This sort of came up in a different thread, but since I am in the process (early on) of making one, thought I would bring my questions here more or less
Made a WF Wizzie Rogue yesterday, leveled up to three (Bigfatpauly on Khyber). So far have been able to take out any trap I have encountered, and my arcane ability is about the same as my pure Wizzie when he was level 2, which makes sense. Haven't sent anything substantial to this toon yet, want to see how he plays out without a lot of gear.
First level Rogue, second and third level Wizzie. So far so good, but have a couple questions, but first some background on why I wanted to make this toon.
I noticed on my Wizzie 9 that I don't burn and destroy so much as I do on my Sorc, but instead cast spells like Heightened Web, Solid Fog, buffs and debuffs, mainly due to not enough manna to burn everything in the quest. I went WF because that way I can heal myself right from level 1. My eventual plan is to be a self healing buffer and crowd controller with evasion and trap skills, with a somewhat limited ability to burn and destroy if needed. Was looking for a bit of a change of pace, and my two favorite characters to play are my Sorc and my pure Rogue, so wanted to combine them a bit. Also, I wasn't so concerned with having a high Spot as I know where most of the traps are on the low and mid level content, and people are ever so (some might say overly) enthusiastic to point out where they are anyhow.
So my questions.....
1. When is a good time to take my second level of Rogue?
2. My experience with Crowd Control spells (other than Firewall which is more of a Crowd Killer than a Crowd Controller) sort of caps out at caster level 9. At this point, Heightened Web and Solid Fog work well still, but is there a point where they DONT work well anymore, and if so what is a good substitute? I heard they sort of nerfed the Dancing Ball, at least for the Reaver raid.
3. Already preparing to deal with those who will be cranky that I don't have Haste at total character level 5. Can I use Haste Scrolls 100% at total character level 5 even if one or more of them are Rogue levels, or will it call for a level check with a percentage of failure?
4. Insightful Reflexes (think thats what it is called) seems like a great feat, so I can use my Intel modifier instead of my Dex mod for Reflex saves. Is this a 'must have' feat or a 'nice to have' feat to go with Evasion? Will I have enough feats to take the necessary Class Feats, Spell Pen, and IR? My dex is 14 with no items at the moment.
5. So far have been keeping my Search and Disable skills maxed at each level up. If I don't max one of these during a Wizzie level up, can I put multiple points into it at my Rogue level up (or a subsequent Wizzie level up) or does failure to max a skill mean that the ship has sailed?
Thanks for any advice anyone can give me on this, especially those who have made this type of multiclass before.
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Thread: Wizard Rogue??
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02-23-2009, 02:59 PM #1Community Member
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Wizard Rogue??
Thelanis; Strngrdanger, Likkerpig, Byrnt, Obgynkenobi, Severancepay, Buffystmarie.
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02-23-2009, 03:09 PM #2Community Member
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It really depends on your intelligence and skills. I personally am going to take mine at level 7, but that leaves about 4 skill points I put into balance just because my search and disable were already maxxed. I also put 5 points into use magic device in order to bring it up to cap. Realistically your best spot to take a rogue level will be between 7 and 11, depending on character design.
Originally Posted by unionyes
As long as you have heighten, crowd control continues to work well. You'll also want to throw in some insta-kill spells like flesh to stone and finger of death. Originally Posted by unionyes
You'll have it at character level 6. That's the first time sorcerers can have it, so you won't hear too much about it. Originally Posted by unionyes
It's not a must-have (depending on build), but it's definitely very nice. If you take it, you'll really only have to work on two stats (int and con) instead of three (int, con, dex). Any time you can reduce the items required to make your character good you're better off. I personally left my dex at 8 and took the feat, allowing me more points into con. Originally Posted by unionyes
You can add skill points to a skill any time up to max (character level +3). Originally Posted by unionyes
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02-23-2009, 06:38 PM #3Community Member
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My buddy and I paired my pure Wiz, with his Wiz/Rog. Usually as a duo, occasionally with another friend, and sometimes in pugs.
- He comfortably held off 'til level 9.
- For all the capabilities he had, he mostly seemed to buff/charm/hold. The difference in caster levels seemed negligible.
- I can affirm the times we did wind up pugging, it was never an issue.
- What Demoyn said.
- Yes. And, working with a plan will get you the most bang for your buck.
So, I hear that one day we may get Familiars.......I want a Velociraptor!
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02-24-2009, 03:15 PM #4Community Member
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Update, for anyone who cares.
Still level 3 (2 wizzie 1 rogue), did STK last night after Khyber finally came back online.
Got a sorc for the end boss, although I finished him off after the sorc got flattened. Was able to find all the traps on normal and hard, even rolled a 1 on the fire trap on normal and got it. Haven't tried Elite yet. There was some concern in the group that I would not be able to get the traps as I have only one Rogue level. A discussion ensued over search and disable skill, unbuffed and buffed. One person sent me a tell asking if I was telling the truth, the numbers were that good. Running through the fire trap to get to the box was a little dicey as I don't have evasion yet, but I did keep spamming repair light on myself, had a fire resist, and made it through fine.
At this point I am actually casting more effectively from wands, as I have access to level 2 spells on wands but not to memorize. With that in mind, I took Wand Heightening enhancement, will trade it out at some point I am sure.
At this stage I am still a better trapmonkey than a caster, but that will change once I get level 2 spells I think.
Thanks again for the advice guys, both here and in game. See you out there.Thelanis; Strngrdanger, Likkerpig, Byrnt, Obgynkenobi, Severancepay, Buffystmarie.
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02-24-2009, 03:28 PM #5Community Member
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Was going to post this yesterday, but the forum crashed before I could submit...
I would recommend you take your second level of rogue based on how you are distributing your skill points. For example, I would go to the rogue trainer first, and see how many skill points I had left over after maxing the important ones, and only took the level once there were no extra skill points. Originally Posted by unionyes
You might want to wait until character level 13 to take your second rogue, as level 12 (Wiz 11) will give you reconstruct. Sure, you can scroll it, but you can't quicken a scroll
I use Heightened Web + Cloudkill a lot, as well as Acid/Solid Fog + Firewall. Disco Ball is great too, but you need to have max Spell Penetration + Max DCs to really make good use of it. Originally Posted by unionyes
There will be a chance of failure, although not much of one. The biggest problem with scrolling Haste, though, is that Extend doesn't do anything to spells cast from scrolls. If you are going to scroll Haste, they might as well drink pots. Originally Posted by unionyes
I'd recommend that you carry a few Haste pots yourself. When someone is cranky about haste, ask them to stand next to you, and put a pot (just one) in the trade window.
In my opinion, IR is a "must have" feat for a wizard/rogue that maximizes Intelligence. Originally Posted by unionyes
Precious has a Dex of 22 versus an Int of 34-37, and currently uses IR even without evasion.
14 levels of wizard will give you 3 free meta-magic feats, with a 4th once the cap goes up. Your feats will likely be a bit tight at current cap, but will be fine once you take your 15th level of wizard."I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities" - Vaarsuvius, OoTS #674
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02-24-2009, 03:38 PM #6Community Member
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Here's the template that I created so that you have something to look at. It's worth noting that I haven't played this character yet, and it's subject to change still, as I'm sure I can squeeze just a little bit more out of it.
For example, I've pretty much decided to drop use magic device and replace it with open locks. I also may decide to switch the fire and force enhancements (or maybe dropping racial toughness IV and max them both). If I do switch use magic device and open locks, then I'll definitely drop my charisma to 6 and use those points somewhere else.
Code:Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.00 DDO Character Planner Home Page Level 16 True Neutral Warforged Male (2 Rogue \ 14 Wizard) Hit Points: 226 Spell Points: 1144 BAB: 8\8\13 Fortitude: 9 Reflex: 15 Will: 7 Starting Feat/Enhancement Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats (32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 16) Strength 10 10 Dexterity 8 8 Constitution 18 20 Intelligence 18 26 Wisdom 6 6 Charisma 10 10 Tomes Used +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 16 Starting Feat/Enhancement Base Skills Modified Skills Skills (Level 1) (Level 16) Balance 3 6 Bluff 4 4 Concentration 6 24 Diplomacy 0 0 Disable Device 8 28 Haggle 4 4 Heal -2 -2 Hide -1 -1 Intimidate 0 0 Jump 4 5 Listen -2 -2 Move Silently -1 -1 Open Lock n/a n/a Perform n/a n/a Repair 8 12 Search 8 27 Spot 2 2 Swim 4 4 Tumble 3 3 Use Magic Device 4 19 Level 1 (Rogue) Skill: Balance (+4) Skill: Bluff (+4) Skill: Concentration (+2) Skill: Disable Device (+4) Skill: Haggle (+4) Skill: Jump (+4) Skill: Repair (+4) Skill: Search (+4) Skill: Spot (+4) Skill: Swim (+4) Skill: Tumble (+4) Skill: Use Magic Device (+4) Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes Level 2 (Wizard) Skill: Concentration (+2) Skill: Disable Device (+1) Skill: Search (+1) Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell Level 3 (Wizard) Skill: Concentration (+2) Skill: Disable Device (+1) Skill: Search (+1) Feat: (Selected) Toughness Level 4 (Wizard) Ability Raise: INT Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Disable Device (+1) Skill: Search (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5) Level 5 (Wizard) Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Disable Device (+1) Skill: Search (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5) Level 6 (Wizard) Skill: Balance (+0.5) Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Disable Device (+1) Skill: Search (+1) Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness Level 7 (Rogue) Skill: Balance (+2) Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Disable Device (+1) Skill: Jump (+1) Skill: Search (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+5) Level 8 (Wizard) Ability Raise: INT Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Disable Device (+1) Skill: Search (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Level 9 (Wizard) Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Disable Device (+1) Skill: Search (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell Level 10 (Wizard) Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Disable Device (+1) Skill: Search (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Level 11 (Wizard) Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Disable Device (+1) Skill: Search (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Level 12 (Wizard) Ability Raise: INT Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Disable Device (+1) Skill: Search (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell Level 13 (Wizard) Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Disable Device (+1) Skill: Search (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Level 14 (Wizard) Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Disable Device (+1) Skill: Search (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Level 15 (Wizard) Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Disable Device (+1) Skill: Search (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration Level 16 (Wizard) Ability Raise: INT Skill: Balance (+0.5) Skill: Concentration (+1) Skill: Disable Device (+1) Skill: Search (+1) Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering I Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering II Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing I Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing II Enhancement: Racial Toughness I Enhancement: Racial Toughness II Enhancement: Racial Toughness III Enhancement: Racial Toughness IV Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation I Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation II Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation III Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation IV Enhancement: Wizard Force Manipulation I Enhancement: Wizard Force Manipulation II Enhancement: Wizard Force Manipulation III Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar IV Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor I
Last edited by Demoyn; 02-24-2009 at 03:43 PM.
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02-24-2009, 04:42 PM #7Community Member
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The starting stats look a lot like mine, although my wisdom is higher and my constitution is lower. I am not so sure I will need that many HP (gasp) at higher levels since stoneskin, blur, displacement, deathblock, and being able to self heal quickly will make me a little more resilient, and my playstyle does not involve me getting close to any damage that evasion can't take care of. Originally Posted by Demoyn
I have put a few points into Open Lock but don't intend to max it out as I will be able to load Knock once I grow up.Thelanis; Strngrdanger, Likkerpig, Byrnt, Obgynkenobi, Severancepay, Buffystmarie.
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02-25-2009, 10:06 AM #8Community Member
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Originally Posted by unionyes
There are some doors that knock just can't get in level appropriate quests (Tear of Dhakaan and the chest on Titan island come to mind). If you're happy with that tradeoff, then go for it. I decided at the last moment that I wasn't.
Blur and displacement won't work often in high level content. The casters use true seeing. It's true that the character is designed for survival, so you should be fine without a mere 16 more hp, but you can never have too many.
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02-25-2009, 10:28 AM #9Founder
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I wouldn't take the 2nd level Rogue until I had Haste and Extend.
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02-25-2009, 11:26 AM #10Community Member
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Non-crappy advice:
1) Depends what skills you want to max out (versus what you can max from taking wiz @ 16). The later the better, as a rule for the 2nd rog level - it's just a matter of being patient enough to wait for evasion.
2) No, those spells continue to be useful cc w/ heighten end game. While you may be 2-3 DC under a similarly geared & feated pure sorc, you'll still have 30+ dc and that's ample. Ball works fine in reaver as well. They didn't nerf the spell, but they may have buffed the ele's save (I'm not sure, I nuke the ele's personally).
3) It goes off your caster levels, not total levels (or UMD if you have it, whichever probability is highest). Not 100% sure on that though, but that's what I recall.
4) For your build, it would be a must have. While I'm not sure why you'd bump your starting dex to 14 (seems like a waste), it'll still be a min 5-6 save difference. Ideally, you want to be 30+ on your evasion save.
5) End game max for each class skill at level 16 is 19, regardless of how many points you managed to put in along the way. So let's say you only managed rank 12 in umd at level 15. If you have enough points at level 16, you can boost that up to rank 19. This ties back into your first question and why taking your rogue level last usually works best.
Amazing durability/survivability/versatility and a genuinely fun build. The main issue tends to be lack of sp (somewhere around 1600 at best), especially if you tend to play it like a sorc and leave all your meta's on...like I do.
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02-25-2009, 11:29 AM #11Community Member
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Thats my plan. Leveled to Rogue 1 Wizard 3 last night, and suddenly got a lot more effective with second level spells. So far the only thing I have encountered that Evasion would have really helped me with is the fire trap in STK and those pesky lightning bolts those kobolds throw on elite harbor quests. A high Reflex save, Resists, and instant self healing have been enough to get me through those things so far. Originally Posted by Rekker
Have also noticed that although my Spot kinda sucks, my Search and Disable skills are pretty high. I have been comparing with rogues that I run with (privately through tells) on Search and Disable and have not had anyone beat my standing skills yet. I also put a few more points into Open Locks since I was getting sick of standing there trying five or six times to open it, and figured that my tumble was high enough, also remember the futility of watching someone trying to Knock the shrines open in Tear, and realizing that I am going to be the one who really needs those shrines so I better be able to get into them.Thelanis; Strngrdanger, Likkerpig, Byrnt, Obgynkenobi, Severancepay, Buffystmarie.
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03-29-2009, 09:44 PM #12Community Member
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Originally Posted by Demoyn
Any thought to going with Mithral body to get the extra AC? Or is the trade off of fewer spell points of that feat and the Inscribed Armor Enhancements just too much ? Could possibly splash a fighter level to help with the feat, but then you lose a wizard level.
As a solo character, I am thinking you will end up in melee situations more than you might want, so the extra AC might come in handy... thoughts?
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03-29-2009, 10:30 PM #13Community Member
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Hiya Morgeth,
Having spent quite a bit of solo time with my lonely drow wizard, I wouldn't worry much about Mithral Plating.
Get comfortable casting while keeping your character moving. The lowly Expeditious Retreat will keep you out of range better than Mithral will keep the hits off of you.
Further, you can mix stealth in. That fist level as a rogue gives you plenty of skill points for Hide & Move Silent. Learn how to use it (search out Ghoste's Shadowmage build). Use it to scout ahead, or avoid fights. Gaining an advantageous position before things get crazy can give you a bit of initiative against the mobs plans to mes you up.
Put the two together and you can do rather well, without needing the feat and enhancement cost of Mithral.So, I hear that one day we may get Familiars.......I want a Velociraptor!
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03-29-2009, 11:36 PM #14Community Member
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You want Wall of Fire the first moment you can.. so for certain hold off until you are 7w/1r. After that, whenever you feel you are falling behind on skills (and can't stand to wait for evasion), take the level.
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