Review of TWF relative DPS

[gfunk]

Damage boost:
111.025 99.425 .. base + weapon effects

Haste boost:
103.775 92.175 .. base + weapon effects




Ok... correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the only reason haste boost beats attack boost is after taking into account weapon effect damage. I think that's worth mentioning.

just to clarify, the superiority of haste boost is not dependant on weapon effects. Here are the numbers with no effects added in:

here are the numbers (in damage/round with 5 main and 5 offhand attacks):
1175.1025...Human Kensai Fighter with haste boost +30%
983.675.......Human Kensai Fighter with damage boost +5

The haste boost is approximately 20% better than damage boost. This is somewhat intuitive considering that the damage modifier for the fighters below is around +50, so the extra +5 is only a difference of 10%. Even an unbuffed fighter with a +30 damage modifier will do much better with haste boost.

If you only had around +12 or so to damage, you would do OK with damage boost (relatvie to haste boost for that build), but I can't imagine that anyone would want to make a fighter with such a poor damage modifier.

Human Kensai Fighter with damage boost +5
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
8 / 8 .. tharnes
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
5 / 5 damage boost +5
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 4 enh, 6 item, 3 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
16 / 8 .. 50 str (total)
55 / 47 .. total damage modifier

60.5 / 52.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
211.5 / 187.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
42.35 / 36.75 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
52.875 / 46.875 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
95.225 / 83.625 .. Average unhasted damage per swing


95.225 83.625 .. base + weapon effects (0)

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
476.125 / 418.125 .. total avg damage per round
894.25 .. total main + off hand
983.675 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity

human Kensai Fighter with haste boost +30%
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
8 / 8 .. tharnes
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
.......... .. 36 unbuffed str (18bse, 5 lvlup, 4 enh, 6 item, 3 tome)
........... .. 8 str (power surge)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
16 / 8 .. 50 str (total)
50 / 42 .. total damage modifier

55.5 / 47.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
196.5 / 172.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to critsw/ kensai+bloodstone)
38.85 / 33.25 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
49.125 / 43.125 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
87.975 / 76.375 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

87.975 76.375 .. base + weapon effects (0)

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
439.875 / 381.875 .. total avg damage per round
821.75 .. total main + off hand
903.925 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1175.1025 *1.30 haste boost

[gfunk]

He doesn't have the 14/16/18 base charisma to get them.

good catch, ill put in some new numbers, and maybe a new build that does have the charisma.

[BlackSteel]

***edit***Gfunk beat me to it, oh well********

nope, the only thing u just looked at is the damage difference between using damage boost and not using damage boost

if u want to see the effects between the boosts w/o weapon effects simply do this

103.775 92.175 x 1.3 for....... 135 / 120

135/120 haste
vs
111/99 for damage boost

weapon effects will be enhanced more with the haste boost tho

[Scalion]

One last thing with Damage boost vs. haste boost.

Haste boost basically boosts your overall dps by a percentage, 30% I would guess, since it's a 30% boost.

Damage boost boosts your overall dps by a set amount, X amount of added damage, regardless of what your dps is without the boost.



So for example (I know the math might be wrong but the point is illustrated) if your dps was 100, a haste boost would boost your damage to 130, and lets say hypothetically that damage boost boosted your dps to 125. The haste boost added 30 to your overall damage output, but the attack boost only adds 25.

If your dps dropped down to 50 because you were without all of the same buffs, or for any other reason, a haste boost would only increase your dps to 65 because it's a percentage based ability, while the damage boost would increase your dps to 75 because it adds an extra 25 dps regardless. So there are circumstances where the damage boost wins out.


Either way, I have both on my fighter, I do appreciate the time you guys took to run these numbers, and I will adjust my playstyle accordingly.

[Demoyn]

good catch, ill put in some new numbers, and maybe a new build that does have the charisma.

You can just trust me when I say that there's no way to feasibly get another 10 charisma without gimping the character (or using +3 tomes in almost every stat).

[gfunk]

You can just trust me when I say that there's no way to feasibly get another 10 charisma without gimping the character (or using +3 tomes in almost every stat).

well, personally I consider it quite reasonable to plan for +3 tomes in every stat. Most of my alts who have been around for greater than a year have either +2s or +3s in every stat. I expect that mod 9 will make +3's as common as +2s and +4s as common as +3's.

Every build I make I like to plan for what they will ultimately have for stats and equipment, no matter what the time frame required to get those items/tomes. Its more of a power-gamer attitude, however so is planning for max dps or at least max dps relative to benefits given up elsewhere (which is partially the point of the thread).

I do expect that it would be difficult to attain the +10 to charisma that you have stated, however I am now intruiged enough with the build that I will give it a bit more thought.

[EinarMal]

I posted the halfling Kensai Rogue build (Fighter 12/Rogue 7/Barbarian 1)

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=176374

[Desteria]

A question for your pally is madstone vs. divine favor. It will probably be unlikely that most paladins will have both because of duration of divine favor only being 2 min. Zeal on the other hand will be 5 min duration at level 20 and would be workable with madstone. Note: both zeal and divine favor are extended here.

A godo dps pally shoudl have Single madestone and DF really, they MIGHT some times pull off dubble then lose DF fro a few seconds......

I typicaly cast DF last then click a set of boots and start fighting i give the boots about 10 seocnds to proc a seoconed madstoen before i take them off, because losing DF for to long Sucks!!!!,

[vyvy3369]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet are the force rituals - an extra 1 damage per swing should create a slight increase for TWF over THF.

[gfunk]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet are the force rituals - an extra 1 damage per swing should create a slight increase for TWF over THF.

Very good point, I totally forgot about the rituals. It also favors the builds with greater number of attacks. The difference is slight, but perhaps I should work it in somewhere..

[gfunk]

He doesn't have the 14/16/18 base charisma to get them.

updated numbers, taking out divine might

[Borror0]

/snip

You calculated Prayer as if it stacked with Divine Favor. It does not.

[gfunk]

You calculated Prayer as if it stacked with Divine Favor. It does not.

hmm.. didn't know that. Typical, as i've never rolled a pali and ive never really melee'd (much) with my cleric. Ill fix that error, thx.

[Xyfiel]

I know this is for twf, but can you do the math on a Human Rogue13/Monk1/Fighter6 acrobat/kensai using staff?

Factor in the following:
34 str (single madstone)
Power Attack
Weapon Spec+enhancement
Wind Stance
Tharnes
Full sneak attack training
30% haste boost
84 attacks/min


I think that is all and correct.

[Demoyn]

I know this is for twf, but can you do the math on a Human Rogue13/Monk1/Fighter6 acrobat/kensai using staff?

Factor in the following:
34 str (single madstone)
Power Attack
Weapon Spec+enhancement
Wind Stance
Tharnes
Full sneak attack training
30% haste boost
84 attacks/min


I think that is all and correct.

Didn't Tolerrant issue a statement saying that multiple PrEs weren't going to be possible?

[Borror0]

Didn't Tolerrant issue a statement saying that multiple PrEs weren't going to be possible?

Do you mean like all the Tempest Kensai and Tempest KotC being built and the few Tempest Acrobats I know?

[Demoyn]

Do you mean like all the Tempest Kensai and Tempest KotC being built and the few Tempest Acrobats I know?

Well it would apply to them also, yes (if I'm correct in my memory). It doesn't make much sense to create a bunch of impossible builds.

[Borror0]

Well it would apply to them also, yes (if I'm correct in my memory). It doesn't make much sense to create a bunch of impossible builds.

I was being sarcastic. Multiple PrE builds already exist in-game.

[Gunga]

You can just trust me when I say that there's no way to feasibly get another 10 charisma without gimping the character (or using +3 tomes in almost every stat).

If you're mad as hell and are not going to take it anymore, why are you on the forums?

[Demoyn]

I was being sarcastic. Multiple PrE builds already exist in-game.

Yeah, but I thought they said something about mod 9 not having multiple PrEs. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.