Review of TWF relative DPS

[gfunk]

<WARNING. this thread contains math>

This thread is intended as a reference to further explore the dps potential of various builds"

-see post #2 for charts, and updated calculation details (moving and updating from various posts later in thread, several of which are out of date)
-updated to post mod 7 tier III effects (some calc details in ref posts include older weapon descriptions)
-most builds include: madstone, bloodstone, tharnes, +4 tomes*, mineral II weapons (damaging 3rd tiers).
-standard buffs include: prayer (n/a on builds with divine favor), inspire courage (currently at +7 throughout this thread, at some point I'll have to update to +9), and haste.

-most posted calculations include 100% sneak attack damage. If you wish to get an idea of what the changes are with less sneak attack damage, you can look at the DPS vs fortification in post #2 (i.e. 50% fort also means that only 50% of your sneak attack gets through). If you have a build that rely's heavily on sneak attack for your DPS, you can improve your damage greatly (vs. trash) by wielding radience weapons which blind your foe and give you 100% sneak attack. High dps sneak attack builds also need agro mitigation like subtle backstabbing. treason or tharnes wrath.

-my goal is not to "prove anything" about which build is better or worse in this thread. I hope this becomes a thread for objective analysis of the capability of the damage potential of different classes. I hope to present the data in an unbiased manner. I don't believe that I have any sort of agenda because I actually don't build any of the highest DPS characters. I personally get more enjoyment out of making the best out of what I have (I keep the same characters around and just try and re-work them from time to time).

-I would like to include information about THF and Ranged combat at some point, however there are a few details that need to be worked out first (wrt glancing blow damage, procs, crit effects and ranged attack rate)

Other useful links:

cforces attack speed index: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172819 (resource for attack speeds)
ddo wiki attack progression page: http://ddowiki.com/page/Combo_chain (resource for attack chains and BAB's)
ddo wiki greensteel weapon base damage: http://ddowiki.com/page/Green_Steel_Weapons
rons character planner: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=87799 (many of the feats and enhancements are more accurate/up to date then the ddo compendium!)


DPS … (dps considering unbroken full attack progression)
179.1 … elf , cleric 18 / monk 2, w/ longswords , wo/ divine might , itwf ,
188.7 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2, w/ kamas , wo/ divine might , gtwf ,
190.2 … elf , cleric 18 / monk 2, w/ rapiers , wo/ divine might , itwf ,
195.1 … dwarf , cleric 18 / monk 2, w/ dwarven axes , w/ divine might , itwf ,
196.4 … elf , cleric 18 / monk 2, w/ longswords , w/ divine might , itwf ,
197.4 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2 ,w/ khopeshes , wo/ divine might , itwf ,
201.2 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2 ,w/ handaxes , wo/ divine might , gtwf ,
205.3 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2 ,w/ daggers , wo/ divine might , gtwf ,
208.3 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2 ,w/ longsword/handaxe , wo/ divine might , gtwf ,
208.9 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2 , w/ kamas , w/ divine might , gtwf ,
209.0 … elf , cleric 18 / monk 2 ,w/ rapiers , w/ divine might , itwf ,
212.5 … dwarf , cleric 18 / monk 2 ,w/ dwarven axes , w/ divine might , itwf ,
213.3 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ longswords , wo/ divine might , gtwf ,
217.7 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ khopeshes , w/ divine might , itwf ,
226.3 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ rapiers , wo/ divine might , gtwf ,
227.3 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ handaxes , w/ divine might , gtwf ,
227.4 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ daggers , w/ divine might , gtwf ,
230.4 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ longsword/handaxe , w/ divine might , gtwf ,
235.5 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ longswords , w/ divine might , gtwf ,
249.1 … halfling , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ khopeshes , without sneak attack ,
250.3 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ rapiers , w/ divine might , gtwf ,
275.1 … warforged , rogue 20, assassin III w/ khopeshes , without sneak attack ,
275.7 … halfling , cleric 18 / monk 2, w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack ,
296.8 … elf , ranger 20, tempest III , w/ rapiers , vs. non-favored ,
269.9 … dwarf , rogue 13 / ranger 6 / barbarian 1 , acrobat II , tempest I , w/ dwarven axes , vs. non-favored ,
306.4 … halfling , rogue 13 / ranger 6 / barbarian 1 , acrobat II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. non-favored ,
307.8 … dwarf , fighter 20, defender III , w/ dwarven axes ,
324.7 … human , ranger 18 / monk 1 rogue 1, tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. non favored ,
333.1 … dwarf , fighter 20, defender III, w/ dwarven axes , haste boosted 20% , http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174962
344.7 … warforged , ranger 20/ , tempest I, w/ khopeshes , vs. non-favored ,
350.9… warforged , barbarian 20, crit rage II , w/ heavy picks ,
350.8 .....warforged, Barbarian 14, Fighter II, crit rage II, kensai I, w / heavy picks
353.0 … warforged , barbarian 20, crit rage II , w/ khopeshes ,
357.5 … warforged , Palidan 20, knight of the Chalice III , w/ khopeshes , vs. non-evil outsiders , with zeal (w/o smite) http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174590 *
364.5 … warforged , paladin 14 / ranger 6, knight of the Chalice II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. non-favored ,
370.0 … elf , ranger 20 , tempest III , w/ rapiers , vs. favored , (dex)
370.2 … halfling , fighter 12 / rogue 7 / barbarian 1 , kensai II , w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack ,
371.9 … warforged , barbarian 20 , frenzy I , w/ khopeshes ,
379.6 … warforged , fighter 12 / ranger 6 / monk 2 , kensai II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. non-favored ,
380.8 … dwarf , barbarian 14 / ranger 6 , tempest I , w/ dwarven axes , vs. favored ,
384.1 … warforged , fighter 20, kensai III , w/ khopeshes , without strength surge ,
384.7 … warforged , fighter 12 / barbarain 8, kensai II , w/ khopeshes , http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173631
395.0 … halfling , fighter 20, kensai III , w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack ,
395.1 … human , fighter 20, kensai III , w/ khopeshes , with damage boost +5 ,
399.1 … warforged , fighter 20, kensai III , w/ khopeshes , with strength surge ,
403.3 … warforged , barbarian 20, frenzy II , w/ khopeshes ,
409.3 … warforged , fighter 12 / ranger 6 / monk 2 , kensai II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. favored , (monster) http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630
411.5 … dwarf , barbarian 14 / ranger 6 , tempest I , w/ dwarven axes , vs. favored ,
418.2 … human , ranger 18 / monk 1 / rogue 1 , tempest III , w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack , (exploiter)
421.2 … warforged , paladin 14 / ranger 6, knight of the Chalice II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. evil outsiders , vs. favored , with zeal
431.8 … warforged , ranger 20 , tempest III , w/ khopeshes , vs. favored ,
433.2 … warforged , barbarian 20 , frenzy III , w/ khopeshes ,
438.4 ... warforged, paladin 20, knight of the chalice, vs evil outsiders, with zeal
444.9 … human , fighter 20, w/ khopeshes , with strength surge , haste boost +30%
454.0 … warforged , rogue 20, w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack ,
457.5 … halfling , rogue 20 , w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack ,
459.4 … dwarf , Rogue 13 / ranger 6 / barbarian 1, tempest I , w/ dwarven axes , vs. favored , with sneak attack
466.8 … human , ranger 18 / monk 1 / rogue 1, w/ khopeshes , vs. favored , with sneak attack , haste boost +15% (exploiter) http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687 *
494.9 … warforged , fighter 12 / barbarian 8, w/ khopeshes , haste boost +30% , http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173631
497.8 … halfling , rogue 13 / ranger 6 / barbarian 1 , assassin II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack , vs. favored
495.8 … warforged , paladin 14 / ranger 6, tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. evil outsiders , vs. favored , zeal, smite 1 per round
508.3 … warforged , fighter 20 , w/ khopeshes , with strength surge , haste boost +30%
517.0 … halfling , fighter 20 , w/ khopeshes , with strength surge , haste boost +30%
520.6 … warforged , fighter 12 / ranger 6 / monk2 , w/ khopeshes , vs. favored , haste boost +30% (monster) http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630
530.4 … warforged , paladin 20, w/ khopeshes , vs. evil outsiders , zeal, smite 1 per round
544.6 … halfling , fighter 12 / rogue 7 / barbarian 1 , w/ khopeshes , without sneak attack , haste boost +30%
569.0 … dwarf , Rogue 13 / ranger 6 / barbarian 1 , assassin II , tempest I , w/ dwarven axes , vs. favored , with sneak attack , haste boost +30%
568.7 … warforged , Rogue 20, w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack , haste boost +30%
584.7 … halfling , Rogue 20 , w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack , haste boost +30% http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...6&postcount=54
631.6 … halfling , Rogue 13 / ranger 6 / barbarian 1 , acrobat II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. favored , with sneak attack , haste boost +30% http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=175534
643.1 … halfling , Rogue 13 / ranger 6 / barbarian 1 , assassin II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. favored , with sneak attack , haste boost +30% http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=175534

builds are indicated in green when their position in the dps chart is dependant on short-term effects (I did not include strength surge as a short term effect... yet)
builds are indicated in blue when their position in the dps chart is dependant on situational damage like backstabbing and favored enemies
builds are indicated in red when their position in the dps chart is dependant on taking damage

If people detect errors or important omissions, I will correct and modify the numbers.

About Attack Bonus:
-Although attack bonus is important for many builds (esp 3/4 BAB classes), all dps in this thread is calculated assuming that the build will hit on a 2 or better. This is true in a large variety of scenarios providing the build in question has a good set of equipment and is fully buffed. Calculating dps for builds with low attack bonuses can become quite complicated, as you have to consider the whole attack progression, or if they are breaking their attack chain you might have to take into account a penalty for moving and the disadvantage of lossing your higher+ swings which occur later in the attack chain. Much of this may change in mod 9 as the devs have indicated that they would like to include more high AC mobs. The calculations might become further complicated with need to add in grazing blows.

About Average Damage:
-DPS in this thread is calculated using the average roll for each dice. For example, the average base damage for a 1d10 weapon (like a greensteel khopesh) is 5.5. Some people think it should be 5, but look at it this way:

1) take all the possible rolls (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10)
2) add them up (=55)
3) divide by the faces of the dice (55/10 = 5.5)

To calculate this for other weapons or effects, just take the #faces on the dice, add 1 and divide by 2. (i.e. for the example about =(10+1)/2)

About Weighted Averages:

there are 20 possible attack rolls (d20). The types of hits you get out of these rolls can be divided into several catagories:

1) misses -typically 1's in this thread (so 1/20 =5%)
2) normal hits -a range from 2 (in this thread, though the number becomes higher for high AC mobs) to just below the critical threat range of your weapon, so for a rapier this would be 2 through 14 (so 13/20 or 65% of the time)
3) critical hits - a range of numbers based on the critical threat range of your weapon, for the rapier in #2 above this would be 15 through 20 (so 6/20 or 30% of the time). Critical hits can be further divided into auto hits (rolls of 20 = 1/20 or 5%) or improved crits for barbaraisn (rolls of 19 and 20 = 2/20 or 10% of the time).

We use these proportions to multiply by the damage from that type of hit to come up with a weighted average, which can then be added together to come up with a total average for expected damage. i.e:

(damage on misses * chance of a miss) + (damage on normal hits * chance of a normal hit) + (damage on critical hits * chance of a critical hit) = average expected damage

for a rapier this would be:
(misses * 1/20) + (norm damage * 13/20) + (crit damage *6/20) = average expected damage.

About DPS ranking:

the list above mostly assumes the builds will be fighting in optimal conditions (i.e. buffed, hasted, bypassing DR, vs their favored enemies). I have calculated numbers removing FE and such things for a few of the builds to give people a flavor for how it changes things. For example, compare a pure WF ranger vs favored enemies doing 431.8 dps vs the same build vs non-favored doing 344.7 dps. It's not really practical to list all the scenarios here, hopefully people can use a bit of common sense when regarding the rankings (i.e. you might look at the slash spec'd tempest kensai and wonder "hmm.. how is his dps going to be vs the Black Abbot in mod 9 if I don't have FE undead and I'm using warhammers...").

Ranger splashes:
Many of the builds only have 2 favored enemies (lvl 6 ranger tempest multiclasses), which means they have to be quiet careful about which FE's they pick. The 6 ranger splash is very popular amongst builders as it is the largest incremental damage added for 6 levels of any class. Proponents of the 6rgr splash typically claim that the FE's they choose account for most of the opponents found at end game or that they can just change out their FE feat when running different content. Detractors of the builds claim that 2 FE's is too narrow of a range. Popular FE's include Evil outsider, Elemental, Construct, Giant, and Undead.

Fighter splashes:
A large portion of fighter DPS comes from weapon specilization (up to +8 for a kensai with their chosen weapon). With the changes to transmuting in mod 9, fighters will lose a large portion of their damage vs. creatures that have dr/weapon type (i.e. a slash spec'd kensai will lose dps vs a mob with dr/blunt).

Rogue splashes:
Most rogue damage comes via backstabbing and sneak attack. To get an idea of how dps decreases vs. agro'd or sneak attack immune mobs you can check out the rogue dps chart in post #2 below which shows rogue dps vs. various levels of fortification (for example 50% fort means that both 50% of critical hits and 50% of sneak attack are avoided).

Barbarians:
Many people have been a bit upset with the ranking of barbarians in the above chart. It pays to remember that very little of their dps is situation specific (except loss of frenzy crit damage vs. crit immune mobs). Barbarians are more melee generalists which means they don't have to specialize to fight a specific mob. (i.e. they use all weapons, and fight all types of mobs equally well). Compare this to a kensai fighter (1 weapon type only) ranger (fe's) rogue (sneak attack) or paladin (evil outsiders, undead).

Paladins:
A large portion of paladins dps comes from the new enhancements when fighting evil outsiders (knight of the chalice) or undead (hunter of the dead). Smites may also contribute significantly, depending on the duration of the fight. Palidans require alot more "clicking" then the other core melee classes, and may be difficult to manage when trying to fit in some effects like "madstone".

3/4 BAB classes (cleric, bard, rogue):
The calculations in this thread assume that these classes have utilized some spell or item to increase their BAB to that of the core melee classes. Madstone boots achieve this effect but preclude spellcasting. Divine power spell (for cleric) or clickies (for bard and rogue) also achieve this effect. In some cases it is actually advantageous to have a lower BAB due to the long animation time of the 5th attck, however I have not currently worked that into the chart. Often, what would be the maximum DPS is very impractical for these classes. For example, you could make a cleric with all lvl up points to strength and max charisma/strength but then your casting ability as a cleric would suffer.

About Gear, Tomes, and Buffs
People have different ideas of what should be included in these. Obviously, for a good portion of game content you aren't going to have a personal warchanter to sing to you and a cleric to spam prayer at you. You are probably going to make do with less thant +4 tomes, and be madstoned only a portion of the times. I've included these things in my numbers because it seemed to me that the majority of people who are concerned about high DPS are also concerned about being completely geared out. The relative positioning of builds in the dps chart would change only marginally if I didn't include these things. The important things is just that the same assumptions are made with all builds. I'll try and post some comparisons of fully geared- vs moderately geared builds so people can get a sense for the differences.

[gfunk]

Editing.. adding graphs for various builds












I'll add in seperate tables including haste boost enh (or damage boost enh in case of barbarians or humans) later.

Rogue dps calc details:


barbarian calc details:


rangers dps calc details

fighters:

adding others...

[maddmatt70]

For the Paladin did you factor in Zeal and divine favor? I can't see if you did.. Thanks by the way..

[gfunk]

For the Paladin did you factor in Zeal and divine favor? I can't see if you did.. Thanks by the way..

Oops.. I'll fix those in a bit. My familiarity with the palidan class is poor. thx for pointing that out.

[maddmatt70]

The other comment is new feats such as superior weapon specialization which or may not be coming in the game in mod 9 are not factored in.. These feats will help fighters of course..

[maddmatt70]

Does the assassin get the same attacks per round as the other classes? Are you using divine power clickies?

[Geonis]

Uh, as far as the Pally numbers, my finesse-based TWF Pally (with Pwr Atk), crit smites for average of 300 (first number, with Holy Sword spell rapiers), and isn't even pure Pally (14 levels of Pally).

Don't forget the multiplier goes up with Exalted Smite.

[maddmatt70]

The monster only has 6 favored enemy damage and not 7. 2 form favored enemy enhancements and 4 from the actual favored enemies themselves..

[Gryphton]

Looks nice so far. Thanks for taking the time to run the numbers. If you find the extra time, what does a Raged 20 Barb with Crit Rage II swinging Heavy Picks do?

[maddmatt70]

A question for your pally is madstone vs. divine favor. It will probably be unlikely that most paladins will have both because of duration of divine favor only being 2 min. Zeal on the other hand will be 5 min duration at level 20 and would be workable with madstone. Note: both zeal and divine favor are extended here.

[gfunk]

Uh, as far as the Pally numbers, my finesse-based TWF Pally (with Pwr Atk), crit smites for average of 300 (first number, with Holy Sword spell rapiers), and isn't even pure Pally (14 levels of Pally).

Don't forget the multiplier goes up with Exalted Smite.

I had some errors ..forgot to put pali level into calcs, thx for pointing it out.

I might also point out that lots of people tend to think of their high crits being representitive of their average damage, but if you have a different number it would be great if you posted the calcs for it.

[gfunk]

A question for your pally is madstone vs. divine favor. It will probably be unlikely that most paladins will have both because of duration of divine favor only being 2 min. Zeal on the other hand will be 5 min duration at level 20 and would be workable with madstone. Note: both zeal and divine favor are extended here.

yeah.. I would have to add in more cases. You notice I've put in double madstone with all of these too, which i might change at some point to single madstone.

** edit, still thinking about how best to deal with this.

[gfunk]

Does the assassin get the same attacks per round as the other classes?

Same for now as I'm not sure what the # attacks is for BAB 20 for the other classes (not sure if they will add in an attack animation or not). Rogue at least is a known value (bab 15 at lvl 20). I'll rectify this if someone has some more info about bab 20's

** edit, I should point out that all builds are madstoned, so the BAB thing shouldn't be an issue anyways. Still, I wish i knew what the attack numbers were at BAB 20 (Esp for the superior twf numbers)

[gfunk]

Looks nice so far. Thanks for taking the time to run the numbers. If you find the extra time, what does a Raged 20 Barb with Crit Rage II swinging Heavy Picks do?

Human? or WF?

** edit, added in WF version

[maddmatt70]

Not to make this anymore complex for you but the other two top dps builds I think in ddo not listed are 14 paladin/6 ranger and 13 rogue 6 ranger 1 something else lets say barbarian for dps purposes. Anyway thanks again GFunk..

[gfunk]

Not to make this anymore complex for you but the other two top dps builds I think in ddo not listed are 14 paladin/6 ranger and 13 rogue 6 ranger 1 something else lets say barbarian for dps purposes. Anyway thanks again GFunk..

np.. ill try to get them in the next while here (though i probably should do some RL work). I want to get to "the exploiter" first, not that it's the best dps but it has been a major topic of discussion.

As a side note, I would appreciate some scrutiny of the Crit Rage II barbarian numbers that i have posted. They seem a bit low.

[maddmatt70]

np.. ill try to get them in the next while here (though i probably should do some RL work). I want to get to "the exploiter" first, not that it's the best dps but it has been a major topic of discussion.

As a side note, I would appreciate some scrutiny of the Crit Rage II barbarian numbers that i have posted. They seem a bit low.

I think you missed the barbarian power attack enhancements on the dwarf barbarian.. Yeah you need to tinker with the dwarf barbarian/ranger character it looks like it needs some editing..

[maddmatt70]

Oh and FYI divine favor actually is now +3 and not +6 the devs fixed this a few mods ago to better reflect the same change in 3.5 D&D.

[Monkey_Archer]

All the barbs could go 11 PA, Dwarves could go 8.
Crit rage barbs are low becuase they get it at lvl 14, and are being compaired to much higher level (and better) enhancements.

Ooooh.. Let me do one

Kensai Fighter Greataxe
main / offhand
5 weapon
16 power attack
4 kensai
2 fighter enh
4 weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.............36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
...............8 str (power surge)
...............2 str (rage)
...............2 str (madstone 1)
...............2 str (madstone 2)
30 (50 str total)
61 total damage modifier

71.5 avg regular damage (GS Greataxe)
256.5 avg crit damage (+14 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
57.2 weighted reg damage (*16/20)
38.475 weighted crit damage (*3/20)
95.675 Average unhasted damage per swing

5 # of attacks per round
478.375 total avg damage per round
526.2125 * 1.10 melee alacrity


35.75 damge per glancing blow (half of main damage)
3 # glancing blows per round
107.25 glancing blow damage per round
117.975 * 1.1 melee alacrity

Total: 644.1875

[Aaxeyu]

Heya Gfunk

I like your idea of comparing the classes dps like this. We all know that a LOT of people are actually very clueless about how much DPS their classes actually deal.

Just a few thoughts..
First I really think you should add weapon effects, as builds with more attacks gets more benefit from them

And secondly, you are still counting in haste boosts as 30%, tempest as 10% so why not just make it damage per second instead of damage per round?