Can a Tempest Kensai do 2 times the dps of a Greatsword Kensai????

[Deathseeker]

A few things to consider...

1. As has been said, THF includes the benefit of damaging multiple foes simultaneously so comparing to a single target can be somewhat misleading.
2. This assumes that you hit on a 2+. While in current end game that is not a terrible assumption, we don't know how valid that will be in 20+ elite content. The Kensai will have a much higher to-hit bonus. It doesnt take much for them to suddenly leap back into contention. If the mobs dont have decent AC though, then this becomes moot.
3. Passive, non-passable, mob DR has a very large effect on this. If we see mobs with 5/- or 10/- DR commonly that the transmuting won't bypass, that tilts things substantially more toward the THF.
4. As has been said, this should really be a Greataxe vs Kopesh analysis. Greatsword has its only failings aside from the TWF vs THF issues or Fighter vs Ranger issues.

Not suggesting the ultimate conclusion is incorrect, just pointing out that the devs have visibility to the above more than we do right now, and hopefully are taking them into account which explains the current disparity. Insert cynical comment here...

[hu-flung-pu]

So we're all in agreement then?

Time to bust out "Tome of Battle" maneuvers as fighter feats and enhancements?

[Monkey_Archer]

A few things to consider...

1. As has been said, THF includes the benefit of damaging multiple foes simultaneously so comparing to a single target can be somewhat misleading.
2. This assumes that you hit on a 2+. While in current end game that is not a terrible assumption, we don't know how valid that will be in 20+ elite content. The Kensai will have a much higher to-hit bonus. It doesnt take much for them to suddenly leap back into contention. If the mobs dont have decent AC though, then this becomes moot.
3. Passive, non-passable, mob DR has a very large effect on this. If we see mobs with 5/- or 10/- DR commonly that the transmuting won't bypass, that tilts things substantially more toward the THF.
4. As has been said, this should really be a Greataxe vs Kopesh analysis. Greatsword has its only failings aside from the TWF vs THF issues or Fighter vs Ranger issues.

Not suggesting the ultimate conclusion is incorrect, just pointing out that the devs have visibility to the above more than we do right now, and hopefully are taking them into account which explains the current disparity. Insert cynical comment here...

1. With these kind of numbers you would need to fight 4+ monsters at a time just to do equal damage, and, unless they put in more nests of kobolds i dont think this will make up for the 122 less dps..
2. Kensai 3 gives no to-hit bonus, leaving the THF only +2 over the tempest kensai
3. With THF hitting for around 70, TWF hitting for around 50 and glancing blows hitting for around 30... DR would affect TWF slightly more then THF on single target dps, but would affect multiple enemy glancing blows even more.

This was originally intended as an unfortunate joke....
But I suppose there are 4 main issues that could be addressed here...
Greatsword vs Greataxe
THF vs TWF
Tempest 1 vs Kensai 3
Ranger lvl 1-6 vs Fighter lvl 15-20

Greataxe beats greatsword, always, in any conditions... unfortunate...
TWF beats THF. There are arguments over this, but for most, this has been obvious since greensteel weapon and lvl 16 bard buffs have been around.
Tempest 1 beats kensai 1. See eairlier post...

The only redeeming factor for the 2-handed kensai is that we dont yet know what 17+ fighters will get. But beating rams might and 6 FE damage is not gonna be easy...

[Delt]

I would rather see 5% attack speed for each tier of tempest... (5,10,15%)
Would be better for all the pure rangers....
Current tempest 1 is THE MOST powerful single PrE tier there is, and no tier 3 of any melee class can beat it...

Some facts about your suggestion:

- Tempest is also the most intensive Tier 1 ability
- Nerfing Tempest Tier 1 without a complete respec feature would **** off too many subscribers
- Your suggestion actually improves the current end game fotm (18ranger+2) which is anywhere from misguided to ********...

I like being reminded why developers do not listen to 99% of their playerbase. Thanks.

[Aeneas]

Some facts about your suggestion:

- Tempest is also the most intensive Tier 1 ability
- Nerfing Tempest Tier 1 without a complete respec feature would **** off too many subscribers
- Your suggestion actually improves the current end game fotm (18ranger+2) which is anywhere from misguided to ********...

I like being reminded why developers do not listen to 99% of their playerbase. Thanks.

It's not really that intense. You're getting twf and itwf as well as all your bow feats for free. Not to mention die hard at level 3. There really isn't much else you'd need to spend your feats on at that level. Human rangers are even less "burdened" by the feat requirement.

[hu-flung-pu]

His idea to alter rangers wasn't so bad, but smaller increments to 10% would help.

5%-> 7.5%-> 10%

And Tempest may be the most Feat intensive, but every other PrE we've seen has to take something utterly rediculous or marginally helpful. All the while dodge (+1 AC), Mobility (Tumbling AC if you need it, quantifies as marginally useful), and Spring Attack (immensely helpful if you're in a zerg or die group.) All contribute to a class that's got so many other benefits built in to it. Healing wands, spells, favored enemie defensive and offensive bonuses, and bow strength.

That's like telling a barbarian to take power attack AND cleave, for a PrE... Oh wait, we already have that in Frenzied berzerker.

As a fighter, I'd gladly spend six feats to get what the Tempest Ranger gets at tier 1.

[Bosco]

Whats the stats on that?

[Monkey_Archer]

Some facts about your suggestion:

- Tempest is also the most intensive Tier 1 ability
- Nerfing Tempest Tier 1 without a complete respec feature would **** off too many subscribers
- Your suggestion actually improves the current end game fotm (18ranger+2) which is anywhere from misguided to ********...

I like being reminded why developers do not listen to 99% of their playerbase. Thanks.

Some additional facts:

-Tempest 1 costs 3 feat no AP, ranger 1-6 gets 3 free feats.... its not expensive at all compared to kensai....
-If reducing your attack speed by 5% would cause you to stop playing the game... i would reccommend you .... stop playing the game....
- Rewarding someone who doesnt take advantage of all the benefits of multiclassing?

Right... lots of people have dedicated too much of their lives researching builds to have some developer come along and even things up a bit....

Hmm... maybe if a noobish build was 1 step up from useless, more people would stick with the game... even if we did lose a couple powergamers complaining about a 5% loss...

[Monkey_Archer]

As a fighter, I'd gladly spend six feats to get what the Tempest Ranger gets at tier 1.

I second that....

[Monkey_Archer]

Whats the stats on that?

Quite good actually... but still not close to tempest kensai...

Sword of Shadow Kensai

Damage:
7 Greatsword
5 weapon mod
27 str mod
2 Weapon spec enh
4 Weapon spec feats
4 kensai damage
8 warchanter
1 prayer
10 Power attack
---
68

Effects:
0

Total hit: 68

Crit damage:
204 (68 x3)
42 seeker (6 bloodstone +8kensai x3)
---
246 crit


attack 1: 0 damage
attacks 2-13: 68
attack 14-20: 246


total hits: 12x68 = 816
total crits: 7x246 = 1722


average damage (816 + 1722) / 20 = 126.9

Greatsword swing rate = 76 per minute

76 x 126.9 /60 = 160.7 dps

Offhand attacks occur on 3/5 swings and do about 50% damage
3/5 * 50% = 30% additional dps from glancing blows

137.6 + 30% = 209 dps with glancing blows

[BlackSteel]

bad thing about the comparisons is that the only thing that benefits THF more than TWF is high STR and more Power Attack. Kensai damage increase is equal, but everything else is favored for the twf. Sucks for any non WF barb that likes to use two handers, because they miss out on 12 damage a swing. Not to mention the lower str modifier.

[Monkey_Archer]

bad thing about the comparisons is that the only thing that benefits THF more than TWF is high STR and more Power Attack. Kensai damage increase is equal, but everything else is favored for the twf. Sucks for any non WF barb that likes to use two handers, because they miss out on 12 damage a swing. Not to mention the lower str modifier.

Yep... WF barbs can do well as THF (supreme cleave and vicious damage comes to mind here) which easily justifies taking THF over TWF for FB for half the self-inflicted damage and stronger cleaves..
Unfortuantly, Eladrin has indicated that Kensai is likely to be the Fighter PrE choice for 2-handed fighters.
So far, the best (and pretty much only good) kensai build is dual khopesh, and taking tempest 1 just makes this even better.
So far the best 2-handed fighter build is to scrap all 20 fighter levels and go barb instead.

[QuantumFX]

In regards to the Tempest Speed boost.

They ought to add in a prereq of Ranger Sprint boost to the PrE and give the PrE one of those second channel buffs. (ex. Assassin Poison, Kensai Power Surge, Defensive Stance, etc.) Make it last one minute, live on the second channel and mimic Fighter/Rogue Haste Boost I/II/III. (Note: Don’t let it stack with Fighter/Rogue Haste Boost I/II/III.)

[smyter]

I am really like this thread. You are doing a great job, Monkey. Would you imnd throwing together a pure TWF Kensai fighter to see how they pale vs a tempest ranger. Dualing khopeshes for apples to apples, and then try a dwarven axe with dwarf enhancements would be fun too.

[Monkey_Archer]

I am really like this thread. You are doing a great job, Monkey. Would you imnd throwing together a pure TWF Kensai fighter to see how they pale vs a tempest ranger. Dualing khopeshes for apples to apples, and then try a dwarven axe with dwarf enhancements would be fun too.

Sure thing... (dwarf fighters please avert your eyes...)

Tempest Kensai

5.5 Khopesh
5 weapon mod
19 str mod
1 weapon spec enh
4 weapon spec feats
2 kensai damage
2 rams might
6 FE damage
8 warchanter
1 prayer
5 power attack
---
58.5 mainhand
48.5 offhand (-10 for str)

Effects:
7 holy
3.5 acid
2.5 slicing
---
13

Total mainhand: 71.5
Total offhand 61.5


Mainhand Crit damage:
175.5 (58.5 x3)
13 effects
22 acid burst + acid blast
30 seeker (6 bloodstone +4kensai)
---
240.5
14 acid blast 20
---
254.5

Offhand crit damage:
145.5 (48.5 x3)
13 effects
22 acid burst + acid blast
30 seeker (6 bloodstone +4 kensai)
---
210.5
14 acid blast 20
---
224.5

(Mainhand + offhand)
attacks 1:0 damage
attacks 2-16: 71.5 + 61.5 = 133
attacks 17-19: 240.5 + 210.5 = 451
attack 20: 254.5 +224.5 = 479

total hits: 15 x 133 = 1995
total crits: 3 x 451 = 1353
Crit on a 20: 1 x479 = 479

average damage (2025 + 1371 + 485) /20 = 191.4

2-weapon swing rate = 83 +10 tempest = 93

93 x 194 /60 = 296.6 dps


-------------------------------------------------------------------

Kensai Khopesh

5.5 Khopesh
5 weapon mod
18 str mod
2 weapon spec enh
4 weapon spec feats
2 kensai damage
8 warchanter
1 prayer
5 power attack
---
50.5 mainhand
41.5 offhand (-9 for str)

Effects:
7 holy
3.5 acid
2.5 slicing
---
13

Total mainhand: 63.5
Total offhand 54.5


Mainhand Crit damage:
151.5 (50.5 x3)
13 effects
22 acid burst + acid blast
30 seeker (6 bloodstone +4kensai)
---
216.5
14 acid blast 20
---
230.5

Offhand crit damage:
124.5 (41.5 x3)
13 effects
22 acid burst + acid blast
30 seeker (6 bloodstone +4 kensai)
---
189.5
14 acid blast 20
---
203.5

(Mainhand + offhand)
attacks 1:0 damage
attacks 2-15: 63.5 + 54.5 = 118
attacks 16-19: 216.5 + 189.5 = 406
attack 20: 230.5 +203.5 = 434

total hits: 14 x 118 = 1652
total crits: 4 x 406 = 1624
Crit on a 20: 1 x434 = 434

average damage (1652 + 1624 + 434) /20 = 185.5

2-weapon swing rate = 83

83 x 185.5 /60 = 256.6 dps


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kensai Dwarvern axe

9 Dwarvern Axe
5 weapon mod
18 str mod
2 weapon spec enh
4 weapon spec feats
2 kensai damage
2 dwarf enhancements
8 warchanter
1 prayer
5 power attack
---
56 mainhand
47 offhand (-9 for str)

Effects:
7 holy
3.5 acid
2.5 slicing
---
13

Total mainhand: 69
Total offhand 60


Mainhand Crit damage:
168 (56 x3)
13 effects
22 acid burst + acid blast
30 seeker (6 bloodstone +4kensai)
---
233
14 acid blast 20
---
247

Offhand crit damage:
141 (47 x3)
13 effects
22 acid burst + acid blast
30 seeker (6 bloodstone +4 kensai)
---
206
14 acid blast 20
---
220

(Mainhand + offhand)
attacks 1:0 damage
attacks 2-17: 69 + 60 = 129
attacks 18-19: 233 + 206 = 439
attack 20: 247 +220 = 467

total hits: 16 x 129 = 2064
total crits: 2 x 439 = 878
Crit on a 20: 1 x467 = 467

average damage (2064 + 878 + 467) /20 = 170.5

2-weapon swing rate = 83

83 x 170.5 /60 = 235.9 dps


Keep in mind Khopesh and Dwarvern Axes (or Picks) are the best weapon choices for kensai....

EDIT:Forgot to remove rams might str... numbers editted for kensai

[Monkey_Archer]

And not to leave out the poor elf kensai...

Kensai Rapier

4.5 Rapier
5 weapon mod
18 str mod
2 weapon spec enh
4 weapon spec feats
2 kensai damage
8 warchanter
2 Elf Enhancements
1 prayer
5 power attack
---
51.5 mainhand
42.5 offhand (-9 for str)

Effects:
7 holy
3.5 acid
2.5 slicing
---
13

Total mainhand: 64.5
Total offhand 55.5


Mainhand Crit damage:
103 (51.5 x2)
13 effects
11 acid burst + acid blast
20 seeker (6 bloodstone +4kensai)
---
147
14 acid blast 20
---
161

Offhand crit damage:
85 (42.5 x3)
13 effects
11 acid burst + acid blast
20 seeker (6 bloodstone +4 kensai)
---
129
14 acid blast 20
---
143

(Mainhand + offhand)
attacks 1:0 damage
attacks 2-13: 64.5 + 55.5 = 120
attacks 14-19: 147 + 129 = 276
attack 20: 161 + 143 = 304

total hits: 12 x 120 = 1440
total crits: 6 x 276 = 1656
Crit on a 20: 1 x304 = 304

average damage (1440 + 1656 + 304) /20 = 170

2-weapon swing rate = 83

83 x 170 /60 = 235.2 dps

-------------------------------

Kensai Longsword

5.5 Longsword
5 weapon mod
18 str mod
2 weapon spec enh
4 weapon spec feats
2 kensai damage
8 warchanter
2 Elf Enhancements
1 prayer
5 power attack
---
52.5 mainhand
43.5 offhand (-9 for str)

Effects:
7 holy
3.5 acid
2.5 slicing
---
13

Total mainhand: 65.5
Total offhand 56.5


Mainhand Crit damage:
105 (52.5 x2)
13 effects
11 acid burst + acid blast
20 seeker (6 bloodstone +4kensai)
---
149
14 acid blast 20
---
163

Offhand crit damage:
87 (43.5 x3)
13 effects
11 acid burst + acid blast
20 seeker (6 bloodstone +4 kensai)
---
131
14 acid blast 20
---
145

(Mainhand + offhand)
attacks 1:0 damage
attacks 2-15: 65.5 + 56.5 = 122
attacks 16-19: 149 + 131 = 280
attack 20: 163 + 145 = 308

total hits: 14 x 122 = 1708
total crits: 4 x 280 = 1120
Crit on a 20: 1 x308 = 308

average damage (1708 + 1120 + 308) /20 = 157

2-weapon swing rate = 83

83 x 157 /60 = 217.2 dps

[smyter]

How is the tempest kensai getting "2 weapon spec enh". Don't you need 16 fighter levels to get that?

[Deathseeker]

Monkey, this is a great thread, nice job.

Are we sure favored enemy bonuses and the damage portion of ram's might are applied to the crit modifier? Just double checking...

Would be interesting to see the Kopesh vs Kopesh analysis assuming you hit on a 6 instead of a 2. That would benefit the full Kensai somewhat due to the slightly better to-hit bonus and the crit accuracy enhancement bonuses.

Looks to me like favored enemy is really the big differentiator in all this. Without that bonus, it look decently balanced.

[Monkey_Archer]

How is the tempest kensai getting "2 weapon spec enh". Don't you need 16 fighter levels to get that?

good catch.. numbers edited.

[Monkey_Archer]

Monkey, this is a great thread, nice job.

Are we sure favored enemy bonuses and the damage portion of ram's might are applied to the crit modifier? Just double checking...

Would be interesting to see the Kopesh vs Kopesh analysis assuming you hit on a 6 instead of a 2. That would benefit the full Kensai somewhat due to the slightly better to-hit bonus and the crit accuracy enhancement bonuses.

Looks to me like favored enemy is really the big differentiator in all this. Without that bonus, it look decently balanced.

Pretty sure FE counts for crits... could be wrong though.

Kenasi gets all to hit bonuses at lvl 12 and nothing for tier 3, so the tempest/kensai actually has +1 to hit due to rams might...

Numbers without FE damage, and tempest/kensai hits on a 2, kensai hits on a 3..

Tempest Kensai

5.5 Khopesh
5 weapon mod
19 str mod
1 weapon spec enh
4 weapon spec feats
2 kensai damage
2 rams might
8 warchanter
1 prayer
5 power attack
---
52.5 mainhand
42.5 offhand (-10 for str)

Effects:
7 holy
3.5 acid
2.5 slicing
---
13

Total mainhand: 65.5
Total offhand 55.5


Mainhand Crit damage:
157.5 (52.5 x3)
13 effects
22 acid burst + acid blast
30 seeker (6 bloodstone +4kensai)
---
222.5
14 acid blast 20
---
236.5

Offhand crit damage:
127.5 (42.5 x3)
13 effects
22 acid burst + acid blast
30 seeker (6 bloodstone +4 kensai)
---
192.5
14 acid blast 20
---
206.5

(Mainhand + offhand)
attacks 1:0 damage
attacks 2-16: 65.5 + 55.5 = 121
attacks 17-19: 222.5 + 192.5 = 415
attack 20: 236.5 + 206.5 = 443

total hits: 15 x 121 = 1815
total crits: 3 x 415 = 1245
Crit on a 20: 1 x443 = 443

average damage (2025 + 1371 + 485) /20 = 175.2

2-weapon swing rate = 83 +10 tempest = 93

93 x 175.2 /60 = 271.5 dps


-------------------------------------------------------------------

Kensai Khopesh

5.5 Khopesh
5 weapon mod
18 str mod
2 weapon spec enh
4 weapon spec feats
2 kensai damage
8 warchanter
1 prayer
5 power attack
---
50.5 mainhand
41.5 offhand (-9 for str)

Effects:
7 holy
3.5 acid
2.5 slicing
---
13

Total mainhand: 63.5
Total offhand 54.5


Mainhand Crit damage:
151.5 (50.5 x3)
13 effects
22 acid burst + acid blast
30 seeker (6 bloodstone +4kensai)
---
216.5
14 acid blast 20
---
230.5

Offhand crit damage:
124.5 (41.5 x3)
13 effects
22 acid burst + acid blast
30 seeker (6 bloodstone +4 kensai)
---
189.5
14 acid blast 20
---
203.5

(Mainhand + offhand)
attacks 1-2:0 damage
attacks 3-15: 63.5 + 54.5 = 118
attacks 16-19: 216.5 + 189.5 = 406
attack 20: 230.5 +203.5 = 434

total hits: 13 x 118 = 1534
total crits: 4 x 406 = 1624
Crit on a 20: 1 x434 = 434

average damage (1652 + 1624 + 434) /20 = 179.6

2-weapon swing rate = 83

83 x 185.5 /60 = 248.4 dps