Tempest KotC vs Pure KotC

[Soul-Shaker]

Edited mine but just noticed prayer thing to lol. Also borror0 how does your formula for swings per sec break down since all you have showing is swings.

I know cforces testing showed that bab 16 twf was 83 attacks per minute base but how would 10% make it go up to 114.

[Monkey_Archer]

Edited mine but just noticed prayer thing to lol. Also borror0 how does your formula for swings per sec break down since all you have showing is swings.

I know cforces testing showed that bab 16 twf was 83 attacks per minute base but how would 10% make it go up to 114.

The theory (havent tested it myself) is that all attack rate increases are multiplied instead of added

Base swing speed + Haste + zeal:
83 * 1.25 * 1.1 = 114

Add Tempest:
114 * 1.1 = 126

[Borror0]

Also borror0 how does your formula for swings per sec break down since all you have showing is swings.

I know cforces testing showed that bab 16 twf was 83 attacks per minute base but how would 10% make it go up to 114.

You've got to add Haste as well, unless you play unhasted.

The possible formulas are:

• base*1.10*1.25
• base*(1+.10+.25)
• base*1.11*1.33
• base*(1+.11+.33)

It all depends on how the bonus are coded and how they stack together.

Thanks to the wonderful tools we got in DDO (note sarcasm) both of these informations are unknown.

[SteeleTrueheart]

From this... i think Tempest Kensai wins...
Other class specific things like better smites vs bow strength can be considered though..

(Tempest/KotC btw)

Thanks for this Monkey. Been doing the same sort of calcs myself... but sidetracked over the last few days to refresh my memory on standard deviations and ... well pointless dice stat stuff

I think that if you factor in the other things like improved/more smites and the ability to get DSIII, pure will be close enough to not worry about.

[Soul-Shaker]

10 damage of Tempest can be debuffed
11 damage of KotC can be debuffed

From this... i think Tempest Kensai wins...
Stop with the kensai lol

Tempest 10 debuffed?? you mean rams +3 and DF +3 for 6
KotC debuffed only has DF +3. DM is a undispellable buff like songs.

[Monkey_Archer]

Tempest 10 debuffed?? you mean rams +3 and DF +3 for 6
KotC debuffed only has DF +3. DM is a undispellable buff like songs.

Rofl...

yeah, yeah... i dont play a pali..

Though, on the topic of kensai.. i do hope the capstone (which is the only reason these 2 are so close) will help narrow the Kensai vs TEmest/kensai gap...

[Borror0]

i do hope the capstone (which is the only reason these 2 are so close) will help narrow the Kensai vs TEmest/kensai gap...

I don't. What about those with 19, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14 or 13 levels of fighter?

[Monkey_Archer]

I don't. What about those with 19, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14 or 13 levels of fighter?

Yeah, i know... what about the poor 19 pali too
Capstones are really a bad way to narrow the gap... but i just dont see a tempest/ranger nerf coming....

[Borror0]

Yeah, i know... what about the poor 19 pali too

Paladin 19 is a dead area but they are far from sad to see. KotC and HotD III are both nice. They only have to multiclass into 18/2's or 18/1/1's... or stay like that and wait for epic levels. Oh, sure, they are less powerful but it is not at a level where it's problematic, really.

Balance is important but let's not go overboard either. Can't (nor shouldn't try to) make everything an appealing option.

There's a limit to how zealous one should be.

Capstones are really a bad way to narrow the gap... but i just dont see a tempest/ranger nerf coming....

...it must happen. Tempest I is just too strong. Take away from it a bit, probably lowering to 7.5 might do it. Move it to Tempest II to make it a tad more appealing and nerf Tempest III before it hits live servers. Right now, there are just no reason not to go 18 ranger if you can.

[Monkey_Archer]

Paladin 19 is a dead area but they are far from sad to see. KotC and HotD III are both nice. They only have to multiclass into 18/2's or 18/1/1's... or stay like that and wait for epic levels. Oh, sure, they are less powerful but it is not at a level where it's problematic, really.

Balance is important but let's not go overboard either. Can't (nor shouldn't try to) make everything an appealing option.

There's a limit to how zealous one should be.

...it must happen. Tempest I is just too strong. Take away from it a bit, probably lowering to 7.5 might do it. Move it to Tempest II to make it a tad more appealing and nerf Tempest III before it hits live servers. Right now, there are just no reason not to go 18 ranger if you can.

I would go further and say 5% at tempest I, 10% at tempest II... and/or nerf FE damage at lower levels.

[Junts]

Hum...
Ok.. im not going back to fix 1 damage on both... Haste numbers added...

Summarry:
Pure KotC does ~5 more dps then tempest/KotC vs evil outsiders
Tempest/KotC does ~15 more dps on anything else

10 damage of Tempest can be debuffed
11 damage of KotC can be debuffed

From this... i think Tempest Kensai wins...
Other class specific things like better smites vs bow strength can be considered though..

divine might an't be debuffed; only 3 damage can be (but all of his icnreased speed) on the 20pal



by the way, guys. divine sac 3 is pally 19, its not gonna be a terrible level I don't think.

accounting for the +7d6/9d6 every 3 seconds from divine sac would also help adjust their dpses slightly.

[Monkey_Archer]

divine might an't be debuffed; only 3 damage can be (but all of his icnreased speed) on the 20pal



by the way, guys. divine sac 3 is pally 19, its not gonna be a terrible level I don't think.

accounting for the +7d6/9d6 every 3 seconds from divine sac would also help adjust their dpses slightly.

Not saying 19 is bad...
but 3d6 capstone damage accounts for:
10.5 * 19 hits / 20 swings * 91 swings per minute / 60 seconds = 15 dps
10.5 * 19 hits / 20 swings * 114 swings per minute / 60 seconds = 19 dps while hasted

Note: This is per weapon: Dual wielding makes capstone result in 30 dps or 38 dps while hasted

[Cold_Stele]

Conclusion?

Tempest is broken of course!

Moving on though -

When not up against Evil Outsiders -

Pure KotC does 94.8% of the DPS of Tempest KotC (311.2/328.3) - slightly less against non-Evil mobs.

Against Evil Outsiders -

Tempest KotC does 98.9% of the DPS of Pure KotC (356/359.7)

Certainly the 14/6 doesn't seem as far ahead as you would expect.

Pure KotC can also get up to an extra +2d6 damage every 4 seconds from Divine Sacrifice III. They also get one precious extra feat (don't get free TWF+ITWF but don't have to take Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack either).

Tempest KotC can afford to start with a little lower Cha perhaps (16 base end goal), but numbers of Divine Mights/rest would be reduced, as well as affecting LOH, etc. They do get the Jump spell however, which is always nice to have.

So, is Tempest KotC better? Well yes, of course.

Is it that much better? I'm going to say no.

I certainly think from this that I'm going to take my 14 Pally all the way to 20.

Monkey, Borro - I can't thank you enough for all your work here, thanks too Soul-Shaker.

[Soul-Shaker]

Cant conclude without DS/ES added into mix

tempest
ESII
2-15 hits 14x49 = 686
5x4 = 20 vs 4x2 = 8 so 12 crit power diff
12x(49+50.5/44.5) + 78seeker = 1272 main / 1200 offhand

3844 /20swings x 9 smites /60secs = 28.83 dps added for first 60 secs

DSII
2-16 hits 14x7d6 = 343 x2 weapons = 686
17-20 hits 4x (50.5 / 44.5 + 6 +7d6) = 324 main / 300 off

(686 + 324 +300) /20 = 65.5 DS ave

65.5 x 60secs/3secs ds/60 = 21.83 DPS added for DS

KotC

ESIII
2-14 hits 13x67 = 871 x2 =
4x6 = 24 vs 2x4 = 8 so 16 crit power difference
16x (67+ 45.5 / 39.5) + 108seeker = 1908 main/ 1812 offhand

5462 /20swings x 12 smites /60secs = 54.62 dps added for first 60 secs.

DSII
2-16 hits 14x9d6 = 441 x2 weapons = 882
17-20 hits 4x (45.5 / 39.5 + 6 +9d6) = 332 main/308 off

(882 + 332 + 308) /20 = 76.1 DS ave

76.1 x 60secs/3secs ds/60 = 25.367 DPS added for DS

Summary

tempest add
ES 28.83 dps added for first 60 secs
DS 21.83 DPS

KotC add
ES 54.62 dps added for first 60 secs.
DS 25.367 DPS

[Monkey_Archer]

I would definately go pure as well...
But you gotta admit, pure pali dps is only saved by the capstone.

[Borror0]

But you gotta admit, pure pali dps is only saved by the capstone.

Not really. It's also saved by KotC.

While Tempest I is always overpowered, KotC is ridiculously powerful in a EO-heavy end game. KotC is the one saving the day, here. Once we'll get out of EO-heavy quests, the DPS will drop dramatically. If dungeon developers start to add more mob diversity in their dungeons, expect paladins to require a new boost and KotC to require non-EO benefits to help paladins.

[Soul-Shaker]

I only see capstone helping compare if your comparing it to the new frenzy berzerker dmg(**** crazy vicous dmg). But comparing to a tempest I disagree.

KotC extra dmg is nice but I'm more of a fan of the extra smites.

My paladin wont be pure, but str hp buffer 18 paladin/2monk for only 1 less smite and -6 smite dmg is good enough for me since I get 2 feats and evasion out of it. I cant see myself going pure to make it even harder for healers jobs.

Also as someone thats been playing both a finesse and a str twf builds, I can tell you that DS + twf is where lots of the dps is coming from currently. Ill regret not going 19 paladin for the 2d6x2 more per 3 seconds but cant be helped.

[Monkey_Archer]

Not really. It's also saved by KotC.

More the capstone, since Tempest also has KotC 2..

every 1d6 damage works out to
3.5 * 19 hits / 20 swings * 91 swing rate / 60 seconds * 2 weapons = 10 dps
Or 3.5 *19/20*100/60*2 = 11.1 dps for tempest

KotC 2 for tempest provides 22.2 dps
KotC 3 provides 40 dps
Capstone provides 30 dps

any normal paladin will have 70 less dps by not taking both
tempest only loses 22.2 by not taking KotC

Edit: Oh yeah.. haste...
3.5 * 19/20*114/60*2 = 12.6 for KotC
3.5*19/20*126/60*2 = 14

KotC 2 for tempest: 28 dps
KotC 3: 50.4
Capstone: 37.8

[Monkey_Archer]

Just a thought....
Tempest pali wont loose too much by not getting KotC 2, the extra Str,Con, AC in stance might be worth looking at..

12DoS/6Tempest/2Rogue - Dps, evasion intimitank with UMD any1?

[Borror0]

More the capstone, since Tempest also has KotC 2..

I was talking about KotC I-III