Make Velah Relevant

[bobbryan2]

lemme help you out a bit.




tailoring everything in the game to the end cap raiders is indeed pernicious
because not everyone in the game rolls up their character at 18-20.

(edit) I do agree that the flagging mechanism should be changed to do it once and you're in forever.

Lemme help you a bit.

People don't start at 18. But also, people don't stay level 10 for very long. With a three day timer... you run the dragon.. what? twice?

[Lithic]

Eh...

I don't care if they make all raids endgame relevant, as long as all non-raids (and at least one raid) remain accessible to characters with no raid gear (on Normal difficulty - hard and elite are supposed to be Hard and Elite). However -

There should also be at least some dragons outside of raids/preraids. It's Dungeons and Dragons, after all. Not all dragons have to be godlike opponents, and even players who don't care to raid want the chance to fight a dragon once in a while.

There are currently 3 white, 1 black, and 1 blue dragon you can fight outside of raids. Tor for 3 of them, and prey the hunter has 2 more white (though fighting them is optional).

[elraido]

Ruby Encrusted Gauntlets.....those are fun. I can barely hurt a RAT in the vale with those things. Back when the spell was first released it rocked...now it does absolutly nothing for toons.

Von 3 and 5 do give you great xp while the other ones give you good xp, so that is reason enough to run it when lvl appropriate. But the raid its self, while fantastic to play, there is 0 reason to run it. Loot is horrible, xp is horrible. I have run it only like 4 times to completion, and a majority of those runs where with in the 1st year of its release. I look at some screen shots I took, and I look at my hp and weapons...and think, how did we beat that when we sucked so bad.

Red dragon scales would be nice. Run if 4-5 times and you get a scale each time...like Invaders, to turn in for armor.

[herzkos]

Lemme help you a bit.

People don't start at 18. But also, people don't stay level 10 for very long. With a three day timer... you run the dragon.. what? twice?

Ok, you move the dragon to lvl 18-20, how many people never run it?

Not everyone in the game is a powerlevelling master. Some people actually run quests other than giant hold and
then go straight to the vale/orchard/refuge/subterane.

edit, i've seen groups running von5-6 from 8-14. If you go through those levels in 6 days, well have fun in another week when you are capped.
Two weeks to cap(or less) when the next mod hits.

[Angelus_dead]

People don't start at 18. But also, people don't stay level 10 for very long. With a three day timer... you run the dragon.. what? twice?

That's the most obvious problem, but there are more. They relate to assembling a group of 12, gearing an L10 character for the quest, and then the impact of attractive raid loot if an L10 gets them. (Remember that if the loot is bumped to the point of being useful to L20 characters, it will be pretty unbalanced for an L10 who happens to pull one)

[Angelus_dead]

Ok, you move the dragon to lvl 18-20, how many people never run it?

A level20 Velah would get more use than the level10 one does today (that's assuming that the flagging quests are either made optional, or bumped up to close to level20 themselves)

The majority of all Velah raids involve at least a few characters within -1 of the level cap. That will stay the same regardless of what level the raid is moved to... but if it's advanced to L20, then at least the rest of the group will also be close to the level cap.

[Angelus_dead]

Ruby Encrusted Gauntlets.....those are fun. I can barely hurt a RAT in the vale with those things. Back when the spell was first released it rocked...now it does absolutly nothing for toons.

No- it was pathetic on first release as well. (Remember the original version had a four second casting time)

[miceelf88]

I really don't like the idea of making raiding unavailable until the end-game. It's nice to have some raids along the way to introduce newer players to the concept of raiding and larger groups. This doesn't seem a good way of getting new content for capped players. it would also be weird to run von1-4 as a level 8-10, so that you'll have the opportunity to do von5-6 at level 18-20. That's a pretty big gap.

honestly, von5-6 would be run a LOT more if they got rid of the flagging mechanism. That's the big problem. Please don't take quests out of the 8-11 range, where it's hard enough to level as it is.

[elraido]

What about having a super elite raid difficulty that brings the difficulty of all raids to 20+ (and you have to be capped to get in). Have a "pool" of items available if you beat it but to use it you have to be lvl 20. The items don't need to be "uber" even...stuff like Large Ingrediant bags, a scale or 5 or ingrediant of your choice etc.

[Angelus_dead]

I really don't like the idea of making raiding unavailable until the end-game.

It's a common mistake to assume that raids are available for non-endgame players simply because their difficulty level is managable for non-endgame characters. There's a lot more to raiding than simply being able to beat the encounters.

It's nice to have some raids along the way to introduce newer players to the concept of raiding and larger groups.

Why's that nice?

it would also be weird to run von1-4 as a level 8-10, so that you'll have the opportunity to do von5-6 at level 18-20. That's a pretty big gap.

Obviously, if VON5-6 were raised by +10 levels, then either VON1-4 would be too, or else they'd be taken out of mandatory reflagging.

honestly, von5-6 would be run a LOT more if they got rid of the flagging mechanism.

Simply convincing players to "run" something more is not a good objective. It's not good gameplay for L16 characters to kill Velah today; and it'll be far worse if L20 characters get new incentive to kill the current Velah later.

The real objective should be for players to run quests at around the level the quests were built for. Velah was built for L10 characters, so encouraging L16-20 characters to fight her would be a mistake, unless the raid was retuned.

[Angelus_dead]

What about having a super elite raid difficulty that brings the difficulty of all raids to 20+ (and you have to be capped to get in).

That could be a fine option; whether it's a good choice depends on how technically difficult it would be for the devs to make that change.

Certainly it would be nice to leave behind an accessible "Classic Version" if an old quest was rescaled to a new level.

[Uska]

just leave it alone its fun and it would be something for none zerging power gamers to play at mid level not everything needs to be geared for that type of player and if it was there would soon be no game.

[miceelf88]

I'm not especially interested in increasing the amount of times Velah gets run by 16-20 players. I mean, if the main goal is to have more stuff that can be run by capped characters in a balanced way, we could just ask the devs to make all of the quests level 18-20 and let people level up using the explorers/slayers/rares route.

I just am not sure that's the way the game should go. There should be fun, challenging, and rewarding things a level 10 character, particularly if it's someone's first or second character, should be able to do along the way to cap.

I guess the meta-question is to what extent we want the game to be focused on the end-game vs. on more casual players, newer players, and those who take a while to level...

That's why the only change I want is to take away the reflagging. If we follow your suggestion and move von1-4 (as well as 5&6) up to the level cap, that really takes away a huge chunk of what gets people from level 8 to level 10 as is currently the case, given how horrendous the shadow tombs are.

I think I understand the motivation and the part of me taht has a capped character can really relate. But the part of me that remembers leveling my first couple of characters and still tries to interact with newbies really hates this idea.

Perhaps the epic idea would be best.

[Arianrhod]

Frankly, I'd love it if every raid with a quest level below cap got 2 new options added to it - 1) an elite/heroic endgame option with appropriate challenges and rewards for capped characters, and 2) a basic/non-raid option with appropriate challenges and rewards for single groups of the original quest level (permitting, for instance, casual groups with hirelings to experience the quests without having to jump through the hoops needed to get through a raid, provided they're willing to forgo the raid loot).

[Junts]

Engulf and encase!



Think she might be, m9

[Jefro]

Just add extra raid loot that are more to the times then mod 2. Gives more replay.

[Mercules]

It's a common mistake to assume that raids are available for non-endgame players simply because their difficulty level is managable for non-endgame characters. There's a lot more to raiding than simply being able to beat the encounters.

You mean like reading a calender to figure out when your timer ends?



Ok... ignoring the obvious "Iz 1337, U 5ux0rz" post....


Change the manner of flagging and maybe drop the timer to a day. This will allow people to try for some Raid Loot that is not worthless in the level 10-12 range but really not worth it 14+, in general. Specific items are not horrible, but there are usually other options.

It is a fun quest, but having to re-flag gets annoying. Now that it is almost a mid-level raid it should move towards easier re-flagging and shorter timer.

[VirieSquichie]

Having a timer on the raids is pointless anyhow, it just makes it so you HAVE to play another character or dungeon while you're waiting, or worse causes you to not log in for a couple days. We need people logged in.

If there were no raid timers, sure some people would grind the reaver into the ground the moment they finished the last Tor dragon. Those are the same people who are in Gianthold at level 8 now, and who are on timer for the Shrould with 4 or 5 characters at all times. Really, what's the point of trying to limit those people? They'll grind SOMETHING anyway, you're just preventing them from making it the same something on the same characters back to back. Unless someone's getting a commission every time a person logs a different character in, there's precious little good reason for it.

Most people get sick and tired of the view of any particular dungeon after they've run it a couple times in a (week, month, whatever) and aren't limited by that timer anyway, unless they run a raid and then a friend invites them on that same raid the next day or some similar situation. So you're prevented from grouping with someone on perfectly good content...for what reason, exactly? Because you might remember too much about it? Please...

There need to be raids at all levels because sometimes more than 6 people who know each other want to play together. Period. Aside from loot, aside from XP, aside from favor that's the driving point behind having raids at all levels. It's the closest thing we get to that first M in MMO, unless you count 40 people clustered around the same AH vendor...

The flagging is the only thing really broken about that raid.

[Angelus_dead]

There need to be raids at all levels because sometimes more than 6 people who know each other want to play together. Period.

Wrong.

By your logic, we need 100-player dungeons. At all levels.

[frugal_gourmet]

Frankly, I'd love it if every raid with a quest level below cap got 2 new options added to it - 1) an elite/heroic endgame option with appropriate challenges and rewards for capped characters, and 2) a basic/non-raid option with appropriate challenges and rewards for single groups of the original quest level (permitting, for instance, casual groups with hirelings to experience the quests without having to jump through the hoops needed to get through a raid, provided they're willing to forgo the raid loot).

I like this idea. This would also require the pre-raid to be upped in difficulty and the raid itself to be dependent on the enhanced pre-raid.

I would still couple this with no need to re-flag, of course.

Of course, whether this is worth it depends on the time it takes to "re-tool" a raid. If it's a lot, it may be worth it just to make a new raid. Dunno what the times involved are. All right just leave a raid that few people play, so long as it's not worth it to re-tool.