Review of TWF relative DPS

[Crarites]

vs Evil Outsiders, a pure paladin beats you.

My numbers say you are incorrect. I was just offering a build type that should be on this list.

[Borror0]

My numbers say you are incorrect.

Well, my numbers are saying you are wrong... and we are two to have ran the numbers.

Perhaps you should consider looking over our numbers?

[gfunk]

Very interesting...

So what does this say about all those Shroud groups out there that are looking for DPS but have the Rogue icon turned off?

Well, remember Harry has 50% fortification which reduces rogue dps and is not reflected in my numbers (I'll probably include a seperate chart for that st some point, I've held off because practical experience has led me to believe that I'm getting backstabbing damage >50% of the time, but I want to gather some statistics to check that).

I think the main reason for rejecting rogues isn't because people think that rogues have low dps, it's just because of the bad repuation created by the vast numbers of bad rogues. In particular there seems to be a large proportion or rogues that neglect to select subtle backstabbing in their enhancement list.

With the kind of damage they output and no subtle backstabbing, they will quickly get agro, then lose it again as their damage drops from loss of sneak attack. Damage then bounces up again as agro is lost, yielding inconsistant agro focus which is distressing to clerics. I suspect that shroud leaders will learn about how good rogues can be at the same time that rogues learn about agro management.

[EinarMal]

Dwarf Strength based Rogue 13/Ranger 6/Barbarian 1

Str 36=18 +5 Levels +3 Tome +6 Item +2 Rage +2 Rams

w/ Khopesh or Daxes

Sneak
7d6 +12 (Enh.) +8(VOD)

FE +6

Damage Profile:
Str 13
Sneak 44.5 (3.5*7 +12 +8)
FE 6
Rams 2
Weapon 5
PA 6

Should be right at the top...

[Crarites]

Perhaps you should consider looking over our numbers?

I would if someone who had a habit of being correct were saying I was wrong.

[gfunk]

Dwarf Strength based Rogue 13/Ranger 6/Barbarian 1

Str 36=18 +5 Levels +3 Tome +6 Item +2 Rage +2 Rams

w/ Khopesh or Daxes

Sneak
7d6 +12 (Enh.) +8(VOD)

FE +6

Damage Profile:
Str 13
Sneak 44.5 (3.5*7 +12 +8)
FE 6
Rams 2
Weapon 5
PA 6

Should be right at the top...

Just quickly (did this one before others as you provided some build information.. makes it quicker to think about)


Dwarf Strength based Rogue 13/Ranger 6/Barbarian 1 (dwarven axes)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
2 / 2 .. dwarven axe enhancements
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
6 / 6 .. power attack
2 / 2 rams might
6 / 6 favored enemy
.......... .. 33 unbuffed str (18bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
.. 4 str (barb rage)
2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
17 / 8 .. 45 str (total)
46 / 37 .. total damage modifier

57 / 48 .. avg normal damage (GS dwarwven axe)
189 / 162 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
48.45 / 40.8 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
18.9 / 16.2 .. weighted crit damage (*2/20)

67.35 / 57 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
23.275 / 23.275 .. Average backstabbing damage (7d6)
11.4 / 11.4 .. sneak attack training IV (12*19/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
109.625 / 99.275 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
1.1 / 1.1 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*2/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
14.15 14.15 .. total weapon effects
123.775 113.425 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
618.875 / 567.125 .. total avg damage per round
1186 .. total main + off hand
1304.6 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity



Khopesh will be better but it would make more sense to go WF (for +9 to power attack) if you were to do that and were building for dps only (I'll post a WF version at some point). You wouldn't be able to provide a builder enhancement list by any chance?

[Cold_Stele]

My numbers say you are incorrect.

Did you include Divine Might III/IV in your calcs? That's where people often get incorrect numbers for the pure Pally DPS, accidentally omitting that Pallies get more DM damage from 15 onwards.

Tempest KotC definitely gets more DPS against non-EO's though.

[EinarMal]

Khopesh will be better but it would make more sense to go WF (for +9 to power attack) if you were to do that and were building for dps only (I'll post a WF version at some point). You wouldn't be able to provide a builder enhancement list by any chance?

Well the one thing you would have to watch on a Rogue build like that is to-hit. I am not sure if -9 to hit, and no racial enhancements would work all that well. Although for just a DPS contest you could do it.

[Aesop]

Very interesting...

So what does this say about all those Shroud groups out there that are looking for DPS but have the Rogue icon turned off?

Same thing it always has.

People don't know what a good rogue can do


Aesop

[Borror0]

People don't know what a good rogue can do

Traps and keeping my backpack warm.

[gfunk]

Well the one thing you would have to watch on a Rogue build like that is to-hit. I am not sure if -9 to hit, and no racial enhancements would work all that well. Although for just a DPS contest you could do it.

Yep... thats the thing currently, not factoring in to-hit bonus. However, the build is relying on sneak attack so they get +5 to hit from the goggles and what ever enhancements they have into sneak attack accuracy. Personally, I wouldn't want to make many of these builds myself. I wouldn't make a build that rely on just 2 favored enemies for a large portion of their dps, though I'm sure that works well for people who are just running the current end game content.

[Aesop]

Traps and keeping my backpack warm.

I said a good rogue not some schlep rogue

[Borror0]

I said a good rogue not some schlep rogue

Well, bad rogues don't keep my backpack warm.

[Crarites]

Did you include Divine Might III/IV in your calcs? That's where people often get incorrect numbers for the pure Pally DPS, accidentally omitting that Pallies get more DM damage from 15 onwards.

Tempest KotC definitely gets more DPS against non-EO's though.

Yes, I included those enhancements in my calculation. I like this thread mainly because I've built something similar for my own use. While they certainly aren't the same they are close enough I'm curious as to where gfunk will place a tempest zeal build. I think he should use human however in the build example for this particular build.

[gfunk]

Tempest I Knight of the Chalice II
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
8 / 8 .. power attack
4 / 4 .. paladin divine might II
3 / 3 .. divine favor (spell)
2 / 2 rams might
6 / 6 .. favored enemies
.......... .. 31 unbuffed str (16 bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
.. 2 str (rams might)
14 / 7 .. 39 str (total)
50 / 43 .. total damage modifier
55.5 / 48.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
184.5 / 163.5 .. avg crit damage (+6dmg to crits w/bloodstone)
41.625 / 36.375 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
36.9 / 32.7 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
78.525 / 69.075 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
6.65 / 6.65 .. Average evil outsider damage (2d6)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
92.775 / 83.325 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
108.025 98.575 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
540.125 / 492.875 .. total avg damage per round
1033 .. total main + off hand (vs evil outsiders, not including smites)
1136.3 .. zeal (10%)
1249.93 tempest (10%) if stacking multiplicitavely (i.e. 1.10*1.10 = 1.21)
1239.6 (if 10%+10% =20%)

Smiting
94.5 / 87.5 .. avg reg smite damage (GS Khopesh)
502.5 / 467.5 .. avg crit smite damage (+6dmg to crits w/bloodstone)
70.875 / 65.625 .. weighted reg smite damage (*13/20)
100.5 / 93.5 .. weighted crit smite damage (*6/20)
171.375 159.125 .. avg smite/hand
330.5 .. total avg smite
1363.5 .. incl above + 1 smite/round
1499.85 .. zeal (10%)
1649.835 tempest (10%) if stacking multiplicitavely (i.e. 1.10*1.10 = 1.21)
1636.2 (if 10%+10% =20%)

Tempest I Knight of the Chalice II (not vs evil outsiders)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
8 / 8 .. power attack
4 / 4 .. paladin divine might II
3 / 3 .. divine favor (spell)
2 / 2 .. rams might
0 / 0 .. favored enemies
.......... .. 31 unbuffed str (16 bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
.. 2 str (rams might)
14 / 7 .. 39 str (total)
44 / 37 .. total damage modifier
49.5 / 42.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
166.5 / 145.5 .. avg crit damage (+6dmg to crits w/bloodstone)
37.125 / 31.875 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
33.3 / 29.1 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
70.425 / 60.975 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
0 / 0 .. Average evil outsider damage (2d6)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
78.025 / 68.575 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
93.275 83.825 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
466.375 / 419.125 .. total avg damage per round
885.5 .. total main + off hand (vs evil outsiders, not including smites)
974.05 .. zeal (10%)
1071.455 tempest (10%) if stacking multiplicitavely (i.e. 1.10*1.10 = 1.21)
1062.6 (if 10%+10% =20%)


Here are my numbers for the ranger 6/ pali 14 tempest/chalice build. I kept the build as WF for comparability with the pure pali numbers that I posted, though I suppose a human version of both would be easier to build with the required charisma.

I included a couple of different numbers reflecting the different possibilities for how the zeal and tempest interact with each other. All other speed boost numbers in the table in page 1 are multiplied, so those are the numbers I've posted on page one for this build. Note, that depending on how you apply the attack speed, the pure pali will either be slightly ahead or slightly behind.

I know the comparison is a contentious issue with all you pali fans out there, and honestly the difference in dps between the two is really to close to call. Both will do exceptional damage when fighting evil outsiders.

[gfunk]

Also, added in numbers for Warforged barbarian with frenzy I only, death frenzy only, and double frenzy (calc details here: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=46 ) summary chart in first post

[gfunk]

thx to EinarMal for the inspiration for this one.. (only changed race). Wasn't really intending to post builds in this thread much, just really trying to evaluate what is already out there but this one is fun. I think I will post a build in the rogue forums on this guy and call him the Tasmanian Devil:


halfling Strength based Rogue (acrobat)13/Ranger 6/Barbarian 1 (khopesh)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon

7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
6 / 6 .. power attack

2 / 2 rams might
6 / 6 favored enemy
.......... .. 31 unbuffed str (16 bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
.......... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 4 str (barb rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
16 / 8 .. 43 str (total)
43 / 35 .. total damage modifier

48.5 / 40.5 .. avg normal damage (GS khopesh)
163.5 / 139.5 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
36.375 / 30.375 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
32.7 / 27.9 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
69.075 / 58.275 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
23.275 / 23.275 .. Average backstabbing damage (7d6)
11.4 / 11.4 .. sneak attack training IV
7.6 / 7.6 .. halfling guile
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
118.95 / 108.15 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
134.2 123.4 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
671 / 617 .. total avg damage per round
1288 .. total main + off hand
1416.8 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1841.84 *1.3 haste boost IV


Halfling Rogue (assassin) 13/Ranger(tempest) 6/Barbarian 1
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
6 / 6 .. power attack
2 / 2 rams might
6 / 6 favored enemy
.......... .. 31 unbuffed str (16 bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
.......... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 4 str (barb rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
16 / 8 .. 43 str (total)
43 / 35 .. total damage modifier

48.5 / 40.5 .. avg normal damage (GS khopesh)
175.5 / 151.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
36.375 / 30.375 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
35.1 / 30.3 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
71.475 / 60.675 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
23.275 / 23.275 .. Average backstabbing damage (7d6)
11.4 / 11.4 .. sneak attack training IV
7.6 / 7.6 .. halfling guile
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
121.35 / 110.55 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
136.6 125.8 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
683 / 629 .. total avg damage per round
1312 .. total main + off hand
1443.2 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1876.16 *1.3 haste boost IV


...vicious little guy...will need major agro mitigation enhancements/gear, but would rock with a couple radience khopeshes.

[EinarMal]

thx to EinarMal for the inspiration for this one.. (only changed race). Wasn't really intending to post builds in this thread much, just really trying to evaluate what is already out there but this one is fun. I think I will post a build in the rogue forums on this guy and call him the Tasmanian Devil:

halfling Strength based Rogue 13/Ranger 6/Barbarian 1 (khopesh)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
8 / 8 .. halfling guile
8 / 8 .. tharnes
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
6 / 6 .. power attack
12 / 12 .. sneak attack training IV
2 / 2 rams might
6 / 6 favored enemy
............. 31 unbuffed str (16 bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
.............. 2 str (rams)
.............. 2 str (rage)
.............. 4 str (barb rage)
.............. 2 str (madstone 1)
.............. 2 str (madstone 2)
16 / 8 .. 43 str (total)
71 / 63 .. total damage modifier

76.5 / 68.5 .. avg normal damage (GS khopesh)
247.5 / 223.5 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
57.375 / 51.375 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
49.5 / 44.7 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
106.875 / 96.075 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
23.275 / 23.275 .. Average backstabbing damage (7d6)
130.15 / 119.35 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier III(11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
17.45 17.45 .. total weapon effects
147.6 136.8 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
738 / 684 .. total avg damage per round
1422 .. total main + off hand
1564.2 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity
2033.46 *1.3 haste boost IV

...vicious little guy...will need major agro mitigation enhancements/gear, but would rock with a couple radience khopeshes.

Nice one! Would definitely be fun, fast run speed with Barbarian and Acrobat II. The Dwarf build is one I made long ago when toughness enhancements were much different than now.

The nice thing about it is you are little less sneak attack dependent so don't suck quite so bad against undead (a good FE choice) and strength based versus most Rogue builds. The downside is unless you grind out a lot of gear you take in a lot of damage. I use blur scrolls and stoneskin on my Dwarf.

[Borror0]

Nice color usage in the OP. Maybe you should use red for Frenzies, so we can see when one is self-damaging.

[gfunk]

Nice color usage in the OP. Maybe you should use red for Frenzies, so we can see when one is self-damaging.

done, thx