Can a Tempest Kensai do 2 times the dps of a Greatsword Kensai????

[Borror0]

However, that's a bad way to fix it, because it's imbalanced and does nothing to help characters with from 11 to 19 fighter levels.

Couldn't agree more.

It's quite obvious that they are trying to make capstones strong enough to measure up against the advantage splashing has to offer, but it's a poor way to address that problem. As you've said, it does not help fighter from 11 to 19. Secondly, when you consider the advantage for splashing one level, often, a +10% melee alacrity is absurdly powerful.

Divine Grace or +10% attack speed? The dilemma just isn't there.

[Borror0]

sorry but that still amuses me that an 18/2 would somehow want ki bonuses...

They put it there out of flavor. It is not considered in the power of the PrE, but they thought it might be a feature some players might be interested to investigate. If not now, maybe in a few levels of when monk don't suck anymore. Who knows.

I certainly hope you know that.

[Monkey_Archer]

They put it there out of flavor. It is not considered in the power of the PrE, but they thought it might be a feature some players might be interested to investigate. If not now, maybe in a few levels of when monk don't suck anymore. Who knows.

I certainly hope you know that.

6/14 or 12/8 builds could use this to good effect im sure. I will shake the hand of any 18/2 that choses to use monk weapons.

[Borror0]

6/14 or 12/8 builds could use this to good effect im sure. I will shake the hand of any 18/2 that choses to use monk weapons.

What are you complaining about then?

[Monkey_Archer]

No complaints.
Just pointing out that the capstone argument helping fighters overcome the lvl 12+ deficiencies is not really a good way to handle this.
Maybe if kensai could make use of Ki somehow without monk levels (Ki empowered powersurge anyone?)

[Borror0]

No complaints.
Just pointing out that the capstone argument helping fighters overcome the lvl 12+ deficiencies is not really a good way to handle this.
Maybe if kensai could make use of Ki somehow without monk levels (Ki empowered powersurge anyone?)

Err, no. Kensai is not relevant to the problem.

[toughguyjoe]

Yes, this may be a bit extreme... but the results were surprising...
Kensai 12/ranger8 using Khopesh vs Kensai 20 using greatsword

Total Strength 18 +5 levels +6 item +3 tome + 3 fighter +1 human + 2 ragepot = 38
Kensai Str: 38 + 8 powersurge = 46
Tempest str: 38 + 8 powersurge + 2 rams might = 48

Buffs used: Warchanter, prayer, rage pot
Weapons used: Min 2 greatsword vs dual Min 2 Khopesh

Greatsword Kensai

Damage:
10.5 Greatsword
5 weapon mod
27 str mod
2 Weapon spec enh
4 Weapon spec feats
4 kensai damage
8 warchanter
1 prayer
10 Power attack
---
71.5

Effects:
7 holy
3.5 acid burst
2.5 slicing
---
13

Total hit: 84.5

Crit damage:
143 (71.5 x2)
13 effects
11 acid burst + acid blast
28 seeker (6 bloodstone +8kensai x2)
---
195 crit
14 (4d6 acid blast on a 20)
---
209 crit 20

attack 1: 0 damage
attacks 2-15: 84.5
attack 16-19: 195
attack 20: 209

total hits: 14x84.5 = 1183
total crits: 4x195 = 780
crit on a 20: 1x209 = 209

average damage (1183 +780 +209) / 20 = 108.6

Greatsword swing rate = 76 per minute

76 x 108.6 /60 = 137.6 dps

Offhand attacks occur on 3/5 swings and do about 50% damage
3/5 * 50% = 30% additional dps from glancing blows

137.6 + 30% = 178.1 dps with glancing blows

Tempest Kensai

5.5 Khopesh
5 weapon mod
19 str mod
1 weapon spec enh
4 weapon spec feats
2 kensai damage
2 rams might
6 FE damage
8 warchanter
1 prayer
5 power attack
---
58.5 mainhand
48.5 offhand (-10 for str)

Effects:
7 holy
3.5 acid
2.5 slicing
---
13

Total mainhand: 71.5
Total offhand 61.5


Mainhand Crit damage:
175.5 (58.5 x3)
13 effects
22 acid burst + acid blast
30 seeker (6 bloodstone +4kensai)
---
240.5
14 acid blast 20
---
254.5

Offhand crit damage:
145.5 (48.5 x3)
13 effects
22 acid burst + acid blast
30 seeker (6 bloodstone +4 kensai)
---
210.5
14 acid blast 20
---
224.5

(Mainhand + offhand)
attacks 1:0 damage
attacks 2-16: 71.5 + 61.5 = 133
attacks 17-19: 240.5 + 210.5 = 451
attack 20: 254.5 +224.5 = 479

total hits: 15 x 133 = 1995
total crits: 3 x 451 = 1353
Crit on a 20: 1 x479 = 479

average damage (2025 + 1371 + 485) /20 = 191.4

2-weapon swing rate = 83 +10 tempest = 93

93 x 194 /60 = 296.6 dps


The Results?
Tempest Kensai 296.6 vs Greatsword Kensai 178.1

So no, tempest kensai cant do double damage, but can come pretty close....

My thoughts?
Kensai 3 needs a big boost...
2-handed fighters should be completely removed from the game...

All right i HATE math. I want someone to do something for me, if they would be so kind. Hit up these DPS numbers for me.

Barbarian 16/Fighter4(min II GA)
Weapon Spec slashing
Crit rage I & II
Str 42 fully raged
Glancing blows at whatever percentage you had figured was accurate
Weapon effects on glancing blows at whatever you had figured was going to be accurate(not to mention my WF enhancements i was promised for it)
Reactives: Thornguard(1d8), minor ice guard(50% 1d4), Ice guard(1d8), Lesser good guard(1d4), Steam guard(20% 2d8+8), Crushing wave guard(I would say 35% chance of 20-50bludg,20-50 cold), Lightning strike guard(2% chance of 500-700 dmg boom), Disentigration guard(2% chance of zap for 450-600), corrosive salt guard( don't know the proc rate on this one, but 3 ticks of 77 damage)

assume my AC is 0.

Assume the rangers ac is good enough so he doesn't get hit so often i guess.

crunch you monkeys crunch my numbers...muahahahahaha

[Monkey_Archer]

All right i HATE math. I want someone to do something for me, if they would be so kind. Hit up these DPS numbers for me.

Barbarian 16/Fighter4(min II GA)
Weapon Spec slashing
Crit rage I & II
Str 42 fully raged
Glancing blows at whatever percentage you had figured was accurate
Weapon effects on glancing blows at whatever you had figured was going to be accurate(not to mention my WF enhancements i was promised for it)
Reactives: Thornguard(1d8), minor ice guard(50% 1d4), Ice guard(1d8), Lesser good guard(1d4), Steam guard(20% 2d8+8), Crushing wave guard(I would say 35% chance of 20-50bludg,20-50 cold), Lightning strike guard(2% chance of 500-700 dmg boom), Disentigration guard(2% chance of zap for 450-600), corrosive salt guard( don't know the proc rate on this one, but 3 ticks of 77 damage)

assume my AC is 0.

Assume the rangers ac is good enough so he doesn't get hit so often i guess.

crunch you monkeys crunch my numbers...muahahahahaha

No crunching neccesary...
4x3 crits is about equal to 2x5 crits and +6str.
See FB numbers above and subtract vicious damage. Tempest Kensai Pwns u.

[Monkey_Archer]

Err, no. Kensai is not relevant to the problem.

No, kensai is not relevent to the problem that fighter level 12+ sucks....
But it is a problem that Kensai 3 does not match up to FB 3, Tempest 3, or tempest 1.

[Borror0]

But it is a problem that Kensai 3 does not match up to FB 3, Tempest 3, or tempest 1.

You got one out of three right, the other two are not.

[Monkey_Archer]

You got one out of three right, the other two are not.

Crit range < crit mult + 4d6 vicious +4 str
Crit range < STWF +1 attack bonus +1 AC

[Borror0]

Crit range < crit mult + 4d6 vicious +4 str
Crit range < STWF +1 attack bonus +1 AC

Irrelevant. I'd like Kensai III to get a boost, but it has little bearing on "fixing fighters."

At least, if you want to do it correctly.

[toughguyjoe]

No crunching neccesary...
4x3 crits is about equal to 2x5 crits and +6str.
See FB numbers above and subtract vicious damage. Tempest Kensai Pwns u.

Ok so i guess i listed my reactives to just take up more space? what i was asking is that if a THF WF Barb is going to just swing his axe and blast all with his slots not taking reactives or other such goodness to make himself a better toon then yeah, hes horrid before you even bother to crunch the numbers.

[Monkey_Archer]

Ok so i guess i listed my reactives to just take up more space? what i was asking is that if a THF WF Barb is going to just swing his axe and blast all with his slots not taking reactives or other such goodness to make himself a better toon then yeah, hes horrid before you even bother to crunch the numbers.

I ignored the reactives because there is no reason why the tempest ranger couldnt get the same thing...

This was never a thread about what gear you can use to get better dps..

[Monkey_Archer]

Irrelevant. I'd like Kensai III to get a boost, but it has little bearing on "fixing fighters."

At least, if you want to do it correctly.

Both need fixing in my oppinion... along with THFs...
Fixing kensai doesnt fix fighters and vice versa

[toughguyjoe]

I ignored the reactives because there is no reason why the tempest ranger couldnt get the same thing...

This was never a thread about what gear you can use to get better dps..

Then i guess you only wanted to look at the small broken picture that everyone knows is broken. tempest is amazing for DPS. if this is a news flash for you, you need to play a bit more often. I was trying to see how far i could come in DPS numbers comparatively, with the current set ups and the best gear for the job.

Not whining saying "fix this fix this"

I was trying to make due with what i had. if you show me a tempest character with all those reactives i'll point you in the direction of some other toons with the wrong gear.

[Borror0]

along with THFs...

Cool. Would you mind suggesting me as a potential ML player so I can try that too?

[Monkey_Archer]

Then i guess you only wanted to look at the small broken picture that everyone knows is broken. tempest is amazing for DPS. if this is a news flash for you, you need to play a bit more often. I was trying to see how far i could come in DPS numbers comparatively, with the current set ups and the best gear for the job.

Not whining saying "fix this fix this"

I was trying to make due with what i had. if you show me a tempest character with all those reactives i'll point you in the direction of some other toons with the wrong gear.

Actually, i should probably play less often....

1) Reactives are nearly impossible to calculate accuratly
2) What gear is "right" or "wrong" has nothing to do with class, and everything to do with player preference
3) Like i said, this thread is not about gear.... Adding variables like different gear or different buffs just makes a class comparison inacurate.

[Cold_Stele]

Reactives: Thornguard(1d8), minor ice guard(50% 1d4), Ice guard(1d8), Lesser good guard(1d4), Steam guard(20% 2d8+8), Crushing wave guard(I would say 35% chance of 20-50bludg,20-50 cold), Lightning strike guard(2% chance of 500-700 dmg boom), Disentigration guard(2% chance of zap for 450-600), corrosive salt guard( don't know the proc rate on this one, but 3 ticks of 77 damage)

crunch you monkeys crunch my numbers...muahahahahaha

There's absolutely and utterly no way anyone could ever calculate this, just think about what you're asking him to do.

You'd have to measure exactly how many mobs are swinging at you and how often they're swinging and for how long.

Then measure it again for every single encounter you want to know how good your reactives are.

No reason to take that out on Monkey.

[Monkey_Archer]

There's absolutely and utterly no way anyone could ever calc.....

Hum... now im gonna have to calculate it....
Err.. maybe tommorow when im not so tired..