Review of TWF relative DPS

[maddmatt70]

All the barbs could go 11 PA, Dwarves could go 8.
Crit rage barbs are low becuase they get it at lvl 14, and are being compaired to much higher level (and better) enhancements.

Ooooh.. Let me do one

Kensai Fighter Greataxe
main / offhand
5 weapon
16 power attack
4 kensai
2 fighter enh
4 weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.............36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
...............8 str (power surge)
...............2 str (rage)
...............2 str (madstone 1)
...............2 str (madstone 2)
30 (50 str total)
61 total damage modifier

71.5 avg regular damage (GS Greataxe)
256.5 avg crit damage (+14 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
57.2 weighted reg damage (*16/20)
38.475 weighted crit damage (*3/20)
95.675 Average unhasted damage per swing

5 # of attacks per round
478.375 total avg damage per round
526.2125 * 1.10 melee alacrity


35.75 damge per glancing blow (half of main damage)
3 # glancing blows per round
107.25 glancing blow damage per round
117.975 * 1.1 melee alacrity

Total: 644.1875

That is a whole different can of worms thf. You could post thf builds barbarian 20, fighter 20, rogue 19 barbarian 1 acrobat q-staff, paladin 20 and do a comparison of those as well lol..

[Angelus_dead]

[COLOR=white]DPS TABLE (from below)

I see no Inspire Courage in the results. I also don't see Tharne's Goggles.

Omitting those factors which are part of real DDO DPS makes Tempest, Paladin, and Kensai look relatively worse than they actually are.

[Monkey_Archer]

I see no Inspire Courage in the results. I also don't see Tharne's Goggles.

Omitting those factors which are part of real DDO DPS makes Tempest, Paladin, and Kensai look relatively worse than they actually are.

Yep.... was just a matter of time before someone brought GEAR into a class comparison.

Lets redo all the number for those with tharnes...
then redo for weapon effects...
then redo with both..
then redo for bard buffs but no tharnes..
then redo for bard buffs and tharnes
then redo for Warchanter..
then redo for warchanter + effects + tharnes

All thats nice but NOW you must do choker too...

[gfunk]

I see no Inspire Courage in the results. I also don't see Tharne's Goggles.

Omitting those factors which are part of real DDO DPS makes Tempest, Paladin, and Kensai look relatively worse than they actually are.

I could include inspire courage and prayer, though I wanted to make the charts as self-buffed. Personally I only see a bard in ~60% of the raids I run, and maybe 10% of the quests, so I don't like to include it in how I personally think about dps (im a pessimist). That said, it probably is a good idea to have a seperate "buffed" chart.

Also, its a bit tricky to add in tharnes, though perhaps I can do it on a seperate table. Obviously, it would only impact your dps in places where you don't have agro (and even my dex based ranger gets agro a lot). I included sneak attack damage on the rogue (without tharnes) as they have enhancements to mitigate agro, and its a central aspect of the class. I will likely include the numbers for the melees with Tharnes in a seperate "non-agro" table.

[maddmatt70]

Yep.... was just a matter of time before someone brought GEAR into a class comparison.

Lets redo all the number for those with tharnes...
then redo for weapon effects...
then redo with both..
then redo for bard buffs but no tharnes..
then redo for bard buffs and tharnes
then redo for Warchanter..
then redo for warchanter + effects + tharnes

All thats nice but NOW you must do choker too...

Well I would say the tharnes gogles is as easy to acquire as the madstone boots right now. For both it takes about 20 runs to have about 90% certainty of having one of each which take a little less then 60 days.

[gfunk]

Yep.... was just a matter of time before someone brought GEAR into a class comparison.

Lets redo all the number for those with tharnes...
then redo for weapon effects...
then redo with both..
then redo for bard buffs but no tharnes..
then redo for bard buffs and tharnes
then redo for Warchanter..
then redo for warchanter + effects + tharnes

All thats nice but NOW you must do choker too...

lol.. I took out the choker because of its limitations...

Effects are complicated. Which weapon should i use? min II, lightning strike? radience for the rogue? triple pos? It opens up a whole other can of worms, though I will consider doing it if I am super-bored at work over the next couple of weeks.

[Monkey_Archer]

Well I would say the tharnes gogles is as easy to acquire as the madstone boots right now. For both it takes about 20 runs to have about 90% certainty of having one of each which take a little less then 60 days.

Its not supposed to be hard... but when your fighter sees that +3 str tome for #20 waiting 120 days isnt out of the question

tharnes adds +8 damage x 5 attacks x 2 weapons = 80 damage per round
or 88 with 10% alacrity..
for a difference of 8 damage per round..
given that its only when you dont have agro, and not every1 has it... i think its more accurate to leave it out anyway.

In other words: Add 8 to tempest kensai pali if you must....

[gfunk]

Oh and FYI divine favor actually is now +3 and not +6 the devs fixed this a few mods ago to better reflect the same change in 3.5 D&D.

thx.. ill get to that

[maddmatt70]

Its not supposed to be hard... but when your fighter sees that +3 str tome for #20 waiting 120 days isnt out of the question

tharnes adds +8 damage x 5 attacks x 2 weapons = 80 damage per round
or 88 with 10% alacrity..
for a difference of 8 damage per round..
given that its only when you dont have agro, and not every1 has it... i think its more accurate to leave it out anyway.

This is one of those hey who do you run with and situational questions. On a shroud pounding on Harry everybody who has one of these gets the tharnes at least if that one person doesn't have aggro. The folks I run with for shroud speeds it is more the question of who doesn't have one and this is usually a player who is playing a newer character. On average I would say 5 out of the 7 melee on these shrouds are getting tharnes damage on Harry - the guy with aggro and the 1 melee who doesn't have the goggles. If you are fighting different mobs and the like and are spread out so you wouldn't get sneak damage of course then it is harder to count tharnes.

[Cold_Stele]

Forgive me if it's been mentioned - your stats are too high on KotC.

Even assuming three +4 tomes you're example has base Str 18, Dex 13, Cha 16. That's 31 points right there. Realistically Str needs to be 16 base?

[gfunk]

Forgive me if it's been mentioned - your stats are too high on KotC.

Even assuming three +4 tomes you're example has base Str 18, Dex 13, Cha 16. That's 31 points right there. Realistically Str needs to be 16 base?

yeah... there are a few unrealistic things here and there in the "builds" (particularily with the enhancements picked, though I believe all of them are "possible" just not always optimal for the rest of the build). I'll try and change them to coincide with the majority of peoples expectations regarding the class. Your suggestion makes sense, as I doubt too many pali's would go for an 18 base str (though as previously mentioned my familiarity with the pali class is fairly poor, having only taken one up to mid levels before deleting)

[Monkey_Archer]

This is one of those hey who do you run with and situational questions. On a shroud pounding on Harry everybody who has one of these gets the tharnes at least if that one person doesn't have aggro. The folks I run with for shroud speeds it is more the question of who doesn't have one and this is usually a player who is playing a newer character. On average I would say 5 out of the 7 melee on these shrouds are getting tharnes damage on Harry - the guy with aggro and the 1 melee who doesn't have the goggles. If you are fighting different mobs and the like and are spread out so you wouldn't get sneak damage of course then it is harder to count tharnes.

Harry also has 50%? fortification for only 40 damage per round 44 with alacrity resulting in 4 extra damage per round for the fast attacking types...
So add 4 damage for one of the few situations where you are guaranteed to get sneak attack damage.

3 good reasons not to include tharnes:
1) Not everybody has it
2) This is a class comparison
3) It is nearly impossible to calculate "actual" dps gains as every situation will be different.

[gfunk]

moved to post #46

[gfunk]

Harry also has 50%? fortification for only 40 damage per round 44 with alacrity resulting in 4 extra damage per round for the fast attacking types...
So add 4 damage for one of the few situations where you are guaranteed to get sneak attack damage.

3 good reasons not to include tharnes:
1) Not everybody has it
2) This is a class comparison
3) It is nearly impossible to calculate "actual" dps gains as every situation will be different.

3) It is tough, but I think that the DDO community thinks of DPS in certain "reference" situations,

i.e. DPS while attacking Harry, DPS vs trash mobs, DPS vs Sally as tank, DPS vs Sally as non-agro combatants, DPS vs uncritable opponents, etc etc..

At some point I would like to include 50% fortification in my numbers. I would also like to do a complete combat breakdown (in a reference situation such as attacking harry) that would estimate

a) how much damage each build would take,
b) how much healing resources they would require,
c) how much actual dps would they output taking into consideration attack bonus

Time permitting....

[gfunk]

Heya Gfunk

I like your idea of comparing the classes dps like this. We all know that a LOT of people are actually very clueless about how much DPS their classes actually deal.

Just a few thoughts..
First I really think you should add weapon effects, as builds with more attacks gets more benefit from them

And secondly, you are still counting in haste boosts as 30%, tempest as 10% so why not just make it damage per second instead of damage per round?

As previously mentioned, weapon effects are tough to include because every1 uses different weapons (though mineral II would be my choice as a comparison weapon if i picked one).

And I'm not quite ready to delve into damage per second. Perhaps i will include it when cforce's thread comes to a conclusion:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172819

If you wish to do it for your own purposes, it wouldn't be hard to just take the numbers I have posted, and divide them by time/round

[EinarMal]

Pretty cool how high up Colossus (12 fighter / 8 barbarian) charted. At least that gives hope for odd ball builds still having some viability beyond the cookie cutter stuff.

[Aaxeyu]

As previously mentioned, weapon effects are tough to include because every1 uses different weapons (though mineral II would be my choice as a comparison weapon if i picked one).

And I'm not quite ready to delve into damage per second. Perhaps i will include it when cforce's thread comes to a conclusion:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172819

If you wish to do it for your own purposes, it wouldn't be hard to just take the numbers I have posted, and divide them by time/round

You could just include mineral II on every build, it might not be perfect but it better than no weapon effects at all.

You could aswell use damage per second as your calcs are already assuming that the speedboosts are not working as Eladrin said.

I have made a calc in an excel sheet that I use when calculating dps..

[Cold_Stele]

Hey gfunk did you add another +2 to pure Kensai for Sup Wpn Spec yet?

For what it's worth I do think Min II is a universal constant so to speak. The Imp crit range classes (old Barb, kensai) are not being given accurate numbers as burst/blast damage isn't being calculated.

Btw - this is an excellent thread bro. thanks for your hard work.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

You missed monk/16 off your table. Would be interesting to know monk with +5 holy burst wraps vs stunned mob with tharne's goggles.

Garth

[gfunk]

For what it's worth I do think Min II is a universal constant so to speak. The Imp crit range classes (old Barb, kensai) are not being given accurate numbers as burst/blast damage isn't being calculated.

I'm sort of convinced to add this in now, though it won't be until monday at least (this stuff is best left for the office).

You missed monk/16 off your table. Would be interesting to know monk with +5 holy burst wraps vs stunned mob with tharne's goggles.

Garth

I was wondering when someone would ask about monk...might as well ask about battle sorcs and flerics..

Just kidding. I will include monk, however I wanted to start with the classes that were more commonly cited in terms of high dps. Plus, I am not as familiar which configurations of the monk provide the class with it's highest dps (having never capped one myself). Over the next bit I'll look into it and add it in.

And despite my kidding about it, I probably will try and add in the other "non-traditional" melee types as time goes on. I'm sort of thinking of it as a long term project to pass time when I'm bored.