 60% of the Monster since 60% * 1.7 = 102%), I would be very psyched. I'm also curious if it can hold aggro from the decked out Paladin 20 vs. EO, at which point it has +120% aggro. I haven't run that computation at all, because only today did I realize that build is top-of-the-heap for non-SA best-case damage.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=190763

Thanks again for all your awesome work! I keep trying to give you more rep points, but apparently I am not loose with them and I'm supposed to "spread it around more." Sounds like a bad plan, but what do I know?

[gfunk]

Firstly, that spreadsheet is freakin' awesome!

Did you forget the +15% boost from Fighter 1? Did you consider a level of Rogue for the +6.5 (which should almost always be on because even if your teammates' DPS isn't that great it WILL be when you get done buffin' 'em up!)

If I'm right that those are missing (and that neither causes a cancelling drop in DPS that I haven't thought of), then it seems the optimized TWF Bard is around 60% of The Monster? I'd say I'd be quite happy with that, given all the other contributions a Warchanter makes.

Finally, I hate to take even more of your generous time, but if you could double-check for me that the +70% hate in the following build is enough to hold aggro from The Monster (i.e. that its DPS is not less than 60% of the Monster since 60% * 1.7 = 102%), I would be very psyched. I'm also curious if it can hold aggro from the decked out Paladin 20 vs. EO, at which point it has +120% aggro. I haven't run that computation at all, because only today did I realize that build is top-of-the-heap for non-SA best-case damage.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=190763

Thanks again for all your awesome work! I keep trying to give you more rep points, but apparently I am not loose with them and I'm supposed to "spread it around more." Sounds like a bad plan, but what do I know?

I didnt put in haste boost for the above bard builds, so you could add roughly 15% (peak).
also, those builds are a with 2 lvls of fighter, so a lvl of rogue would add some backstabbing dps (however the dwarf would lose a point of str). Still, most people are pretty happy to have any sort of dps out of a bard... many bards just kinda stand around (they are the ultimate pikers).

Here is monster vs. hate monster side by side comparison in favored and non-favored scenarios. Note, that I didn't include tharnes in the "hate monster" because you are planning on holding agro. The monster numbers have tharnes in them, even though they will get agro from most other people (except dedicated agro generators). I do not think you will have a problem holding agro, even considering that you won't be counting on haste boost all the time.

I'm assuming I read your info correctly and that you didnt have WF power attack enhancements.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Leafy, haven't been keeping up with the latest developments in this thread, but I think the dps potential of a WF frenzied bezerker barbarian with all of the THF feats and enhancements to glancing blows is being underestimated. Now that special effects such as burst, holy, blast are potentially going off on glancing blows, I think this build has a higher dps than many people think

Are you taking the glancing blows calculations into account in your graphs?

Garth

[Thanimal]

Leafy, haven't been keeping up with the latest developments in this thread, but I think the dps potential of a WF frenzied bezerker barbarian with all of the THF feats and enhancements to glancing blows is being underestimated. Now that special effects such as burst, holy, blast are potentially going off on glancing blows, I think this build has a higher dps than many people think

Are you taking the glancing blows calculations into account in your graphs?

Garth

This thread is only TWF I think?

[Thanimal]

I didnt put in haste boost for the above bard builds, so you could add roughly 15% (peak).
also, those builds are a with 2 lvls of fighter, so a lvl of rogue would add some backstabbing dps (however the dwarf would lose a point of str). Still, most people are pretty happy to have any sort of dps out of a bard... many bards just kinda stand around (they are the ultimate pikers).

Here is monster vs. hate monster side by side comparison in favored and non-favored scenarios. Note, that I didn't include tharnes in the "hate monster" because you are planning on holding agro. The monster numbers have tharnes in them, even though they will get agro from most other people (except dedicated agro generators). I do not think you will have a problem holding agro, even considering that you won't be counting on haste boost all the time. At non boosted dps of 342.9 *1.7 = 582.9 you shouldnt have trouble holding agro from anyone unless its some sort of rogue or rogue multiclass that doesn't have agro mitigation enhancements... and even then it would only be for a second as their dps would quickly drop without backstab/sneak attack.

I'm assuming I read your info correctly and that you didnt have WF power attack enhancements.

THANKS so much!

I'm glad that margin looks big, because you've been too generous to The Hate Monster. Not only are you correct that the build doesn't take WF PA enhancements, but the reason it doesn't is that its true purpose is to tank so against the red-names it will be in Combat Expertise mode. So for the aggro-holding comparison the build should be in CE mode, with no PA at all.

Secondly, one of the greensteel weapons must have a +4 Insight bonus on it, I think. (I suppose theoretically it's possible to have a +3 Dodge Ring and then put the +4 Insight on the DT Docent, but I'd rather have the slot available for something else if possible.)

Next, you appear to have given me Kensai bonuses, which I don't get since I'm Stalwart Defender. That includes the STR surge. (Although I do get some of that [+3 STR] from Defender stance if we're talking about level 20.)

On the other hand, I think I'm generally willing to count my Haste Boosts because my "job description" requires me to save them all for the guy I *must* hold aggro against. So I'm expecting to blow 5 haste boosts in the first few minutes of any final battle, to help establish a big hate lead. But it's certainly good to consider "with" and "without" scenarios.

[gfunk]

THANKS so much!

I'm glad that margin looks big, because you've been too generous to The Hate Monster. Not only are you correct that the build doesn't take WF PA enhancements, but the reason it doesn't is that its true purpose is to tank so against the red-names it will be in Combat Expertise mode. So for the aggro-holding comparison the build should be in CE mode, with no PA at all.

Secondly, one of the greensteel weapons must have a +4 Insight bonus on it, I think. (I suppose theoretically it's possible to have a +3 Dodge Ring and then put the +4 Insight on the DT Docent, but I'd rather have the slot available for something else if possible.)

Next, you appear to have given me Kensai bonuses, which I don't get since I'm Stalwart Defender. That includes the STR surge. (Although I do get some of that [+3 STR] from Defender stance if we're talking about level 20.)

On the other hand, I think I'm generally willing to count my Haste Boosts because my "job description" requires me to save them all for the guy I *must* hold aggro against. So I'm expecting to blow 5 haste boosts in the first few minutes of any final battle, to help establish a big hate lead. But it's certainly good to consider "with" and "without" scenarios.

yeah.. missed a few things.. the kensai bonus shouldnt be there, and i didnt really think about the insight weapon (though I would put in on the docent personally). I updated the post to reflect this

[gfunk]

This thread is only TWF I think?

supposed to be mostly TWF.. I've mostly avoided THF because of all the changes in mod 9 (esp concerning glancing blow effect procs). I did make a post about it in this thread (#159) in hopes to get some verifyable and consistant feedback but no such luck.

Leafy, haven't been keeping up with the latest developments in this thread, but I think the dps potential of a WF frenzied bezerker barbarian with all of the THF feats and enhancements to glancing blows is being underestimated. Now that special effects such as burst, holy, blast are potentially going off on glancing blows, I think this build has a higher dps than many people think

Are you taking the glancing blows calculations into account in your graphs?

Garth

glancing blows take the place of offhand damage in the 2nd column, so yeah, I was taking them into account. I didn't include vicious in glancing blow damage which seems to be a mistake, as most people are telling me now that you get it on 100% of your glancing blows. Also, I put crit effects on glancing blows which probably isn't right... its a work in progress...

[Thanimal]

yeah.. missed a few things.. the kensai bonus shouldnt be there, and i didnt really think about the insight weapon (though I would put in on the docent personally). I updated the post to reflect this

Still giving HM the full STR surge, I think?

Nevertheless, these numbers are roughly what I got and are encouraging. When similarly equipped, it seems the Hate Monster (in CE and with Insight weapon) can maintain over 70% of the DPS of the Monster, which then translate to about 120% of the hate. (Slightly less when both are haste-boosted since Monster fits the max Haste Boost and I didn't.) That's a tolerable margin I think.

And, of course, some day at level 20 the Hate multiplier becomes +120% (or 2.2x) which should "trivally" stay ahead of everyone.

Thanks for the help to confirm.

[gfunk]

Still giving HM the full STR surge, I think?

Nevertheless, these numbers are roughly what I got and are encouraging. When similarly equipped, it seems the Hate Monster (in CE and with Insight weapon) can maintain over 70% of the DPS of the Monster, which then translate to about 120% of the hate. (Slightly less when both are haste-boosted since Monster fits the max Haste Boost and I didn't.) That's a tolerable margin I think.

And, of course, some day at level 20 the Hate multiplier becomes +120% (or 2.2x) which should "trivally" stay ahead of everyone.

Thanks for the help to confirm.

grrr.. I hate missing all the little details..I'm going to blame it on the weak coffee im drinking today.

Yeah.. still had str surge in. Without it you drop to 293.9 (pre haste boost). Honestly though, if I was playing a monster build I would seriously consider putting on the tharnes set, to get some agro mitigation (so I could get the sneak attack more frequently). I'll update the post a little later.

[Arkat]

Hey gfunk, assuming you can see the DDO Beta Forums and you don't mind, could you take a look at this FvS build and put it through your process?

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...6&postcount=29

Here're my damage calcs but I included Haste but did not include double madstone nor did I include Tharne's. I also didn't include Weapon Effects like Force Ritual nor the stuff from Min II but if you could add that stuff, I'd appreciate it.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...7&postcount=32

Thanks for your time.

[gfunk]

Hey gfunk, assuming you can see the DDO Beta Forums and you don't mind, could you take a look at this FvS build and put it through your process?

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...6&postcount=29

Here're my damage calcs but I included Haste but did not include double madstone nor did I include Tharne's. I also didn't include Weapon Effects like Force Ritual nor the stuff from Min II but if you could add that stuff, I'd appreciate it.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...7&postcount=32

Thanks for your time.

haste is included in all my previous calcs.. perhaps it isnt obvious. I almost always include somewhat optimistic things like double madstone (unless grossly impractical), str+4 tome, bard songs, all damaging tiers on gs. I don't include force rituals or scourge choker typically.
Also, my bard songs area bit out of date.. at +7, but its all relative and i would have to change all the calcs then (something ill get around to)

[Arkat]

Thanks gfunk!

[Arkat]

Hey gfunk, I'm awfully sorry but my build cannot get the class-based weapon specialization enhancements. Evidently a FvS qualifies for Tier I at 15th level and Tier II at 18th level. My build only allows for 12 levels of FvS.

Could you re-do the chart to reflect that?

Thanks verry much.

[spifflove]

My halfling rulz all barbs!

[Hilltrot]

Gfunk, What AC did you use for this?

It's pretty important. Why did you leave it off your initial post?

[gfunk]

My halfling rulz all barbs!

as long as he doesnt get agro

Gfunk, What AC did you use for this?

It's pretty important. Why did you leave it off your initial post?

Attack bonus is a whole other factor that would make things too complicated. Most of the builds listed here hit most content on a 1 due to the equipement and buffs considered (you can build up a very good attack bonus even on a sub-par build with the right combination of gear, buffs, and positioning). There are obviously some exceptions like some beholders for example, and a few red names.

Most people tend to think of performance vs. purple names like the pit fiend and horned devil (which are both fairly low AC). In many other situations (vs. trash) it becomes less important to kill mobs with dps and more important to stun, blind, or otherwise disable them (at which point the importance of attack bonus starts to fluctuate wildly)

If you start considering AC, then you should also start considering the effects of agro. You then need to think about if the build in question is breaking their attack chain or not, which has implications on attack rate and attack bonus. At that point it becomes much too complex to plot on a linear chart, and we would need to start using a graph. Graphs can easily become to cluttered when you add in too many data groups, so its rather impractical to compare large numbers of builds this way (though its quite useful for looking at how a half dozen or so perform over a range of Armor classes).

In mod 9 we will have the complicating factor of grazing blows which will really make things messy (if there are alot of high AC mobs coming our way.. I think there will be)

So in the end, this is a simple approach of max dps assuming you can hit on a 2 or better (thats the way most power gamers think about it from what I can tell). A more complex approach would neccesarily have to include less builds