Can a Tempest Kensai do 2 times the dps of a Greatsword Kensai????

[Monkey_Archer]

Yes, this may be a bit extreme... but the results were surprising...
Kensai 12/ranger8 using Khopesh vs Kensai 20 using greatsword

Total Strength 18 +5 levels +6 item +3 tome + 3 fighter +1 human + 2 ragepot = 38
Kensai Str: 38 + 8 powersurge = 46
Tempest str: 38 + 8 powersurge + 2 rams might = 48

Buffs used: Warchanter, prayer, rage pot
Weapons used: Min 2 greatsword vs dual Min 2 Khopesh

Greatsword Kensai

Damage:
10.5 Greatsword
5 weapon mod
27 str mod
2 Weapon spec enh
4 Weapon spec feats
4 kensai damage
8 warchanter
1 prayer
10 Power attack
---
71.5

Effects:
7 holy
3.5 acid burst
2.5 slicing
---
13

Total hit: 84.5

Crit damage:
143 (71.5 x2)
13 effects
11 acid burst + acid blast
28 seeker (6 bloodstone +8kensai x2)
---
195 crit
14 (4d6 acid blast on a 20)
---
209 crit 20

attack 1: 0 damage
attacks 2-15: 84.5
attack 16-19: 195
attack 20: 209

total hits: 14x84.5 = 1183
total crits: 4x195 = 780
crit on a 20: 1x209 = 209

average damage (1183 +780 +209) / 20 = 108.6

Greatsword swing rate = 76 per minute

76 x 108.6 /60 = 137.6 dps

Offhand attacks occur on 3/5 swings and do about 50% damage
3/5 * 50% = 30% additional dps from glancing blows

137.6 + 30% = 178.1 dps with glancing blows

Tempest Kensai

5.5 Khopesh
5 weapon mod
19 str mod
1 weapon spec enh
4 weapon spec feats
2 kensai damage
2 rams might
6 FE damage
8 warchanter
1 prayer
5 power attack
---
58.5 mainhand
48.5 offhand (-10 for str)

Effects:
7 holy
3.5 acid
2.5 slicing
---
13

Total mainhand: 71.5
Total offhand 61.5


Mainhand Crit damage:
175.5 (58.5 x3)
13 effects
22 acid burst + acid blast
30 seeker (6 bloodstone +4kensai)
---
240.5
14 acid blast 20
---
254.5

Offhand crit damage:
145.5 (48.5 x3)
13 effects
22 acid burst + acid blast
30 seeker (6 bloodstone +4 kensai)
---
210.5
14 acid blast 20
---
224.5

(Mainhand + offhand)
attacks 1:0 damage
attacks 2-16: 71.5 + 61.5 = 133
attacks 17-19: 240.5 + 210.5 = 451
attack 20: 254.5 +224.5 = 479

total hits: 15 x 133 = 1995
total crits: 3 x 451 = 1353
Crit on a 20: 1 x479 = 479

average damage (2025 + 1371 + 485) /20 = 191.4

2-weapon swing rate = 83 +10 tempest = 93

93 x 194 /60 = 296.6 dps


The Results?
Tempest Kensai 296.6 vs Greatsword Kensai 178.1

So no, tempest kensai cant do double damage, but can come pretty close....

My thoughts?
Kensai 3 needs a big boost...
2-handed fighters should be completely removed from the game...

[Aesop]

2 things.

I'm not sure about how glancing blows figure in overall as we don't have the numbers for what it will do come Mod 9

and

this does only account for single target combat fighting 2 or more critters may swing things a bit more in the favor of two handed fighting.



as for the conclusion... I'd say that it is not Kensai 3 but THF that needs an examination... THF has always been slower than any style (excepting range) and greatsword the slowest in that grouping.


There is also the question of whether the choice of weapon will make a difference. Khopesh after all as an exotic weapon with a 19-20 x3 crit is about the most powerful singlehanded weapon in game ... dps wise that is


Aesop

[Vra]

the problem with THF damg calculation is that it will always loose to the TWF when up against 1 enemy, but when fighting 2+ mobs it will do more damage(weapon effect hit on glancing blows)

again, as aesop says we need more info on how big the percentage of the weapon effect going off on glancing blows before we can determine the DPS/kill with effect output against trash-mobs

and wouldnt a greataxe/maul give a higher DPS output because of swingrates?

against bosses, yes it is darn annoying that THF and TWF are not closer DPS wise

[Monkey_Archer]

Considering glancing blows as 50% damage is overestimating...
Currently glancing blows only do around 40-45% of base damage and do nothing extra on crits...
For this i considered it as 50% of all damage including weapon effects and crits, which is probably quite a bit more damage then they will actually do, even if kensai has 100% chance of adding weapon effects.

Glancing blows only account for about 41 dps in this and with the tempest doing 122 more dps, you would have to be fighting about 4 monsters at a time just to do equal damage. Glancing blows to multiple enemies are an advantage of the style (much like the extra ac and extra chances to vorpal, stat damage that TWF has)

I say kensai 3 needs a boost because of an eairlier comparison I did of Tempest/kensai vs Kensai TWF... in which the tempest easily did alot more dps...

[BlackSteel]

try using a greataxe instead, along with a swing rate of 100 nonhasted instead of 73

[Monkey_Archer]

try using a greataxe instead, along with a swing rate of 100 nonhasted instead of 73

This is a comparison of 2 equally valid weapon choices, with equal buffs, using the swing rates the game designers put into the game.... For fun, to prove a point...

It is not an exercise in how to maximise your dps....
But, for your entertainment...
Greataxe Kensai Twitch Gamer vs Kensai Tempest Club Master....

str 18 +5 levels +6 item +3 tome + 3 fighter +1 human + 2 ragepot = 38

Kensai Str: 38 + 8 powersurge = 46

Damage:
10.5 Greataxe
5 weapon mod
27 str mod
2 Weapon spec enh
4 Weapon spec feats
4 kensai damage
8 warchanter
1 prayer
10 Power attack
---
71.5

Effects:
7 holy
3.5 acid burst
2.5 slicing
---
13

Total hit: 84.5

Crit damage:
214.5 (71.5 x3)
13 effects
22 acid burst + acid blast
42 seeker (6 bloodstone +8kensai x2)
---
291.5 crit
14 (4d6 acid blast on a 20)
---
305.5 crit 20

attack 1: 0 damage
attacks 2-17: 84.5
attack 18-19: 291.5
attack 20: 305.5

total hits: 16x84.5 = 1352
total crits: 2x291.5 = 583
crit on a 20: 1x305.5 = 305.5

average damage (1352 +583 + 305.5) / 20 = 112

GreatAxe twitch swing rate = 100 per minute

100 x 112 /60 = 186.7 dps

Offhand attacks occur on 1/3 swings and do about 50% damage
1/3 * 50% = 17% additional dps from glancing blows
186.7 + 17% = 218.4 dps with glancing blows

--------------------------------------------------------
Tempest Kensai str: 36 +2 rams +8 powersurge = 48
4.5 Club
5 weapon mod
19 str mod
2 weapon spec enh
4 weapon spec feats
2 kensai damage
2 rams might
6 FE damage
8 warchanter
1 prayer
5 power attack
---
58.5 mainhand
48.5 offhand (-10 for str)

Effects:
7 holy
3.5 acid
2.5 slicing
---
13

Total mainhand: 71.5
Total offhand 61.5


Mainhand Crit damage:
117 (58.5 x2)
13 effects
11 acid burst + acid blast
20 seeker (6 bloodstone +4kensai)
---
161
14 acid blast 20
---
175

Offhand crit damage:
97 (48.5 x2)
13 effects
11 acid burst + acid blast
20 seeker (6 bloodstone +4 kensai)
---
141
14 acid blast 20
---
155

(Mainhand + offhand)
attacks 1:0 damage
attacks 2-16: 71.5 + 61.5 = 133
attacks 19: 175 + 155 = 302
attack 20: 257.5 +227.5 = 330

total hits: 17 x 133 = 2261
total crits: 1 x 302 = 302
Crit on a 20: 1 x330 = 330

average damage (2261 + 302 + 330) /20 = 144.7

2-weapon swing rate = 83 +10 tempest = 93

93 x 144.7 /60 = 224.3 dps


Greataxe 218.4 vs 224 Dual clubs...

[Bosco]

Whats the stats on that?

[Monkey_Archer]

Whats the stats on that?

Quite good actually... but still not close to tempest kensai...

Sword of Shadow Kensai

Damage:
7 Greatsword
5 weapon mod
27 str mod
2 Weapon spec enh
4 Weapon spec feats
4 kensai damage
8 warchanter
1 prayer
10 Power attack
---
68

Effects:
0

Total hit: 68

Crit damage:
204 (68 x3)
42 seeker (6 bloodstone +8kensai x3)
---
246 crit


attack 1: 0 damage
attacks 2-13: 68
attack 14-20: 246


total hits: 12x68 = 816
total crits: 7x246 = 1722


average damage (816 + 1722) / 20 = 126.9

Greatsword swing rate = 76 per minute

76 x 126.9 /60 = 160.7 dps

Offhand attacks occur on 3/5 swings and do about 50% damage
3/5 * 50% = 30% additional dps from glancing blows

137.6 + 30% = 209 dps with glancing blows

[BlackSteel]

bad thing about the comparisons is that the only thing that benefits THF more than TWF is high STR and more Power Attack. Kensai damage increase is equal, but everything else is favored for the twf. Sucks for any non WF barb that likes to use two handers, because they miss out on 12 damage a swing. Not to mention the lower str modifier.

[Monkey_Archer]

bad thing about the comparisons is that the only thing that benefits THF more than TWF is high STR and more Power Attack. Kensai damage increase is equal, but everything else is favored for the twf. Sucks for any non WF barb that likes to use two handers, because they miss out on 12 damage a swing. Not to mention the lower str modifier.

Yep... WF barbs can do well as THF (supreme cleave and vicious damage comes to mind here) which easily justifies taking THF over TWF for FB for half the self-inflicted damage and stronger cleaves..
Unfortuantly, Eladrin has indicated that Kensai is likely to be the Fighter PrE choice for 2-handed fighters.
So far, the best (and pretty much only good) kensai build is dual khopesh, and taking tempest 1 just makes this even better.
So far the best 2-handed fighter build is to scrap all 20 fighter levels and go barb instead.

[QuantumFX]

In regards to the Tempest Speed boost.

They ought to add in a prereq of Ranger Sprint boost to the PrE and give the PrE one of those second channel buffs. (ex. Assassin Poison, Kensai Power Surge, Defensive Stance, etc.) Make it last one minute, live on the second channel and mimic Fighter/Rogue Haste Boost I/II/III. (Note: Don’t let it stack with Fighter/Rogue Haste Boost I/II/III.)

[smyter]

I am really like this thread. You are doing a great job, Monkey. Would you imnd throwing together a pure TWF Kensai fighter to see how they pale vs a tempest ranger. Dualing khopeshes for apples to apples, and then try a dwarven axe with dwarf enhancements would be fun too.

[toughguyjoe]

Yes, this may be a bit extreme... but the results were surprising...
Kensai 12/ranger8 using Khopesh vs Kensai 20 using greatsword

Total Strength 18 +5 levels +6 item +3 tome + 3 fighter +1 human + 2 ragepot = 38
Kensai Str: 38 + 8 powersurge = 46
Tempest str: 38 + 8 powersurge + 2 rams might = 48

Buffs used: Warchanter, prayer, rage pot
Weapons used: Min 2 greatsword vs dual Min 2 Khopesh

Greatsword Kensai

Damage:
10.5 Greatsword
5 weapon mod
27 str mod
2 Weapon spec enh
4 Weapon spec feats
4 kensai damage
8 warchanter
1 prayer
10 Power attack
---
71.5

Effects:
7 holy
3.5 acid burst
2.5 slicing
---
13

Total hit: 84.5

Crit damage:
143 (71.5 x2)
13 effects
11 acid burst + acid blast
28 seeker (6 bloodstone +8kensai x2)
---
195 crit
14 (4d6 acid blast on a 20)
---
209 crit 20

attack 1: 0 damage
attacks 2-15: 84.5
attack 16-19: 195
attack 20: 209

total hits: 14x84.5 = 1183
total crits: 4x195 = 780
crit on a 20: 1x209 = 209

average damage (1183 +780 +209) / 20 = 108.6

Greatsword swing rate = 76 per minute

76 x 108.6 /60 = 137.6 dps

Offhand attacks occur on 3/5 swings and do about 50% damage
3/5 * 50% = 30% additional dps from glancing blows

137.6 + 30% = 178.1 dps with glancing blows

Tempest Kensai

5.5 Khopesh
5 weapon mod
19 str mod
1 weapon spec enh
4 weapon spec feats
2 kensai damage
2 rams might
6 FE damage
8 warchanter
1 prayer
5 power attack
---
58.5 mainhand
48.5 offhand (-10 for str)

Effects:
7 holy
3.5 acid
2.5 slicing
---
13

Total mainhand: 71.5
Total offhand 61.5


Mainhand Crit damage:
175.5 (58.5 x3)
13 effects
22 acid burst + acid blast
30 seeker (6 bloodstone +4kensai)
---
240.5
14 acid blast 20
---
254.5

Offhand crit damage:
145.5 (48.5 x3)
13 effects
22 acid burst + acid blast
30 seeker (6 bloodstone +4 kensai)
---
210.5
14 acid blast 20
---
224.5

(Mainhand + offhand)
attacks 1:0 damage
attacks 2-16: 71.5 + 61.5 = 133
attacks 17-19: 240.5 + 210.5 = 451
attack 20: 254.5 +224.5 = 479

total hits: 15 x 133 = 1995
total crits: 3 x 451 = 1353
Crit on a 20: 1 x479 = 479

average damage (2025 + 1371 + 485) /20 = 191.4

2-weapon swing rate = 83 +10 tempest = 93

93 x 194 /60 = 296.6 dps


The Results?
Tempest Kensai 296.6 vs Greatsword Kensai 178.1

So no, tempest kensai cant do double damage, but can come pretty close....

My thoughts?
Kensai 3 needs a big boost...
2-handed fighters should be completely removed from the game...

All right i HATE math. I want someone to do something for me, if they would be so kind. Hit up these DPS numbers for me.

Barbarian 16/Fighter4(min II GA)
Weapon Spec slashing
Crit rage I & II
Str 42 fully raged
Glancing blows at whatever percentage you had figured was accurate
Weapon effects on glancing blows at whatever you had figured was going to be accurate(not to mention my WF enhancements i was promised for it)
Reactives: Thornguard(1d8), minor ice guard(50% 1d4), Ice guard(1d8), Lesser good guard(1d4), Steam guard(20% 2d8+8), Crushing wave guard(I would say 35% chance of 20-50bludg,20-50 cold), Lightning strike guard(2% chance of 500-700 dmg boom), Disentigration guard(2% chance of zap for 450-600), corrosive salt guard( don't know the proc rate on this one, but 3 ticks of 77 damage)

assume my AC is 0.

Assume the rangers ac is good enough so he doesn't get hit so often i guess.

crunch you monkeys crunch my numbers...muahahahahaha

[Monkey_Archer]

All right i HATE math. I want someone to do something for me, if they would be so kind. Hit up these DPS numbers for me.

Barbarian 16/Fighter4(min II GA)
Weapon Spec slashing
Crit rage I & II
Str 42 fully raged
Glancing blows at whatever percentage you had figured was accurate
Weapon effects on glancing blows at whatever you had figured was going to be accurate(not to mention my WF enhancements i was promised for it)
Reactives: Thornguard(1d8), minor ice guard(50% 1d4), Ice guard(1d8), Lesser good guard(1d4), Steam guard(20% 2d8+8), Crushing wave guard(I would say 35% chance of 20-50bludg,20-50 cold), Lightning strike guard(2% chance of 500-700 dmg boom), Disentigration guard(2% chance of zap for 450-600), corrosive salt guard( don't know the proc rate on this one, but 3 ticks of 77 damage)

assume my AC is 0.

Assume the rangers ac is good enough so he doesn't get hit so often i guess.

crunch you monkeys crunch my numbers...muahahahahaha

No crunching neccesary...
4x3 crits is about equal to 2x5 crits and +6str.
See FB numbers above and subtract vicious damage. Tempest Kensai Pwns u.

[toughguyjoe]

No crunching neccesary...
4x3 crits is about equal to 2x5 crits and +6str.
See FB numbers above and subtract vicious damage. Tempest Kensai Pwns u.

Ok so i guess i listed my reactives to just take up more space? what i was asking is that if a THF WF Barb is going to just swing his axe and blast all with his slots not taking reactives or other such goodness to make himself a better toon then yeah, hes horrid before you even bother to crunch the numbers.

[Monkey_Archer]

Ok so i guess i listed my reactives to just take up more space? what i was asking is that if a THF WF Barb is going to just swing his axe and blast all with his slots not taking reactives or other such goodness to make himself a better toon then yeah, hes horrid before you even bother to crunch the numbers.

I ignored the reactives because there is no reason why the tempest ranger couldnt get the same thing...

This was never a thread about what gear you can use to get better dps..

[toughguyjoe]

I ignored the reactives because there is no reason why the tempest ranger couldnt get the same thing...

This was never a thread about what gear you can use to get better dps..

Then i guess you only wanted to look at the small broken picture that everyone knows is broken. tempest is amazing for DPS. if this is a news flash for you, you need to play a bit more often. I was trying to see how far i could come in DPS numbers comparatively, with the current set ups and the best gear for the job.

Not whining saying "fix this fix this"

I was trying to make due with what i had. if you show me a tempest character with all those reactives i'll point you in the direction of some other toons with the wrong gear.

[Cold_Stele]

Reactives: Thornguard(1d8), minor ice guard(50% 1d4), Ice guard(1d8), Lesser good guard(1d4), Steam guard(20% 2d8+8), Crushing wave guard(I would say 35% chance of 20-50bludg,20-50 cold), Lightning strike guard(2% chance of 500-700 dmg boom), Disentigration guard(2% chance of zap for 450-600), corrosive salt guard( don't know the proc rate on this one, but 3 ticks of 77 damage)

crunch you monkeys crunch my numbers...muahahahahaha

There's absolutely and utterly no way anyone could ever calculate this, just think about what you're asking him to do.

You'd have to measure exactly how many mobs are swinging at you and how often they're swinging and for how long.

Then measure it again for every single encounter you want to know how good your reactives are.

No reason to take that out on Monkey.

[Monkey_Archer]

There's absolutely and utterly no way anyone could ever calc.....

Hum... now im gonna have to calculate it....
Err.. maybe tommorow when im not so tired..

[Monkey_Archer]

Crushing wave (at least on weapons) is 5% for 3 ticks of cold/bludeon damage, not 35% for 1 tick.... i havent used wave guard, so i could be wrong here

Being a dual-shard effect like lighting strike im guessing salt guard is also 2% for 4 ticks, again i could be wrong, as ive never actually used it...

using these assumtions:
1d8 = 4.5
50% 1d4 = 1.25
1d8 = 4.5
1d4 = 2.5
20% 2d8+8 = 3.4
5% wave = 10.5
2% lighting = 12
2% dicintegrate = 10.5
2% corrosive salt = 6.2

total: 55.35 damage per hit

Lets say.... while fighting aaretrikos for example... you might get hit... say 30 times per minute? more or less depending on how close you stand next to the tempest/kensai

55.35 x 30 / 60 = 27.675 dps

unfortunatle he is immune to 11.25 of that damage....
so its more like 44.1 x 30 / 60 = 22.05 dps