AC on casters

[sephiroth1084]

Unless you plan on being a battle-caster, doing a lot of melee, I don't think there is any reason to concern yourself with AC.

Also, everyone mentioned Displacement, but don't forget Blur. There are those moments, during a heated fight, when you don't notice your Displacement run out...always nice to have the back-up spell waiting there to pick up a little slack in your defenses.

[Stormanne]

If you are in a party and getting hit on a regular basis, then your team mates are spread out a lil too thin...

[Gadget2775]

Orthon's cleaves also hit my melee's 66 AC on far more than just a 20.

Which is about 16 more AC than your spellblade.

You do the math.

1. Of course you get hit. Nothing I can think of is going to stop that.
2. The numbers reference that I notice a discernible difference between AC types across a range of 32-54. (This is unbuffed AC)

So a 66 AC is 16 more than my unbuffed, throw in buffs and....Less than 16. Makes it that much less amazing that we both get hit. Just because everyone says you have to have a 70 AC for it to matter doesn't make it true. Does a 60 matter less than a 70? Yes. 50 less than 60? Yes. Does a 50 still matter? Of course it does.

Beyond that at no point have I tried to convince the OP that he needs armor on his caster. I kept it simple and gave him basic information on how to get AC, presuming he wants to try it out. Seems to make more sense than pushing people into a cookie cutter.

[Arianrhod]

1. Of course you get hit. Nothing I can think of is going to stop that.
2. The numbers reference that I notice a discernible difference between AC types across a range of 32-54. (This is unbuffed AC)

So a 66 AC is 16 more than my unbuffed, throw in buffs and....Less than 16. Makes it that much less amazing that we both get hit. Just because everyone says you have to have a 70 AC for it to matter doesn't make it true. Does a 60 matter less than a 70? Yes. 50 less than 60? Yes. Does a 50 still matter? Of course it does.

Beyond that at no point have I tried to convince the OP that he needs armor on his caster. I kept it simple and gave him basic information on how to get AC, presuming he wants to try it out. Seems to make more sense than pushing people into a cookie cutter.

This depends on the difficulty levels you're playing at. The one thing you can't get around is that we've got a d20 system here. So, in any fight, there will be one AC that only gets hit on a 20, and another that only gets missed on a 1, and there will be only 20 points between them. If the "Only hit on a 20" AC is 70, the "Only missed on a 1" AC will be 50...in that case, any AC under 50 (even 48) is exactly the same as AC 10. It will only be missed on a 1.

The only way wider AC ranges have any importance is when the to hit bonuses on the monsters vary. So, an AC that's useless on Elite may be worth having on Normal. Or one that's pointless in the Vale may still be valuable in Gianthold.

[Asherons_Chosen]

This depends on the difficulty levels you're playing at. The one thing you can't get around is that we've got a d20 system here. So, in any fight, there will be one AC that only gets hit on a 20, and another that only gets missed on a 1, and there will be only 20 points between them. If the "Only hit on a 20" AC is 70, the "Only missed on a 1" AC will be 50...in that case, any AC under 50 (even 48) is exactly the same as AC 10. It will only be missed on a 1.

The only way wider AC ranges have any importance is when the to hit bonuses on the monsters vary. So, an AC that's useless on Elite may be worth having on Normal. Or one that's pointless in the Vale may still be valuable in Gianthold.

I thought 1 was guaranteed miss and confirmed 20 was guaranteed crit (hit if u have fort). If that is the case (and please correct me if i'm wrong) then ac ranges are not as simple as that. I know for a fact that I miss non-moving 0-ac shroud portals on a roll of 1.

[Arianrhod]

I thought 1 was guaranteed miss and confirmed 20 was guaranteed crit (hit if u have fort). If that is the case (and please correct me if i'm wrong) then ac ranges are not as simple as that. I know for a fact that I miss non-moving 0-ac shroud portals on a roll of 1.

Confirmed 20 (or less, depending on crit range) is a guaranteed crit, yes. But natural 20 is also a guaranteed hit, and natural 1 is a guaranteed miss (even on non-moving targets).

Defense against crits (Heavy Fortification) is a slightly different issue from AC, and highly recommended for any caster (or anyone else with low hitpoints), to avoid getting one-shotted

[bandyman1]

1. Of course you get hit. Nothing I can think of is going to stop that.
2. The numbers reference that I notice a discernible difference between AC types across a range of 32-54. (This is unbuffed AC)

So a 66 AC is 16 more than my unbuffed, throw in buffs and....Less than 16. Makes it that much less amazing that we both get hit. Just because everyone says you have to have a 70 AC for it to matter doesn't make it true. Does a 60 matter less than a 70? Yes. 50 less than 60? Yes. Does a 50 still matter? Of course it does.

Beyond that at no point have I tried to convince the OP that he needs armor on his caster. I kept it simple and gave him basic information on how to get AC, presuming he wants to try it out. Seems to make more sense than pushing people into a cookie cutter.

1) You seem to miss the part where I get hit on far more then just a 20. There's a 16 point spread between our ACs. And it's just 19 varibles on his to-hit roll we have to worry about.

2) I understand that it's unbuffed AC. My pally stands at 60 in a beholder anti-magic field.

Throw in buffs...and my ranger/monk is getting 77. At that point; Yeah. I don't get hit very often at all. But that's a hell of a lot of different than the 50 you seem to think is viable .

[Monkey_Archer]

40 ac is where some trash mobs will start missing (maybe on a 2 )
50 ac is where you might see some benefit vs trash
60 ac is where most trash will miss most of the time
70+ ac is where you may see benefit against bosses and the "better" trash (ie devils,orthons etc..)

Most casters cannot achive a useful ac... dont bother.

[Gordo]

I agree with Fluffy and Myhkke

My human wizzie was able to get to a 35 AC. Useless.
Now I have a 15 AC. This is my first toon 28 pt. build as well.

By not caring about AC... I use/got instead:
-Perma-displacement and heavy fort.
-Shroud +9 Con Sceptre (I have 299 unbuffed HP which is awesome for a caster)
-Standing saves (with items but without GH) of 20, 26 (Insightful reflexes), 23
-Free slots for not bothering with a Dex item or Str item. (Made SP goggles and HP Cloak). Have the VoD bracers and gloves to take the slots of Dex and Str

I have more slots than I can use really since I also made a +9 Intel sceptre so my two hands have 2 of the 3 items I need. The only other I care about is WIS.

Just saying, for me, worrying about AC made me waste an item slot, an ability pt. enhancement, forced me to use DT armor with nothing useful on it since DT "crafting" sux, and I lost a benefit or two from the blue dragon scale armor (still best caster armor IMO) for no benefit at all to not getting hit.

[Lucian_Navarro]

My Wizard/Fighter runs the following AC.

10 Base
03 Dexterity Bonus
12 Armor
06 Shield
04 Natural
05 Deflection
08 Dodge*
04 Misc (Insight)
05 Feat (Combat Expertise)
--
57

* Haste, Chattering Ring, Chaos Gaurde, Alchemical

Optional AC
Bard Song + Ranger Barkskin + Recitation
--
64

[Leyoni]

How are you guys usually bumping up AC on a caster (say on a wf) or are you just ignoring ac?

Most players ignore AC on casters.

However....

In theory you should be able to achieve a huge AC just like the ranger/monk combos by having incredible DEX & WIS along with the right combination of gear. Assuming no Tempest enhancement and level ups going into INT or CHA instead of DEX or WIS you should still be able to get to within 8* of their AC if the rest of your gear is the same.

* Calculating -1 for no Tempest, -2 for no level ups and -5 for no combat expertise.

[Aeneas]

halfling 18wiz/2monk

6 str (whatever here, GS SP gloves perhaps)
16 dex( +2 halfling enh, +2 tome, +6 boots, 4 levels) = 30 (+10)
14 con (+6 necklace, +2 tome) = 22 con
16 int (+3 wiz enh, +2 tome, +6 goggles, +1 level) = 28 int (+9)
15 wis (+1 monk enh, +2 tome, +6 wis GS Conc.Opp. weapon, +2 exceptional gs weap) = 26 (+8)
8 cha (whatever with this stat too, probably a nice GS HP item)

*GS concordant opposition rapier, Unholy, 20%healing amp, +2 exceptional wis. (archons in for heap big problems )

10 base
10 dex
1 racial size
9 monk (level 1 + wis mod)
4 icy raiment
3 chattering ring
8 AC bracers
5 protection item
4 shield spell
4 insight
3 barkskin potion
1 dodge feat
1 haste
1 alchemical AC on robe
+1 two weapon defense
---------------
65 Self Buff TWF

Wiz Feats, 1,5,10,15 = extend, maximize, empower, quicken
Monk Feat = toughness, twf
7 level feats
dodge, weapon finesse, itwf, two weapon defense, least mark, lesser mark, greater mark

Something like that?

EDIT: Honestly, 1 monk 1 rogue for maxed out UMD ranks is probably just as good as 2 monk for evasion - especially considering the fact that you could skip the dragonmark feats (and use heal scrolls) and fill up on goodies like weapon focus, skill focus UMD, or improved critical. Starting at 10 str and eating a tome would open up power attack if you wanted a little punch for your twf. Don't forget that wizards have a scroll and wand mastery line that can boost heal scrolls to about 160, then add in the 20% amp from the rapier, and 10% amp from a finger necklace and you're looking at over 200 hp's from a heal scroll.

[Phidius]

How are you guys usually bumping up AC on a caster (say on a wf) or are you just ignoring ac?

10 base
6 dex
9 armor (+5 DT docent, +2 reinforced plating, +2 composite body)
7 dodge (+3 ring, +2 bracers, +1 alchemical on docent, +1 alchemical on shield)
7 shield (+5 Mithral Heavy Shield)
4 insight bonus to AC (Sovereign rune effect)
5 deflection (Min II helmet)
2 defensive fighting
______________________________
50

3 natural (barkskin pots)
1 haste
______________________________
54

Some players will say that it takes too many hard-to-acquire raid items (expect grief if you pull or roll on a chattering ring - I got it on the 20th so I avoided the drama).

Some will even say that after all that work, the AC is still too low to be worth anything.

It's been worth it to me.

[skraus1]

I run around with between a 6 and 15 ac, and I've never had trouble since launch. Casters are all about avoiding attacks through displacement and primarily through movement. All my slots are full with casting items, so every AC item weakens my casting.

For me, once you hit level 9 or so,
AC on a caster = gimp.