Review of TWF relative DPS

[Demoyn]

If you're mad as hell and are not going to take it anymore, why are you on the forums?

Just so stupid fanbois will make inane comments like yours.

[Borror0]

I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

You are. I know multiple Warchanter Tempest build, currently.

[Demoyn]

You are. I know multiple Warchanter Tempest build, currently.

I'm not talking about currently, though. I'm talking about a change after mod 9 comes out.

[Borror0]

I'm not talking about currently, though. I'm talking about a change after mod 9 comes out.

Well, you are wrong. If you don't believe me then try to dig up a quote but it'll be a waste of time.

[Demoyn]

Well, you are wrong. If you don't believe me then try to dig up a quote but it'll be a waste of time.

"Class specialties now indicate that you can only take a single specialty from a particular class."

This is what I was thinking of, but obviously I was off a bit on my memory.

[TrenchcoatJesus]

Excellent thread, a few questions:

1) I noticed you add Halfling Guile and Tharne's into base damage modifier, and you multiply that modifier (plus avg damage) for crits. Unless I am mistaken, sneak attack damage (including guile and tharne's) is never multiplied for a crit, unless there is an improper mechanic somewhere. This would definitely skew your numbers if I am correct.

2) You mentioned that monk unarmed you need better numbers for, and I'd agree. Given the current max possible DPS belonging to rogues (situationally) I would think unarmed could actually provide a very high DPS with enough levels of rogue taken. Specifically, with the greater number of attacks, how well could a halfling guilde IV rogue 19/monk 1 deal in terms of damage?

I'm very impressed with your work and glad you started this thread. Even if your work is not entirely correct or there are unseen mechanics present that make a direct translation from your numbers to the game impossible, you're comparing all the builds on an even playing field, making comparison actually worthwhile. Simply put, even if we'd never realistically see these numbers in game, there'd be a similar translation in terms of what is likely the highest to lowest possible for sustained melee twf dps.

[gfunk]

Excellent thread, a few questions:

1) I noticed you add Halfling Guile and Tharne's into base damage modifier, and you multiply that modifier (plus avg damage) for crits. Unless I am mistaken, sneak attack damage (including guile and tharne's) is never multiplied for a crit, unless there is an improper mechanic somewhere. This would definitely skew your numbers if I am correct.

2) You mentioned that monk unarmed you need better numbers for, and I'd agree. Given the current max possible DPS belonging to rogues (situationally) I would think unarmed could actually provide a very high DPS with enough levels of rogue taken. Specifically, with the greater number of attacks, how well could a halfling guilde IV rogue 19/monk 1 deal in terms of damage?

I'm very impressed with your work and glad you started this thread. Even if your work is not entirely correct or there are unseen mechanics present that make a direct translation from your numbers to the game impossible, you're comparing all the builds on an even playing field, making comparison actually worthwhile. Simply put, even if we'd never realistically see these numbers in game, there'd be a similar translation in terms of what is likely the highest to lowest possible for sustained melee twf dps.

hmm, well I have seen were people have posted that it doesn't multiply. I always assumed it did because my drow dex rogue has hit for up to 118 points of damage with a rapier (1st number only, not including backstabbing or other extra numbers). I did this with an offhand backstabbing (+8) weapon, and a main hand greensteel rapier (I often watch the damage numbers go by to see if they jibe with my calculations)

There would be no other way to get to this number as I only have:

6 (str bonus when unraged)
13(max hit with a +5 greensteel rapier)
2 (drow rapier enhancements)
4 (assassin II crit damage)
6 (bloodstone)
7 (inspire heroics.. or at least im assuming i had max songs.. could have been raged or had prayer)
12 (sneak attack training IV)
8 (offhand backstabbing weapon)
59 * 2 = 118

If sneak attack didnt multiply then the max I could hit for would be (39*2)+20=98... though I suppose the number could get up to 102 if I had rage and prayer as well. (I only recently picked up madstone boots on my rogue, and do not currently have power attack though i probably will pick it up soon). I don't see how i could have attained that high of a number of sneak attack did not multiply.

As it has been called into question, I will have to confirm it by doing some testing in game. If I have calculated it incorrectly then I will undertake the onerous task of recalculating my previous numbers.

[TrenchcoatJesus]

Yes, as per D&D rules and common sense, it *shouldn't* multiply; although I have not tested it in-game to be sure. Using a level 1 rogue with level I SA Training should be easy enough to test. Assuming 10 Strength and a club (1d6) your crits would be either 2-12 + 4-9 or 8-18 + 1-6. I'll leave the testing up to you, but I am curious if sneak attack (extra) damage is being multiplied in criticals.

What sort of data/testing would you need to par unarmed down to a relative number of attacks per round?

-TrenchcoatJesus

[gfunk]

What sort of data/testing would you need to par unarmed down to a relative number of attacks per round?

-TrenchcoatJesus

well, unarmed has been a whole different thing because it operates more like THF then TWF. What i would have been looking for is accurate data as to how long a round takes for unarmed combat vs. a twf round, and what the implied speed difference was.

That may be uneccesary now as with the Mod 9 release notes, TWF feats are supposed to work on unarmed combat so I would think that would mean the same number of attacks as when two weapon fighting well armed. As long as people report that it is working on laminia, then i guess i'll be able to apply the same methodology as I did with armed combat.

[TrenchcoatJesus]

Since I don't have the appropriate data, I thought I'd take a crack at seeing if unarmed would benefit the pure halfling rogue or not. Here's what I got:

See Original post for Summary Chart with Weapon effects
Halfling dps rogue
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
8 / 8 .. tharnes
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
15 / 15 .. sneak attack training V?
8 8 halfling guild IV
.......... .. 31 unbuffed str (16bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
13 / 6 .. 37 str (total)
62 / 55 .. total damage modifier
67.5 / 60.5 .. avg crit damage (GS Khopesh)
220.5 / 199.5 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
50.625 / 45.375 .. weighted reg damage (*15/20)
44.1 / 39.9 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
94.725 / 85.275 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
33.25 / 33.25 .. Average backstabbing damage (10d6)
127.975 / 118.525 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
143.225 133.775 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
716.125 / 668.875 .. total avg damage per round
1385 .. total main + off hand
1800.5 *1.3 haste boost IV

Keeping in mind unarmed retains full strength bonus on "off hand" strikes:

Halfling "Hin Fist" dps rogue (Unarmed, 19 Rogue/1 Monk)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
8 / 8 .. tharnes
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
15 / 15 .. sneak attack training V?
8 8 halfling guile IV
.......... .. 31 unbuffed str (16bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
13 / 13 .. 37 str (total)
62 / 62 .. total damage modifier
65.5 / 65.5 .. avg weapon damage (+5 handwraps, 1d6 base)
143 / 143 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
55.675 / 55.675 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
14.3 / 14.3 .. weighted crit damage (*2/20)
69.975 / 69.975 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
33.25 / 33.25 .. Average backstabbing damage (10d6)
103.225 / 103.225 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy wraps (7*19/20)
6.65 6.65 .. total weapon effects
109.875 109.875 .. base + weapon effects

x / x .. # of attacks per round
y / y .. total avg damage per round

Here we have our unknowns. For the sake of argument, I figured I'd see how many more attacks per round the unarmed rogue would need to equal the pure rogue using khopeshes. Keeping in mind Wind Stance I for 2.5% insight attack speed,

1385 .. total main + off hand / 1.025 = 1351.220

Or put simply, 1351.220 / 109.875 = 12.30 So there must be a relative difference between attack animations such that in the time the pure rogue swings his khopeshes 5 times each, the unarmed user must attack 12.3 times. That's a 23% attack rate increase.

I sincerely doubt the unarmed attack chain goes off 23% faster *base* than the TWF Khopesh user, but that is a relatively small margin considering the difference in critical properties, not to mention GS properties. This also ignores the damage from monk strikes, though being 1st level would not be a huge factor in the long run (+4 strike of the enduring I on a 6 second cooldown, or other 1d6 elemental and thus situational strikes).

I'd be very interested in seeing tests done to figure out exactly what the ratio of attacks/animations is for unarmed compared to TWF. I have to doubt that in current content a halfling 19 rogue/monk 1 using their fists would outdps the same using GS Khopeshes, but with these enigmatic rings and other unarmed fixes around the corner, who knows?

-TrenchcoatJesus

[gfunk]

Excellent thread, a few questions:

1) I noticed you add Halfling Guile and Tharne's into base damage modifier, and you multiply that modifier (plus avg damage) for crits. Unless I am mistaken, sneak attack damage (including guile and tharne's) is never multiplied for a crit, unless there is an improper mechanic somewhere. This would definitely skew your numbers if I am correct..

ok, none of the sneak attack numbers get multiplied on crits.. tested it out last night... oops.
Ive fixed most of them in the summary table (though it needs a bit of reordering now), I will repost the calculations when i get that cleaned up.

[gfunk]

reference post only

Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II khopeshes
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
20 / 10 .. 50 str (total)
46 / 36 .. total damage modifier
51.5 / 41.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
184.5 / 154.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
36.05 / 29.05 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
46.125 / 38.625 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes
89.775 / 75.275 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.75 / 2.75 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*5/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.8 15.8 .. total weapon effects

105.575 91.075 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
527.875 / 455.375 .. total avg damage per round
983.25 .. total main + off hand -->dps: .. 344.1
.. * 1.10 melee alacrity -->dps: .. 373.6
.. *1.30 haste booste IV -->dps: .. 452.3

Human Kensai Fighter with deathnips
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
20 / 10 .. 50 str (total)
46 / 36 .. total damage modifier
49.5 / 39.5 .. avg regular damage (deathnip)
246 / 206 .. avg crit damage (+12 dmg to critsw/ kensai+deathnip)
34.65 / 27.65 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
61.5 / 51.5 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes
103.75 / 86.75 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

9.975 / 9.975 .. 3d6 maiming
113.725 96.725 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
568.625 / 483.625 .. total avg damage per round
1052.25 .. total main + off hand -->dps: .. 368.3
.. * 1.10 melee alacrity -->dps: .. 399.9
.. *1.30 haste booste IV -->dps: .. 484.0

Human Kensai Fighter with bereavements
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
20 / 10 .. 50 str (total)
46 / 36 .. total damage modifier
50.5 / 40.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
193.5 / 163.5 .. avg crit damage (+14 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bereavement)
40.4 / 32.4 .. weighted reg damage (*16/20)
29.025 / 24.525 .. weighted crit damage (*3/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes
77.025 / 64.525 .. Average unhasted damage per swing


77.025 64.525 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
385.125 / 322.625 .. total avg damage per round
707.75 .. total main + off hand -->dps: .. 247.7
.. * 1.10 melee alacrity -->dps: .. 268.9
.. *1.30 haste booste IV -->dps: .. 325.6

Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II rapiers
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
20 / 10 .. 50 str (total)
46 / 36 .. total damage modifier
50.5 / 40.5 .. avg regular damage (GS rapiers)
121 / 101 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
30.3 / 24.3 .. weighted reg damage (*12/20)
42.35 / 35.35 .. weighted crit damage (*7/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes
80.25 / 67.25 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
1.925 / 1.925 .. 1d10 acid on crit tier II (11*7/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
14.975 14.975 .. total weapon effects

95.225 82.225 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
476.125 / 411.125 .. total avg damage per round
887.25 .. total main + off hand -->dps: .. 310.5
.. * 1.10 melee alacrity -->dps: .. 337.2
.. *1.30 haste booste IV -->dps: .. 408.1

Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II longswords
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
20 / 10 .. 50 str (total)
46 / 36 .. total damage modifier
51.5 / 41.5 .. avg regular damage (GS longsword)
123 / 103 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
36.05 / 29.05 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
30.75 / 25.75 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes
74.4 / 62.4 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
1.375 / 1.375 .. 1d10 acid on crit tier II (11*5/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
14.425 14.425 .. total weapon effects

88.825 76.825 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
444.125 / 384.125 .. total avg damage per round
828.25 .. total main + off hand -->dps: .. 289.9
.. * 1.10 melee alacrity -->dps: .. 314.7
.. *1.30 haste booste IV -->dps: .. 381.0
Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II heavy picks
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
20 / 10 .. 50 str (total)
46 / 36 .. total damage modifier
51.5 / 41.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
246 / 206 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
41.2 / 33.2 .. weighted reg damage (*16/20)
36.9 / 30.9 .. weighted crit damage (*3/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes
85.7 / 71.7 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.475 / 2.475 .. 3d10 acid on crit tier II (11*3/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.525 15.525 .. total weapon effects

101.225 87.225 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
506.125 / 436.125 .. total avg damage per round
942.25 .. total main + off hand -->dps: .. 329.8
.. * 1.10 melee alacrity -->dps: .. 358.1
.. *1.30 haste booste IV -->dps: .. 433.4

Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II kukris
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
20 / 10 .. 50 str (total)
46 / 36 .. total damage modifier
49.5 / 39.5 .. avg regular damage (GS rapiers)
119 / 99 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
29.7 / 23.7 .. weighted reg damage (*12/20)
41.65 / 34.65 .. weighted crit damage (*7/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes
78.95 / 65.95 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
1.925 / 1.925 .. 1d10 acid on crit tier II (11*7/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
14.975 14.975 .. total weapon effects

93.925 80.925 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
469.625 / 404.625 .. total avg damage per round
874.25 .. total main + off hand -->dps: .. 306.0
.. * 1.10 melee alacrity -->dps: .. 332.2
.. *1.30 haste booste IV -->dps: .. 402.2

Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II bastard swords
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
20 / 10 .. 50 str (total)
46 / 36 .. total damage modifier
55 / 45 .. avg regular damage (GS longsword)
130 / 110 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
38.5 / 31.5 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
32.5 / 27.5 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes
78.6 / 66.6 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
1.375 / 1.375 .. 1d10 acid on crit tier II (11*5/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
14.425 14.425 .. total weapon effects

93.025 81.025 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
465.125 / 405.125 .. total avg damage per round
870.25 .. total main + off hand -->dps: .. 304.6
.. * 1.10 melee alacrity -->dps: .. 330.7
.. *1.30 haste booste IV -->dps: .. 400.3

[gfunk]

Now that Cforce has reached some conclusions regarding attack speed, I have decided to use his information to start including DPS (damage per second) numbers for various builds. As I pulled a bereavement on my fighter the other day and was curious about how it fit in, I decided to start looking at the dps for a variety of weapons vs various levels of fortification. I'll update the various builds in the first post with DPS numbers as well, but for now i was sidetracked with the different weapons:

DPS chart vs. mobs with 0% fortification (calculations in previous post)
DPS .. damage/round
268.9 .. 707.8 .. Human Kensai Fighter with bereavements
314.7 .. 828.3 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II longswords
330.7 .. 870.3 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II bastard swords
332.2 .. 874.3 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II kukris
337.2 .. 887.3 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II rapiers
358.1 .. 942.3 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II heavy picks
373.6 .. 983.3 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II khopeshes
399.9 .. 1052.3 .. Human Kensai Fighter with deathnips
* DPS is calculated with fighter weapon alacrity and haste, but does not include haste boosts
**mineral II weapons are calculated with a non-dps 3rd tier

Below is chart with same weapons, but vs a mob with 50% fortification
DPS .. damage/round
216.6 .. 570.0 .. Human Kensai Fighter with bereavements
268.7 .. 707.1 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II longswords
274.9 .. 723.4 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II kukris
279.2 .. 734.6 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II rapiers
283.0 .. 744.8 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II bastard swords
292.5 .. 769.6 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II heavy picks
299.2 .. 787.4 .. Human Kensai Fighter with deathnips
300.8 .. 791.5 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II khopeshes

Below is chart with same weapons, but vs a mob with 100% fortification (weapon effects still work on crit rolls, hence the difference for things like longswords and khopeshes which have the same base damage)
DPS .. damage/round
164.3 .. 432.3 .. Human Kensai Fighter with bereavements
198.6 .. 522.5 .. Human Kensai Fighter with deathnips
217.6 .. 572.5 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II kukris
221.2 .. 582.0 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II rapiers
222.7 .. 586.0 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II longswords
226.9 .. 597.0 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II heavy picks
227.9 .. 599.8 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II khopeshes
235.3 .. 619.3 .. Human Kensai Fighter with mineral II bastard swords

** edit, note that the differences for the power of the different weapons will be more skewed for kensai fighters then for classes which don't have improvements to crit damage and range. On other classes, the differences would be less.

[Demoyn]

Were you ever able to improve my monk/cleric build? If so, is there anything that can be improved after the stats and classes are already chosen? Mind you, I think the build is doing great (exceptional, actually), but I'm always looking for more power *Tim Allen grunt*.

[ForwardWu]

thx for the hard work, gfunk.

is it possible to include dex based rogue build like the one suggested by Impaqt?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=175391

I know it is no way a good dps compare to a str based build, yet its good to see how much dps you are actually giving up to focus on the defense side...thx

from the dps chart, i noticed that dps of a dex based 20 ranger is about 360 vs favor, while a str based exploiter build or monster is about 400. Seems an ac focused build (18/1/1 dex based) will be only giving up 10% of dps to boost the ac....

its good to see hows its the case for rogue based toon

also fun to see that no build can break the 450 dps line without using short boosts (smite, haste boost, etc), except for the halfing rogue build. thats why i am so interested to see if this build become ac focus how much dps will be lost....

[ForwardWu]

I do the calc with a pocket calc-tor...hope it is correct..

halfling dex based Rogue 13/Ranger 6/Monk 1 (rapier)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon

7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack

2 / 2 rams might
6 / 6 favored enemy
.......... .. 20 unbuffed str (11 base, 6 item, 3 tome)
.......... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
9 / 4 .. 28 str (total)
35 / 30 .. total damage modifier

39.5 / 34.5 .. avg normal damage (gs rapier)
91 / 81 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
25.675 / 22.425.. weighted reg damage (*13/20)
27.3 / 24.3 .. weighted crit damage (*6/20)
52.975 / 46.725.. Average unhasted damage per swing
23.275 / 23.275 .. Average backstabbing damage (7d6)
11.4 / 11.4 .. sneak attack training IV
7.6 / 7.6 .. halfling guile
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
102.85 / 96.6.. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
1.65 / 1.65 .. 1d10 acid on crit tier II (5.5*6/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
14.7 14.7 .. total weapon effects
117.55 111.3.. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
587.75 / 556.5.. total avg damage per round
1144.25.. total main + off hand
1258.68.. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1636 *1.3 haste boost IV

[ForwardWu]

another take on dex based exploiter build

elf dex based Ranger 18/Rogue 1/Monk 1 (rapier), vs favor enemy and sneak attack
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon

7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack

2 / 2 rams might
12 / 12 favored enemy
2 / 2 racial
.......... .. 20 unbuffed str (11 base, 6 item, 3 tome)
.......... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
9 / 4 .. 28 str (total)
43 / 38 .. total damage modifier

47.5 / 42.5 ..avg normal damage (gs rapier)
107 / 97 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
30.875 / 27.625.. weighted reg damage (*13/20)
32.1 / 29.1.. weighted crit damage (*6/20)
62.975 / 56.725.. Average unhasted damage per swing
3.325 / 3.325.. Average backstabbing damage (1d6)
2.85 / 2.85.. sneak attack training I
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)

76.75 / 70.5.. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
1.65 / 1.65 .. 1d10 acid on crit tier II (5.5*6/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
14.7 / 14.7 .. total weapon effects
91.45 / 85.2.. base + weapon effects

6 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
548.7 / 426.. total avg damage per round
974.7.. total main + off hand
1072.17.. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1232.9955 *1.15 haste boost I

[gfunk]

Were you ever able to improve my monk/cleric build? If so, is there anything that can be improved after the stats and classes are already chosen? Mind you, I think the build is doing great (exceptional, actually), but I'm always looking for more power *Tim Allen grunt*.

well, only way to get serious extra dps for the cleric build is to get the charisma for divine might, but your willingness to accept the trade-offs just depends on what sort of cleric you play. You could start at:
str 12
dex 16
con 12
int 8
wis 16
cha 14
(2 less str and 2 less con then your build)

and then you would have access to divine might II with a +2 tome, and III with a +4 tome, but you would give up +1 to hit, and 20 hp (at lvl 20).

dps (hasted)..damage/round
.......268.01...765.75...18cleric/2monk without divine might
.......282.19...806.25...18cleric/2monkwith divine might II
.......291.64...833.25...18cleric/2monk with divine might III

18cleric/2monk without divine might
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
0 / 0 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
3 / 3 .. divine favor (spell)
.......... .. 24 unbuffed str (14 bse, 0lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
8 / 4 .. 26 str (total)
28 / 24 .. total damage modifier

33.5 / 29.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
118.5 / 106.5 .. avg crit damage (+6dmg to crits w/bloodstone)
25.125 / 22.125 .. weighted reg damage (*14520)
23.7 / 21.3 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. halfling guile IV
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
64.025 / 58.625 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
79.275 73.875 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
396.375 / 369.375 .. total avg damage per round
765.75 .. total main + off hand
268.01 (dps)




18cleric/2monkwith divine might II
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
0 / 0 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
4 / 4 .. cleric divine might II (lvl 15)
3 / 3 .. divine favor (spell)
.......... .. 22 unbuffed str (12 bse, 0lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
7 / 3 .. 24 str (total)
31 / 27 .. total damage modifier

36.5 / 32.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
127.5 / 115.5 .. avg crit damage (+6dmg to crits w/bloodstone)
27.375 / 24.375 .. weighted reg damage (*14520)
25.5 / 23.1 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. halfling guile IV
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
68.075 / 62.675 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
83.325 77.925 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
416.625 / 389.625 .. total avg damage per round
806.25 .. total main + off hand
282.19 (dps)




18cleric/2monk with divine might III
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
0 / 0 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
6 / 6 .. cleric divine might III (lvl 15)
3 / 3 .. divine favor (spell)
.......... .. 22 unbuffed str (12 bse, 0lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
7 / 3 .. 24 str (total)
33 / 29 .. total damage modifier

38.5 / 34.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
133.5 / 121.5 .. avg crit damage (+6dmg to crits w/bloodstone)
28.875 / 25.875 .. weighted reg damage (*14520)
26.7 / 24.3 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
7.6 / 7.6 .. halfling guile IV
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
70.775 / 65.375 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
86.025 80.625 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
430.125 / 403.125 .. total avg damage per round
833.25 .. total main + off hand
291.64 (dps)

[gfunk]

I do the calc with a pocket calc-tor...hope it is correct..

halfling dex based Rogue 13/Ranger 6/Monk 1 (rapier)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon

7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack

2 / 2 rams might
6 / 6 favored enemy
.......... .. 20 unbuffed str (11 base, 6 item, 3 tome)
.......... .. 2 str (rams)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
9 / 4 .. 28 str (total)
35 / 30 .. total damage modifier

39.5 / 34.5 .. avg normal damage (gs rapier)
91 / 81 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
25.675 / 22.425.. weighted reg damage (*13/20)
27.3 / 24.3 .. weighted crit damage (*6/20)
52.975 / 46.725.. Average unhasted damage per swing
23.275 / 23.275 .. Average backstabbing damage (7d6)
11.4 / 11.4 .. sneak attack training IV
7.6 / 7.6 .. halfling guile
7.6 / 7.6 .. tharnes (8*19/20)
102.85 / 96.6.. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
1.65 / 1.65 .. 1d10 acid on crit tier II (5.5*6/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
14.7 14.7 .. total weapon effects
117.55 111.3.. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
587.75 / 556.5.. total avg damage per round
1144.25.. total main + off hand
1258.68.. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1636 *1.3 haste boost IV

You have no errors that I can find. Nice work. You could get a bit more damage by going assassin II with your rogue levels (+4 to crits).
The DPS the way you have it calculated is:

434.8 (hasted)
526.4 (hasted + boosted)

If you went assassin II (1285.1/1670.6) it would be

443.9 (hasted)
537.4 (hasted + boosted)

[jakeelala]

You have no errors that I can find. Nice work. You could get a bit more damage by going assassin II with your rogue levels (+4 to crits).
The DPS the way you have it calculated is:

434.8 (hasted)
526.4 (hasted + boosted)

If you went assassin II (1285.1/1670.6) it would be

443.9 (hasted)
537.4 (hasted + boosted)

I don't understand this calculation...

It's assuming 100% sneak attack damage? how is that relevant, who ever gets 100% sneak attack damage?

I mean the closest thing you could get to that would be using dual radiance rapiers I suppose, but this calc has "1d4 slicing duel shard" in it, which is a MinII Calc.

I just don't understand how this is a relevant damage calc when it's only applicable for very short bursts (i dont even mean clickies or abilities, I mean getting backstab damage).

Am I missing something?