Ranger capstone... why I defend it

[Mhykke]

i think mhykke is just stoked his rogue-splash ranger didnt get screwed with the capstone

And Seriouslyy will truly be seriously helpful by level 20 :O

You're definitely right. My ranger rogue splash is thrilled......and my lowbie elf pure ranger, if I decide to range at all with him, will have to go 20. So I'm sitting pretty.

Doesn't mean I can't see the problems w/ this capstone for others.

[alchilito]

Oh does it eh.. Guess Aspenor needs to revisit his arguments. What I gather is he is for an improvement in archery and for a solid ranger capstone, but what I have never heard from him is whether there wouldn't be better possible capstones out there. That is what every 'supporter' for this capstone fails to address is whether there would be better capstone options that the developers could make..

I agree that there will be definitely time and proper in-game proven arguments to expand the number of capstones. On all classes.

Specially rogues. I have absolutely no enticement from the capstone of rogues atm to stay pure. But I can hope for the future right ?

[Deathseeker]

Oh does it eh.. Guess Aspenor needs to revisit his arguments. What I gather is he is for an improvement in archery and for a solid ranger capstone, but what I have never heard from him is whether there wouldn't be better possible capstones out there. That is what every 'supporter' for this capstone fails to address is whether there would be better capstone options that the developers could make..

Bingo! Matt hit it dead on.

Its not that many of us think the game is worse for having this capstone. It's that of all the options to do a ranged based capstone for a ranger, this one is terrible.

Im not hearing too many people argue that this capstone should be completely eliminated from the game. Its that of all the things they could do with the goals of :

Helping ranged combat
Making a capstone that doesnt pump melee rangers further
Making rangers the top of the hill in terms of ranged

They achieved it in a way that is poor. There are much simpler solutions, with what should be relatively the same effort, that would achieve this so much better. That's what has most of us upset.

[WeaselKing]

That link is evidence against your position.

Just like when you pointed at the DDO manual pdf, the source says rangers have similar ability with both archery and melee. Nothing in it suggests that they are better at ranged combat than anyone else.

Well, it seems to be the consensus that they are pretty much the best at melee, so thus the best at ranged fighting.

[Gunga]

Bingo! Matt hit it dead on.

Huh? So if you like a capstone, you're supposed to come up with a capstone that would be better and then complain about it incessantly on the forums? Even though you like it?

Y'all are smawt.

[Vuedoo]

Being a Capstone and not Receiving any Benefit to fix ranged Combat for the ranger before lvl 20,, the Only Plus A pure Ranger Benefits is once he hits 20( and Think of Having to be gimped by both Twf and Ranged Until you hit 20). and is it even a plus, at lvl 20 does the ranged Dps boost = the equivilant of the Massive Hp Boosts of the new lvl 17 through 20+ Mobs, Like we have seen in the past from Gianthold to Shroud.

[Borror0]

Laughably, hilariously and objectively wrong, in addition to being irrelevant to what I posted.

Objectively? LOL

[Kistilan]

I think Aspenor's stance on the capstone is fine -- rangers should be better at archery.

The fact that everyone else is shooting so slow that ranged combat is very situational sort of makes sense. Have you seen the majority of any movie play out in full-archery only? (HOW BORING!?!?) Typically any siege results in a few catapults and several ranged shots from all warriors before they drop their bows and go into melee. Only pure archers and rangers (not wielding The Sword that was once Broken) and nancy boy elves (I'm looking at you Orlando) stay with their bow as their primary weapon into the fray.

That said, Rangers should probably have options for other Pure 20 Ranger Capstones so that anyone who splashed can start feeling bad for themselves.

I recommend the following karmic additions to Ranger Capstones:

Eye of the Tempest: You are the paragon of all Tempests and the calm before the storm is ever-present in your stance. Enter this stance to receive a +1 to hit and damage, +1 to ac and 5% speed alacrity while dual-wielding. Additionally, your favored enemy damage is increased by +1. You sufer a -4 to ac vs all ranged attacks while in this stance.

Sniper Archery: Your lethality with a bow or xbow is unmatched. Activate this stance to enable your shots to produce the effect of Greater Slaying vs any creature. You receive a -10% speed alacrity while in this stance. Targets immune to criticals are unaffected by this ability.

Eldritch Archer: You are the pinnacle of arcane archers and have unlocked the ancient elven magic from a millenia past. Entering a deep trancelike state, your arrows shift into an incorporeal form as you notch them in the bow. All arrows gain +5 transmutational, ghost touch while in this stance. You suffer a -5% speed alacrity while in this stance and -1 to ac.

Zen Archery: (I don't have a rulebook to pull this from & modify)

Avenger: Your hatred for your enemies runs deeper than the thickest forest. Your vow to decimate your sworn enemies has become a mantra and by that code you will see to their deaths. You gain an additional favored enemy, +2 to hit and damage vs favored enemies, +2 to saves vs favored enemies, +2 to ac vs favored enemies. You also gain a stance, "Vengeful Strike," which cancels these benefits at any time. Instead, every successful strike made while in this stance against a favored enemy forces the target to make a Save vs Death as per Greater Slaying or die instantly.

[Mhykke]

-- rangers should be better at archery.

.....because?

[Kistilan]

.....because?

I cited movies right below it.

[Mhykke]

I cited movies right below it.

You mentioned 1 movie:

The fact that everyone else is shooting so slow that ranged combat is very situational sort of makes sense. Have you seen the majority of any movie play out in full-archery only? (HOW BORING!?!?) Typically any siege results in a few catapults and several ranged shots from all warriors before they drop their bows and go into melee. Only pure archers and rangers (not wielding The Sword that was once Broken) and nancy boy elves (I'm looking at you Orlando) stay with their bow as their primary weapon into the fray.

You say "only pure archers and rangers"
- so there are other classes besides rangers that are archers, so why exactly should rangers be much better than those other archers that stick w/ ranged combat?

as for "Orlando" sticking with the bow
- yes, he uses the bow quite a bit. Although he does use those elven long knives as well


So you named 1 movie where 1 (class name explicit) ranger (Aragorn) basically never uses a bow.....and another person "Legolas" who may or may not be a pure ranger in D&D terms (you're guessing that he's a ranger), uses a bow a lot of the time.

Congrats, you really backed up your point.

[frugal_gourmet]

So you named 1 movie where 1 (class name explicit) ranger (Aragorn) basically never uses a bow.....and another person "Legolas" who may or may not be a pure ranger in D&D terms (you're guessing that he's a ranger), uses a bow a lot of the time.

Congrats, you really backed up your point.

Also, keep in mind that elves could not be Rangers in original D&D.

But, to be fair and play counterpoint again, etymology does not define the term. How it's used now does.

Have you noticed from this board that a large number of people believe that rangers should be ranged specialists? Regardless of how it came about, this expectation really exists today (this very message board is evidence!) and it wouldn't be that outrageous for DDO's creators to pander to it.

I don't think it's really that big a deal if Rangers are the best ranged fighters in DDO. As long as:

1) They aren't the best at most everything else too.
2) There are other avenues for ranged fighting.

[Mhykke]

Also, keep in mind that elves could not be Rangers in original D&D.

But, to be fair and play counterpoint again, etymology does not define the term. How it's used now does.

Have you noticed from this board that a large number of people believe that rangers should be ranged specialists? Regardless of how it came about, this expectation really exists today (this very message board is evidence!) and it wouldn't be that outrageous for DDO's creators to pander to it.

I don't think it's really that big a deal if Rangers are the best ranged fighters in DDO. As long as:

1) They aren't the best at most everything else too.
2) There are other avenues for ranged fighting.

I can agree with that. The problem lies in your #2. If one wants to make a ranged character in DDO, the capstone basically eliminates avenues. 25% attack speed does this. It's so powerful, in that type of style, that it kills incentives to be anything else.

[Gunga]

The problem lies in your #2.

Anyone?

[Deathseeker]

Huh? So if you like a capstone, you're supposed to come up with a capstone that would be better and then complain about it incessantly on the forums? Even though you like it?

Y'all are smawt.

So Gunga, if someone came to rescue your family from a burning vehicle but decided to only take you and your kid but leave your wife inside...would you complain? I mean come on, they're helping you and your kid, right?

I'd rather have the capstone in the game than not, but still think its a poorly designed capstone.

There's a difference between understanding an argument and disagreeing with it, and just not being able to comprehend the argument. It's a shame you fall in the latter category and not the former. But as such, it seems somewhat a waste to keep debating something with you as you are incapable of comprehending the debate.

[kingfisher]

Anyone?

lol how the hell does he know the problems with his number two's?

[Oreg]

I think the capstone sucks using the following logic...

"Ranged" rangers have to wait 20 levels to get it. Basically you suck (ranged) up until then or you melee, in which case are you all of a sudden going to start ranging as your primary source of dps? I doubt it. So it becomes situational at best.

Most melee ranger builds (with splashes) will never get to use it.

[Gunga]

So Gunga, if someone came to rescue your family from a burning vehicle but decided to only take you and your kid but leave your wife inside...would you complain? I mean come on, they're helping you and your kid, right?

I'd rather have the capstone in the game than not, but still think its a poorly designed capstone.

There's a difference between understanding an argument and disagreeing with it, and just not being able to comprehend the argument. It's a shame you fall in the latter category and not the former. But as such, it seems somewhat a waste to keep debating something with you as you are incapable of comprehending the debate.

Don't blame me for thinking your argument is silly, Genius.

[Kistilan]

You mentioned 1 movie:

You say "only pure archers and rangers"
- so there are other classes besides rangers that are archers, so why exactly should rangers be much better than those other archers that stick w/ ranged combat?

as for "Orlando" sticking with the bow
- yes, he uses the bow quite a bit. Although he does use those elven long knives as well


So you named 1 movie where 1 (class name explicit) ranger (Aragorn) basically never uses a bow.....and another person "Legolas" who may or may not be a pure ranger in D&D terms (you're guessing that he's a ranger), uses a bow a lot of the time.

Congrats, you really backed up your point.

Aragorn *does* utilize his bow in Lord of the Rings.
Legolas uses his knives as a secondary defense -- his primary offense if you watch closely enough is the bow.

I'm utilizing the term "archer" and "ranger" synonamous. I didn't think you need this spelt out, but ok...

Archer and Ranger are the same term in DDO currently. If you want to be an archer, you better pick ranger. If you chose to be a fighter that takes ranger feats, fine, but don't expect to be the best until Turbine includes a fighter capstone for fighters that specialize in archery (ie archers).

My main point was the best archers in movies primarily stayed archery even into the fray. I summarized a typical movie scene, not just those 2 characters you referenced. Until then, I'm citing that if you're going to be good with bows and xbows, you need to be a ranger in DDO. Both history & movies back up this claim.

Other famous Ranger/Archers?

Legolas (Elven Ranger/Archer)
Bard (The Hobbit - Human Ranger/Archer)
Robinhood (Ranger/Archer)
Genghis Kahn (Ranger/Archer)
William Tell/Toko (Human Archer/Ranger)
William Wallace (Human Archer/Ranger) - He was poaching & being an anti-hero like Robinhood mostly in history.
Paris/Alexander (Human Welp/Archer) - Arguably not good at fighting at all in Troy.

Finally, my family's last name translates into "royal archer" in olde english. We were knighted & served as archers and it runs in the bloodline. 600 years of archery really gets engraved into your skillset it seems -- although I'm the only one of the current generation that isn't very good with a bow (I went martial and practice with a variety of swords). To back up my point, every one of these individuals in my family is a natural bowmen & competent woodsmen - they aren't archers for competition primarily. That's as close to ranger as I can bring it in a modern-day sense.

[SableShadow]

The problem lies in your #2.

Anyone?

Sure.