Review of TWF relative DPS

[gfunk]

<WARNING. this thread contains math>

This thread is intended as a reference to further explore the dps potential of various builds"

-see post #2 for charts, and updated calculation details (moving and updating from various posts later in thread, several of which are out of date)
-updated to post mod 7 tier III effects (some calc details in ref posts include older weapon descriptions)
-most builds include: madstone, bloodstone, tharnes, +4 tomes*, mineral II weapons (damaging 3rd tiers).
-standard buffs include: prayer (n/a on builds with divine favor), inspire courage (currently at +7 throughout this thread, at some point I'll have to update to +9), and haste.

-most posted calculations include 100% sneak attack damage. If you wish to get an idea of what the changes are with less sneak attack damage, you can look at the DPS vs fortification in post #2 (i.e. 50% fort also means that only 50% of your sneak attack gets through). If you have a build that rely's heavily on sneak attack for your DPS, you can improve your damage greatly (vs. trash) by wielding radience weapons which blind your foe and give you 100% sneak attack. High dps sneak attack builds also need agro mitigation like subtle backstabbing. treason or tharnes wrath.

-my goal is not to "prove anything" about which build is better or worse in this thread. I hope this becomes a thread for objective analysis of the capability of the damage potential of different classes. I hope to present the data in an unbiased manner. I don't believe that I have any sort of agenda because I actually don't build any of the highest DPS characters. I personally get more enjoyment out of making the best out of what I have (I keep the same characters around and just try and re-work them from time to time).

-I would like to include information about THF and Ranged combat at some point, however there are a few details that need to be worked out first (wrt glancing blow damage, procs, crit effects and ranged attack rate)

Other useful links:

cforces attack speed index: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172819 (resource for attack speeds)
ddo wiki attack progression page: http://ddowiki.com/page/Combo_chain (resource for attack chains and BAB's)
ddo wiki greensteel weapon base damage: http://ddowiki.com/page/Green_Steel_Weapons
rons character planner: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=87799 (many of the feats and enhancements are more accurate/up to date then the ddo compendium!)


DPS … (dps considering unbroken full attack progression)
179.1 … elf , cleric 18 / monk 2, w/ longswords , wo/ divine might , itwf ,
188.7 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2, w/ kamas , wo/ divine might , gtwf ,
190.2 … elf , cleric 18 / monk 2, w/ rapiers , wo/ divine might , itwf ,
195.1 … dwarf , cleric 18 / monk 2, w/ dwarven axes , w/ divine might , itwf ,
196.4 … elf , cleric 18 / monk 2, w/ longswords , w/ divine might , itwf ,
197.4 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2 ,w/ khopeshes , wo/ divine might , itwf ,
201.2 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2 ,w/ handaxes , wo/ divine might , gtwf ,
205.3 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2 ,w/ daggers , wo/ divine might , gtwf ,
208.3 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2 ,w/ longsword/handaxe , wo/ divine might , gtwf ,
208.9 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2 , w/ kamas , w/ divine might , gtwf ,
209.0 … elf , cleric 18 / monk 2 ,w/ rapiers , w/ divine might , itwf ,
212.5 … dwarf , cleric 18 / monk 2 ,w/ dwarven axes , w/ divine might , itwf ,
213.3 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ longswords , wo/ divine might , gtwf ,
217.7 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ khopeshes , w/ divine might , itwf ,
226.3 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ rapiers , wo/ divine might , gtwf ,
227.3 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ handaxes , w/ divine might , gtwf ,
227.4 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ daggers , w/ divine might , gtwf ,
230.4 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ longsword/handaxe , w/ divine might , gtwf ,
235.5 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ longswords , w/ divine might , gtwf ,
249.1 … halfling , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ khopeshes , without sneak attack ,
250.3 … human , cleric 18 / monk 2,w/ rapiers , w/ divine might , gtwf ,
275.1 … warforged , rogue 20, assassin III w/ khopeshes , without sneak attack ,
275.7 … halfling , cleric 18 / monk 2, w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack ,
296.8 … elf , ranger 20, tempest III , w/ rapiers , vs. non-favored ,
269.9 … dwarf , rogue 13 / ranger 6 / barbarian 1 , acrobat II , tempest I , w/ dwarven axes , vs. non-favored ,
306.4 … halfling , rogue 13 / ranger 6 / barbarian 1 , acrobat II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. non-favored ,
307.8 … dwarf , fighter 20, defender III , w/ dwarven axes ,
324.7 … human , ranger 18 / monk 1 rogue 1, tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. non favored ,
333.1 … dwarf , fighter 20, defender III, w/ dwarven axes , haste boosted 20% , http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174962
344.7 … warforged , ranger 20/ , tempest I, w/ khopeshes , vs. non-favored ,
350.9… warforged , barbarian 20, crit rage II , w/ heavy picks ,
350.8 .....warforged, Barbarian 14, Fighter II, crit rage II, kensai I, w / heavy picks
353.0 … warforged , barbarian 20, crit rage II , w/ khopeshes ,
357.5 … warforged , Palidan 20, knight of the Chalice III , w/ khopeshes , vs. non-evil outsiders , with zeal (w/o smite) http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174590 *
364.5 … warforged , paladin 14 / ranger 6, knight of the Chalice II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. non-favored ,
370.0 … elf , ranger 20 , tempest III , w/ rapiers , vs. favored , (dex)
370.2 … halfling , fighter 12 / rogue 7 / barbarian 1 , kensai II , w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack ,
371.9 … warforged , barbarian 20 , frenzy I , w/ khopeshes ,
379.6 … warforged , fighter 12 / ranger 6 / monk 2 , kensai II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. non-favored ,
380.8 … dwarf , barbarian 14 / ranger 6 , tempest I , w/ dwarven axes , vs. favored ,
384.1 … warforged , fighter 20, kensai III , w/ khopeshes , without strength surge ,
384.7 … warforged , fighter 12 / barbarain 8, kensai II , w/ khopeshes , http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173631
395.0 … halfling , fighter 20, kensai III , w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack ,
395.1 … human , fighter 20, kensai III , w/ khopeshes , with damage boost +5 ,
399.1 … warforged , fighter 20, kensai III , w/ khopeshes , with strength surge ,
403.3 … warforged , barbarian 20, frenzy II , w/ khopeshes ,
409.3 … warforged , fighter 12 / ranger 6 / monk 2 , kensai II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. favored , (monster) http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630
411.5 … dwarf , barbarian 14 / ranger 6 , tempest I , w/ dwarven axes , vs. favored ,
418.2 … human , ranger 18 / monk 1 / rogue 1 , tempest III , w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack , (exploiter)
421.2 … warforged , paladin 14 / ranger 6, knight of the Chalice II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. evil outsiders , vs. favored , with zeal
431.8 … warforged , ranger 20 , tempest III , w/ khopeshes , vs. favored ,
433.2 … warforged , barbarian 20 , frenzy III , w/ khopeshes ,
438.4 ... warforged, paladin 20, knight of the chalice, vs evil outsiders, with zeal
444.9 … human , fighter 20, w/ khopeshes , with strength surge , haste boost +30%
454.0 … warforged , rogue 20, w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack ,
457.5 … halfling , rogue 20 , w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack ,
459.4 … dwarf , Rogue 13 / ranger 6 / barbarian 1, tempest I , w/ dwarven axes , vs. favored , with sneak attack
466.8 … human , ranger 18 / monk 1 / rogue 1, w/ khopeshes , vs. favored , with sneak attack , haste boost +15% (exploiter) http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687 *
494.9 … warforged , fighter 12 / barbarian 8, w/ khopeshes , haste boost +30% , http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173631
497.8 … halfling , rogue 13 / ranger 6 / barbarian 1 , assassin II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack , vs. favored
495.8 … warforged , paladin 14 / ranger 6, tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. evil outsiders , vs. favored , zeal, smite 1 per round
508.3 … warforged , fighter 20 , w/ khopeshes , with strength surge , haste boost +30%
517.0 … halfling , fighter 20 , w/ khopeshes , with strength surge , haste boost +30%
520.6 … warforged , fighter 12 / ranger 6 / monk2 , w/ khopeshes , vs. favored , haste boost +30% (monster) http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630
530.4 … warforged , paladin 20, w/ khopeshes , vs. evil outsiders , zeal, smite 1 per round
544.6 … halfling , fighter 12 / rogue 7 / barbarian 1 , w/ khopeshes , without sneak attack , haste boost +30%
569.0 … dwarf , Rogue 13 / ranger 6 / barbarian 1 , assassin II , tempest I , w/ dwarven axes , vs. favored , with sneak attack , haste boost +30%
568.7 … warforged , Rogue 20, w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack , haste boost +30%
584.7 … halfling , Rogue 20 , w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack , haste boost +30% http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...6&postcount=54
631.6 … halfling , Rogue 13 / ranger 6 / barbarian 1 , acrobat II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. favored , with sneak attack , haste boost +30% http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=175534
643.1 … halfling , Rogue 13 / ranger 6 / barbarian 1 , assassin II , tempest I , w/ khopeshes , vs. favored , with sneak attack , haste boost +30% http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=175534

builds are indicated in green when their position in the dps chart is dependant on short-term effects (I did not include strength surge as a short term effect... yet)
builds are indicated in blue when their position in the dps chart is dependant on situational damage like backstabbing and favored enemies
builds are indicated in red when their position in the dps chart is dependant on taking damage

If people detect errors or important omissions, I will correct and modify the numbers.

About Attack Bonus:
-Although attack bonus is important for many builds (esp 3/4 BAB classes), all dps in this thread is calculated assuming that the build will hit on a 2 or better. This is true in a large variety of scenarios providing the build in question has a good set of equipment and is fully buffed. Calculating dps for builds with low attack bonuses can become quite complicated, as you have to consider the whole attack progression, or if they are breaking their attack chain you might have to take into account a penalty for moving and the disadvantage of lossing your higher+ swings which occur later in the attack chain. Much of this may change in mod 9 as the devs have indicated that they would like to include more high AC mobs. The calculations might become further complicated with need to add in grazing blows.

About Average Damage:
-DPS in this thread is calculated using the average roll for each dice. For example, the average base damage for a 1d10 weapon (like a greensteel khopesh) is 5.5. Some people think it should be 5, but look at it this way:

1) take all the possible rolls (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10)
2) add them up (=55)
3) divide by the faces of the dice (55/10 = 5.5)

To calculate this for other weapons or effects, just take the #faces on the dice, add 1 and divide by 2. (i.e. for the example about =(10+1)/2)

About Weighted Averages:

there are 20 possible attack rolls (d20). The types of hits you get out of these rolls can be divided into several catagories:

1) misses -typically 1's in this thread (so 1/20 =5%)
2) normal hits -a range from 2 (in this thread, though the number becomes higher for high AC mobs) to just below the critical threat range of your weapon, so for a rapier this would be 2 through 14 (so 13/20 or 65% of the time)
3) critical hits - a range of numbers based on the critical threat range of your weapon, for the rapier in #2 above this would be 15 through 20 (so 6/20 or 30% of the time). Critical hits can be further divided into auto hits (rolls of 20 = 1/20 or 5%) or improved crits for barbaraisn (rolls of 19 and 20 = 2/20 or 10% of the time).

We use these proportions to multiply by the damage from that type of hit to come up with a weighted average, which can then be added together to come up with a total average for expected damage. i.e:

(damage on misses * chance of a miss) + (damage on normal hits * chance of a normal hit) + (damage on critical hits * chance of a critical hit) = average expected damage

for a rapier this would be:
(misses * 1/20) + (norm damage * 13/20) + (crit damage *6/20) = average expected damage.

About DPS ranking:

the list above mostly assumes the builds will be fighting in optimal conditions (i.e. buffed, hasted, bypassing DR, vs their favored enemies). I have calculated numbers removing FE and such things for a few of the builds to give people a flavor for how it changes things. For example, compare a pure WF ranger vs favored enemies doing 431.8 dps vs the same build vs non-favored doing 344.7 dps. It's not really practical to list all the scenarios here, hopefully people can use a bit of common sense when regarding the rankings (i.e. you might look at the slash spec'd tempest kensai and wonder "hmm.. how is his dps going to be vs the Black Abbot in mod 9 if I don't have FE undead and I'm using warhammers...").

Ranger splashes:
Many of the builds only have 2 favored enemies (lvl 6 ranger tempest multiclasses), which means they have to be quiet careful about which FE's they pick. The 6 ranger splash is very popular amongst builders as it is the largest incremental damage added for 6 levels of any class. Proponents of the 6rgr splash typically claim that the FE's they choose account for most of the opponents found at end game or that they can just change out their FE feat when running different content. Detractors of the builds claim that 2 FE's is too narrow of a range. Popular FE's include Evil outsider, Elemental, Construct, Giant, and Undead.

Fighter splashes:
A large portion of fighter DPS comes from weapon specilization (up to +8 for a kensai with their chosen weapon). With the changes to transmuting in mod 9, fighters will lose a large portion of their damage vs. creatures that have dr/weapon type (i.e. a slash spec'd kensai will lose dps vs a mob with dr/blunt).

Rogue splashes:
Most rogue damage comes via backstabbing and sneak attack. To get an idea of how dps decreases vs. agro'd or sneak attack immune mobs you can check out the rogue dps chart in post #2 below which shows rogue dps vs. various levels of fortification (for example 50% fort means that both 50% of critical hits and 50% of sneak attack are avoided).

Barbarians:
Many people have been a bit upset with the ranking of barbarians in the above chart. It pays to remember that very little of their dps is situation specific (except loss of frenzy crit damage vs. crit immune mobs). Barbarians are more melee generalists which means they don't have to specialize to fight a specific mob. (i.e. they use all weapons, and fight all types of mobs equally well). Compare this to a kensai fighter (1 weapon type only) ranger (fe's) rogue (sneak attack) or paladin (evil outsiders, undead).

Paladins:
A large portion of paladins dps comes from the new enhancements when fighting evil outsiders (knight of the chalice) or undead (hunter of the dead). Smites may also contribute significantly, depending on the duration of the fight. Palidans require alot more "clicking" then the other core melee classes, and may be difficult to manage when trying to fit in some effects like "madstone".

3/4 BAB classes (cleric, bard, rogue):
The calculations in this thread assume that these classes have utilized some spell or item to increase their BAB to that of the core melee classes. Madstone boots achieve this effect but preclude spellcasting. Divine power spell (for cleric) or clickies (for bard and rogue) also achieve this effect. In some cases it is actually advantageous to have a lower BAB due to the long animation time of the 5th attck, however I have not currently worked that into the chart. Often, what would be the maximum DPS is very impractical for these classes. For example, you could make a cleric with all lvl up points to strength and max charisma/strength but then your casting ability as a cleric would suffer.

About Gear, Tomes, and Buffs
People have different ideas of what should be included in these. Obviously, for a good portion of game content you aren't going to have a personal warchanter to sing to you and a cleric to spam prayer at you. You are probably going to make do with less thant +4 tomes, and be madstoned only a portion of the times. I've included these things in my numbers because it seemed to me that the majority of people who are concerned about high DPS are also concerned about being completely geared out. The relative positioning of builds in the dps chart would change only marginally if I didn't include these things. The important things is just that the same assumptions are made with all builds. I'll try and post some comparisons of fully geared- vs moderately geared builds so people can get a sense for the differences.

[gfunk]

Editing.. adding graphs for various builds












I'll add in seperate tables including haste boost enh (or damage boost enh in case of barbarians or humans) later.

Rogue dps calc details:


barbarian calc details:


rangers dps calc details

fighters:

adding others...

[maddmatt70]

For the Paladin did you factor in Zeal and divine favor? I can't see if you did.. Thanks by the way..

[gfunk]

For the Paladin did you factor in Zeal and divine favor? I can't see if you did.. Thanks by the way..

Oops.. I'll fix those in a bit. My familiarity with the palidan class is poor. thx for pointing that out.

[maddmatt70]

The other comment is new feats such as superior weapon specialization which or may not be coming in the game in mod 9 are not factored in.. These feats will help fighters of course..

[maddmatt70]

Does the assassin get the same attacks per round as the other classes? Are you using divine power clickies?

[Geonis]

Uh, as far as the Pally numbers, my finesse-based TWF Pally (with Pwr Atk), crit smites for average of 300 (first number, with Holy Sword spell rapiers), and isn't even pure Pally (14 levels of Pally).

Don't forget the multiplier goes up with Exalted Smite.

[gfunk]

Does the assassin get the same attacks per round as the other classes?

Same for now as I'm not sure what the # attacks is for BAB 20 for the other classes (not sure if they will add in an attack animation or not). Rogue at least is a known value (bab 15 at lvl 20). I'll rectify this if someone has some more info about bab 20's

** edit, I should point out that all builds are madstoned, so the BAB thing shouldn't be an issue anyways. Still, I wish i knew what the attack numbers were at BAB 20 (Esp for the superior twf numbers)

[Angelus_dead]

[COLOR=white]DPS TABLE (from below)

I see no Inspire Courage in the results. I also don't see Tharne's Goggles.

Omitting those factors which are part of real DDO DPS makes Tempest, Paladin, and Kensai look relatively worse than they actually are.

[Monkey_Archer]

I see no Inspire Courage in the results. I also don't see Tharne's Goggles.

Omitting those factors which are part of real DDO DPS makes Tempest, Paladin, and Kensai look relatively worse than they actually are.

Yep.... was just a matter of time before someone brought GEAR into a class comparison.

Lets redo all the number for those with tharnes...
then redo for weapon effects...
then redo with both..
then redo for bard buffs but no tharnes..
then redo for bard buffs and tharnes
then redo for Warchanter..
then redo for warchanter + effects + tharnes

All thats nice but NOW you must do choker too...

[maddmatt70]

Yep.... was just a matter of time before someone brought GEAR into a class comparison.

Lets redo all the number for those with tharnes...
then redo for weapon effects...
then redo with both..
then redo for bard buffs but no tharnes..
then redo for bard buffs and tharnes
then redo for Warchanter..
then redo for warchanter + effects + tharnes

All thats nice but NOW you must do choker too...

Well I would say the tharnes gogles is as easy to acquire as the madstone boots right now. For both it takes about 20 runs to have about 90% certainty of having one of each which take a little less then 60 days.

[Monkey_Archer]

Well I would say the tharnes gogles is as easy to acquire as the madstone boots right now. For both it takes about 20 runs to have about 90% certainty of having one of each which take a little less then 60 days.

Its not supposed to be hard... but when your fighter sees that +3 str tome for #20 waiting 120 days isnt out of the question

tharnes adds +8 damage x 5 attacks x 2 weapons = 80 damage per round
or 88 with 10% alacrity..
for a difference of 8 damage per round..
given that its only when you dont have agro, and not every1 has it... i think its more accurate to leave it out anyway.

In other words: Add 8 to tempest kensai pali if you must....

[maddmatt70]

Its not supposed to be hard... but when your fighter sees that +3 str tome for #20 waiting 120 days isnt out of the question

tharnes adds +8 damage x 5 attacks x 2 weapons = 80 damage per round
or 88 with 10% alacrity..
for a difference of 8 damage per round..
given that its only when you dont have agro, and not every1 has it... i think its more accurate to leave it out anyway.

This is one of those hey who do you run with and situational questions. On a shroud pounding on Harry everybody who has one of these gets the tharnes at least if that one person doesn't have aggro. The folks I run with for shroud speeds it is more the question of who doesn't have one and this is usually a player who is playing a newer character. On average I would say 5 out of the 7 melee on these shrouds are getting tharnes damage on Harry - the guy with aggro and the 1 melee who doesn't have the goggles. If you are fighting different mobs and the like and are spread out so you wouldn't get sneak damage of course then it is harder to count tharnes.

[gfunk]

Yep.... was just a matter of time before someone brought GEAR into a class comparison.

Lets redo all the number for those with tharnes...
then redo for weapon effects...
then redo with both..
then redo for bard buffs but no tharnes..
then redo for bard buffs and tharnes
then redo for Warchanter..
then redo for warchanter + effects + tharnes

All thats nice but NOW you must do choker too...

lol.. I took out the choker because of its limitations...

Effects are complicated. Which weapon should i use? min II, lightning strike? radience for the rogue? triple pos? It opens up a whole other can of worms, though I will consider doing it if I am super-bored at work over the next couple of weeks.

[gfunk]

I see no Inspire Courage in the results. I also don't see Tharne's Goggles.

Omitting those factors which are part of real DDO DPS makes Tempest, Paladin, and Kensai look relatively worse than they actually are.

I could include inspire courage and prayer, though I wanted to make the charts as self-buffed. Personally I only see a bard in ~60% of the raids I run, and maybe 10% of the quests, so I don't like to include it in how I personally think about dps (im a pessimist). That said, it probably is a good idea to have a seperate "buffed" chart.

Also, its a bit tricky to add in tharnes, though perhaps I can do it on a seperate table. Obviously, it would only impact your dps in places where you don't have agro (and even my dex based ranger gets agro a lot). I included sneak attack damage on the rogue (without tharnes) as they have enhancements to mitigate agro, and its a central aspect of the class. I will likely include the numbers for the melees with Tharnes in a seperate "non-agro" table.

[Demoyn]

** NEW chart, with weapon effects and buffs (see post on page 3 for details)

1226.5 .. 14/6 dwarf barb(crit rage II)/ranger w/ dwarven axes vs favored
1223.2 .. Monster vs. favored

These are backwards as the barb/ranger deals 3 more damage than the Monster. Hmm, go figure.

[gfunk]

Love the thread. How about adding the Haste boost to all of them though. Seems like some would catch up more so with the haste once factoring bursting and blasting damage and the higher crits.

I only added the haste boost to the builds/classes that had that enhancement available to them.

These are backwards as the barb/ranger deals 3 more damage than the Monster. Hmm, go figure.

fixed

[gfunk]

Alright all you monk fanatics, I'm going to need some help with this one (I'm not going to put it in the table till I have had some feedback). Also, I would like to do an unarmed version, however due to the # unarmed attacks per round, it isnt really directly comparable to two weapon fighting. Any thoughts regarding that would be helpful.

warforged monk w/ duel min II kamas
main / offhand
5.0 / 5.0 .. weapon
8.0 / 8.0 .. tharnes
7.0 / 7.0 .. inspire courage
1.0 / 1.0 .. prayer
8.0 / 8.0 .. power attack
1.0 / 1.0 .. ki strike
/ .. favored enemy damage
.......... .. 33 unbuffed str (18bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
14.0 / 7.0 .. 39 str (total)
44.0 / 37.0 .. total damage modifier
48.5 / 41.5 .. avg regular damage
109.0 / 95.0 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
41.2 / 35.3 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
10.9 / 9.5 .. weighted crit damage (*2/20)
52.1 / 44.8 .. Average damage per swing


6.7 / 6.7 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.3 / 3.3 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
0.6 / 0.6 .. 1d10 acid on crit tier II (5.5*2/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.4 / 2.4 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
13.6 13.6 .. total weapon/ monk path effects
65.7 58.4 .. base + weapon effects

5.0 / 5.0 .. # of attacks per round
328.6 / 291.9 .. total avg damage per round
6.7 / 6.7 assuming 2 attacks attampted with master of thunder (2d6*19/20)
633.8 .. total main + off hand
728.9 .. 15% insight bonus to speed (greater wind stance)

[cforce]

gfunk, it will probably come as little surprise to you that this is my new favorite thread -- thanks for taking the time to do this. Should this thread maybe have a home in the guides forum, so it doesn't get pruned 3-6 months from now? It's a great resource.

(And, I'm still working on deconstructing the attack speed stuff so you can eventually fold that in, so stay tuned. Right now I'm stalled because I realized I need to level a Tempest build to really get good data.)

[gfunk]

gfunk, it will probably come as little surprise to you that this is my new favorite thread -- thanks for taking the time to do this. Should this thread maybe have a home in the guides forum, so it doesn't get pruned 3-6 months from now? It's a great resource.

(And, I'm still working on deconstructing the attack speed stuff so you can eventually fold that in, so stay tuned. Right now I'm stalled because I realized I need to level a Tempest build to really get good data.)

Cool, thx.. it will be great to get your final numbers so that I can incorporate them.. Attack speeds probably remain the single biggest unknown when trying to compare the various dps classes with each other. I'm glad your working on it. If you get the chance to look into it, I would love to get some data on monk attack speeds as well, both with kamas and with unarmed attacks.

And yeah, this thread would probably do better in the guides forum, I just didn't want to post it there initially, as I wanted to get some more feedback before calling it a "guide".