Monk Hand to Hand aided by TWF?

[Cuth]

Quick Question:

Do Monks w/ the two weapon fighting chain get extra attacks when attacking with handwraps?

Thanks --

Cuth

[negative]

Yes.

But they gain no benefits from other TWF feats such as tempest, TWDefense, TWBlocking, etc.

[Red_Knight]

That's funny, because I just replaced toughness with TWF (plan on getting toughness again though) and I'm not seeing any more attacks on my monk. I am enjoying the higher chance to hit with twin kamas though.

[Blazer]

That's funny, because I just replaced toughness with TWF (plan on getting toughness again though) and I'm not seeing any more attacks on my monk. I am enjoying the higher chance to hit with twin kamas though.

I don't believe TWF gives you more attacks, it just reduces the penalty for attacking with two weapons. ITWF and GTWF are the feats you need to grant you more attacks.

[Spectralist]

I don't believe TWF gives you more attacks, it just reduces the penalty for attacking with two weapons.

Normally that is correct, however unarmed monks gain an extra attack roll on their second attack animation with TWF. This might go unnoticed if you aren't paying attention though as the monk's second attack animation looks like 2 attacks whether or not you have TWF, but will only get one roll if you don't have TWF.

[Samadhi]

Normally that is correct, however unarmed monks gain an extra attack roll on their second attack animation with TWF. This might go unnoticed if you aren't paying attention though as the monk's second attack animation looks like 2 attacks whether or not you have TWF, but will only get one roll if you don't have TWF.

This is correct.

[Gadget2775]

All extra TWF attacks for Unarmed Monks are "hooks". There's no change in animation. TWF adds hooks to the second and I think fifth (when you get it) attack sequence.

[Blazer]

Normally that is correct, however unarmed monks gain an extra attack roll on their second attack animation with TWF. This might go unnoticed if you aren't paying attention though as the monk's second attack animation looks like 2 attacks whether or not you have TWF, but will only get one roll if you don't have TWF.

I had not noticed, thanks for the clarification. I'm still new to the world of monks.

[Red_Knight]

Normally that is correct, however unarmed monks gain an extra attack roll on their second attack animation with TWF. This might go unnoticed if you aren't paying attention though as the monk's second attack animation looks like 2 attacks whether or not you have TWF, but will only get one roll if you don't have TWF.

Funny thing about that. My monk at level 5 got three attack rolls. First was at +12 to hit (with +3 handwraps), second was at +12, then a roundhouse kick at +17 O.o

Then I get TWF and I still roll three attacks between first punch and the kick. Their +12, +12, and +17.

Anyone know why the kick gets a extra +5 to hit?

[Gadget2775]

PnP attack progression works on a negative to hit modifier for attacks made later in the chain, this penalty was initially used in DDO. What the Developers found was that players would constantly reset the chain by moving to avoid the penalty, which meant the additional attacks and their associated animations were wasted time. In order to counter this they add a bonus to later attacks as an incentive to use them.

In the current system each additional attack also suffers from a slow down. Which means it takes longer to complete the animation for three strikes than two. This is contrary to PnP, where all additional strikes are made in the same time frame (One round/six second). This factor also cost players DPS (Damage Per Second) which means that if there isn't an incentive to use the later strikes in a sequence no one will.

Those two factors put together lead to the current attack progression of +0, +0, +5, +5, +10.

As for the three attack rolls you're seeing with and without the TWF Feat for Unarmed Monks. The additional strikes an Unarmed Monk gains aren't actually attacks...Rather they're hooks attached to a specific attack sequence. So at BaB 5 an unarmed Monks attack sequence is Punch, Punch Kick, at +0, +0, +5. The TWF feat adds a hook to the second attack, which uses the second strikes attack roll with (iirc) a separate roll for damage.

Hope this helps clear it up

[Red_Knight]

Huh, guess your right. I watched my combat log carefully, and an aditional damage roll was made, but didn't show up as a floaty combat text. Interesting. I wonder why TWF does this?

[Brother_Solar]

There is some good information shown on this wiki page:
http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Attack_sequence

There you can find the normal attack distribution per animation and what each of the Two Weapon Fighting feats will provide. As far as I know, it works the same for unarmed two weapon fighting except there is no -2 penalty.

To sum it up:
Two Weapon Fighting grants a "hook" attack on the second and fifth attack animation.
Improved Two Weapon Fighting grants a "hook" attack on the third attack animation.
Greater Two Weapon Fighting grants a "hook" attack on the first and fourth animation.

By level 15, a monk with the full feat line makes twice as many unarmed attack rolls as a monk without the feat chain. That's why it is a "must have" for unarmed (and for wielding two weapons, of course). I specify level 15 because a pure monk will not have the base attack bonus (+11) necessary to take Greater Two Weapon Fighting until then.

[Gadget2775]

Huh, guess your right. I watched my combat log carefully, and an aditional damage roll was made, but didn't show up as a floaty combat text. Interesting. I wonder why TWF does this?

It's the result of a quick fix. When Monks were first released none of the TWF feats worked with unarmed. Large amounts of community feedback convinced the devs to allow TWF, ITWF and GTWF. However, creating a separate attack animation for Unarmed TWF would have required more time/resources than they felt necessary. Adding hooks provided the same general result in a much quicker/more cost effective manner.