Concentration & checks

[redoubt]

Mobs don't make them. We do.

Mobs do enough damage, that if you are hit, you will almost always fail.

Idea: Use some sort of scaling to increase our concentration check bonus.

For example:
1. Just double the total number
2. Double the ranks. Bonus would look like: (Ranks X 2) + mods
3. Add total caster levels. Bonus would look like: Ranks + mods + caster level
--- this would include multiclass as well. i.e. 13cleric/1 sorc would count as 14
4. Some sort of combo of the above.

This would mostly benifit the slower casters like clerics and wizards.

Yes, I realize you can take quicken (I have). I do not believe that this would result in 100% success on concentration checks like quicken does. Nor would it speed up casting, so I believe quicken would still have value.

Thanks!

[Impaqt]

Other than blade barriers when I have 10 Orthons chaing me down, I dont fail my Concentration checks often on my character where I really speced for it.... WItha Decent Con, Full ranks, and an item, a 40+ is easily doable. Stoneskin is basically another +10 to concentrationa s well.

Very few mobs whack ya for more than 60-80 a shot unles its a crit.. and if yer wearing heavy fort, thats not an issue.

[Angelus_dead]

Mobs don't make them. We do.

If mobs needed to roll concentration then the game would become way too easy (unless the mobs were also buffed with mega-concentration skill, making the change irrelevant).

As you might have noticed, the casting rate for all mobs is pathetically below even what a PC wizard has, nevermind a sorcerer. If they could additionally fail concentration, they'd almost never get a spell off.

Plus, it is possible to interrupt a mob:

Gimpster is actually quite correct on this one. Hitting non-raid monsters for a certain percentage of its health in a single attack will interrupt whatever it is doing. Some monsters (such as Thaarak Hounds) are more vulnerable to interruption during certain actions (their "dance of death").

Mobs do enough damage, that if you are hit, you will almost always fail.

No.

19 ranks + 3 enhance + 6 con + 15 item + 6 gs + 4 hero + 2 luck + 2 monk + 9 pally = 66.

That character will have a 100% chance to continue a level 6 spell after being hit for 61 damage. Obviously players won't really go all the way up to 66 concen, but most monsters are doing a lot less than 61 damage. A more realistic concen is 19+1+5+10+4+2=41, enough to withstand damage of up to 36 without losing any spells.

[redoubt]

If mobs needed to roll concentration then the game would become way too easy (unless the mobs were also buffed with mega-concentration skill, making the change irrelevant).

As you might have noticed, the casting rate for all mobs is pathetically below even what a PC wizard has, nevermind a sorcerer. If they could additionally fail concentration, they'd almost never get a spell off.

They chain cast a lot of stuff with unlimited mana. You know this.

Plus, it is possible to interrupt a mob:

Yes, I've seen Eladrin's post on this before. How often do you actually stop them from casting? From the previous discussions you had to do something rediculous like 50% of the hp in a single hit.



No.

19 ranks + 3 enhance + 6 con + 15 item + 6 gs + 4 hero + 2 luck + 2 monk + 9 pally = 66.

Ranks = okay
enhancements = 6 AP, not a real good investment really.
6 con = 22 con. that is a huge investment
15 item = sure, great... but I'm all out of item slots already.
GS item = yeah, once I run the shroud 20 times and get my cleansing essence and make a second double supreme item for HP and con skill. First item on the cleric is SP though.
GH assumes someone nearby to cast it.
2 luck assumes you have other raid loot
2 monk assumes a monk is near you (BTW, what is 2 monk luck?)
9 pally assumes a pally is near you.

So, my party MUST be: Me (the cleric), a caster with GH, a monk and a pally, every time just so i can have enough concentration to cast if I get hit. I also have to load constitution, make 2 greensteel items and run the reaver until i get the head of good fortune.

Now AD, you have many great ideas, but this one, this example of max concentratioin in the absolute optimal conditions being used as the reason to not improve something is akin to picking the build that gets over 100AC as the reason to nerf AC.

We both know that the build with 100AC (as posted on the forums) is worthless. So would a build with all you list here be.

That character will have a 100% chance to continue a level 6 spell after being hit for 61 damage. Obviously players won't really go all the way up to 66 concen, but most monsters are doing a lot less than 61 damage. A more realistic concen is 19+1+5+10+4+2=41, enough to withstand damage of up to 36 without losing any spells.

Yes, much more realistic. I get hit for more than 36 a lot, with heavy fort on...

[Angelus_dead]

To insert colored text into someone else's quote is obnoxious, and demonstrates a disinterest in having a serious conversation.

Yes, much more realistic. I get hit for more than 36 a lot, with heavy fort on...

Do you have a point, or any way to support your claim that Concentration is too hard?

They chain cast a lot of stuff

Wrong.

From the previous discussions you had to do something rediculous like 50% of the hp in a single hit.

Wrong. Apparently you should either read the thread, or go try it.

So, my party MUST be: Me (the cleric), a caster with GH, a monk and a pally, every time just so i can have enough concentration to cast if I get hit.

Pathetically untrue.

You don't need all that help "just to cast if I get hit": having all those things will give you a 100% chance to continue casting after taking 61 damage, which is way beyond what should be needed.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I wouldn't mind adding just caster levels to the check to scale concentration up a bit given the reality of the scaled up DDO damage. That said, quicken is your friend.

[Mirta]

If mobs needed to roll concentration then the game would become way too easy (unless the mobs were also buffed with mega-concentration skill, making the change irrelevant).

As you might have noticed, the casting rate for all mobs is pathetically below even what a PC wizard has, nevermind a sorcerer.

So that arcane skelly in level 3-7 quests casting 3 scorching rays per second doesn't cast as fast as I do?

Plus, it is possible to interrupt a mob:

It sure is--by killing it. Other than that, I've seen a monster make a concentration check after I hit it with a crit polar ray (1000+ damage, 2000+ on fire based).

19 ranks + 3 enhance + 6 con + 15 item + 6 gs + 4 hero + 2 luck + 2 monk + 9 pally = 66.

Our concentration checks are fine IMO. My sorc has 57 concentration and only fails on either: a) death, or b) spells like chain lightning or DBF doing 100+ damage. Seems reasonable.

That character will have a 100% chance to continue a level 6 spell after being hit for 61 damage. Obviously players won't really go all the way up to 66 concen, but most monsters are doing a lot less than 61 damage. A more realistic concen is 19+1+5+10+4+2=41, enough to withstand damage of up to 36 without losing any spells.

Five plus damage? I never really tested this out so thanks. I just assumed it was a d20 plus damage since my lowbie casters get interrupted no matter their concentration or damage taken.

In red.

[Hellllboy]

Doesnt the feat Quicken, when used, not require a concentration check? You may wanna look into that if you are having trouble.

[Mirta]

Doesnt the feat Quicken, when used, not require a concentration check? You may wanna look into that if you are having trouble.

Two problems with that.

1) It requires a feat to be wasted on it.
2) It uses extra spell points.

[redoubt]

To insert colored text into someone else's quote is obnoxious, and demonstrates a disinterest in having a serious conversation.

No more colored text. I will herein appologize for not have the same forum skills that you do.

I simply copied a form of reply I have seen others use. It seemed to me to be easier to distinguish the respondents comments from the original (using colored text that is.)

However, this is apparently inappropriate and unless I have the html skills (or whatever language the quote mechanisms are) I am patently uninterested in having a meaningful conversation.

Therefore, you win. I publicly appologize for attempting to have a constructive conversation about improvements to our game.

Again, you win. I shall play your way and assume that all you say is true and irrefutible.

(It is a sad day, when a little colored text can completely ruin a potentially decent discussion.)


From that other thread: (of course I don't know how to make the super cool link to a single post that I'm sure you would have done.) The first part is what Gimpster said, then Eladrin responds. You are, of course, correct again. It is only 20-25% of the monsters total hit points that must be dealt to interrupt a spell. I guess since there are no mobs that take more than 5 hits to kill, they will fail their concentration checks a lot more than I thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimpster
In addition, you can interrupt any kind of monster action by damaging it for around 20-25% of his total hp with one shot. That goes for spells, attacks, and whatever.

Eladrin:
Gimpster is actually quite correct on this one. Hitting non-raid monsters for a certain percentage of its health in a single attack will interrupt whatever it is doing. Some monsters (such as Thaarak Hounds) are more vulnerable to interruption during certain actions (their "dance of death").

[darkrhavyn]

I dont know about all the numbers that you guys are crunching but I will tell you something....my experience with 2 capped clerics, a capped sorc and a wizard are that without quicken my clerics are in deep trouble trying to get a spell off at end game and my wizard has issues as well.
Now all this equipment is great to talk about, but honestly...I loot a fair amount and I have never even seen a concentration item above 11...I know they exist, but have I found one? For the ones of us who play to have a good time and dont want to grind forvever and ever to make infinite Shroud items and finally find that last piece if gear...without quicken casting is HIT and miss so to speak.

Do I think they should change it? Not really--I do just fine as is....I just had to plan to take quicken in my builds and learn when to turn it on and when I'm gonna be fine. Sorta like heighten and maximize and all the other metamagics.....for me, they are situational...if I need a 2000 pt fireball, they are on....if I dont...Im content with extra mana and 200 pt fireballs.

[MetaSyn]

mid 40ish your set, not hard to reach at all

[Angelus_dead]

No more colored text. I will herein appologize for not have the same forum skills that you do.

(It is a sad day, when a little colored text can completely ruin a potentially decent discussion.)

Fine, I'll explain it:

When you avoid the correct methods to reply to a quote and instead go inside someone else's text and insert little bits here and there which you offset with color, you are being fundamentally unfair, because you are taking advantage of a reply style that can't be used to reply back to you. If your replies are embedded inside someone else's quotes, then other people can't use the "Quote" button to start a reply like you did.

It's a signal that you don't respect the time of anyone who might feel like answering you.

To make a "Replies in red" means the Quote button doesn't work, so it's as if you don't care for anyone to quote you.

However, this is apparently inappropriate and unless I have the html skills (or whatever language the quote mechanisms are) I am patently uninterested in having a meaningful conversation.

How ironic: the reason the colored-insert reply style is so bad is because anyone who wants to quote it will have to spend excessive effort picking apart the BBcode manually.

[redoubt]

Fine, I'll explain it:

When you avoid the correct methods to reply to a quote and instead go inside someone else's text and insert little bits here and there which you offset with color, you are being fundamentally unfair, because you are taking advantage of a reply style that can't be used to reply back to you. If your replies are embedded inside someone else's quotes, then other people can't use the "Quote" button to start a reply like you did.

It's a signal that you don't respect the time of anyone who might feel like answering you.

To make a "Replies in red" means the Quote button doesn't work, so it's as if you don't care for anyone to quote you.


How ironic: the reason the colored-insert reply style is so bad is because anyone who wants to quote it will have to spend excessive effort picking apart the BBcode manually.

I know this will be shocking, but I've never found another thread where someone explained that. It actually makes sense. Knowing WHY, I most likely will not do that sort of thing any more. (A lot easier to get a reasoned response when you are not assuming someone is deliberately disrespecting you, is it not?)

So when do we get the lesson on the multi-part quote? And the multi-person quote?