Can a Tempest Kensai do 2 times the dps of a Greatsword Kensai????

[Monkey_Archer]

Yes, this may be a bit extreme... but the results were surprising...
Kensai 12/ranger8 using Khopesh vs Kensai 20 using greatsword

Total Strength 18 +5 levels +6 item +3 tome + 3 fighter +1 human + 2 ragepot = 38
Kensai Str: 38 + 8 powersurge = 46
Tempest str: 38 + 8 powersurge + 2 rams might = 48

Buffs used: Warchanter, prayer, rage pot
Weapons used: Min 2 greatsword vs dual Min 2 Khopesh

Greatsword Kensai

Damage:
10.5 Greatsword
5 weapon mod
27 str mod
2 Weapon spec enh
4 Weapon spec feats
4 kensai damage
8 warchanter
1 prayer
10 Power attack
---
71.5

Effects:
7 holy
3.5 acid burst
2.5 slicing
---
13

Total hit: 84.5

Crit damage:
143 (71.5 x2)
13 effects
11 acid burst + acid blast
28 seeker (6 bloodstone +8kensai x2)
---
195 crit
14 (4d6 acid blast on a 20)
---
209 crit 20

attack 1: 0 damage
attacks 2-15: 84.5
attack 16-19: 195
attack 20: 209

total hits: 14x84.5 = 1183
total crits: 4x195 = 780
crit on a 20: 1x209 = 209

average damage (1183 +780 +209) / 20 = 108.6

Greatsword swing rate = 76 per minute

76 x 108.6 /60 = 137.6 dps

Offhand attacks occur on 3/5 swings and do about 50% damage
3/5 * 50% = 30% additional dps from glancing blows

137.6 + 30% = 178.1 dps with glancing blows

Tempest Kensai

5.5 Khopesh
5 weapon mod
19 str mod
1 weapon spec enh
4 weapon spec feats
2 kensai damage
2 rams might
6 FE damage
8 warchanter
1 prayer
5 power attack
---
58.5 mainhand
48.5 offhand (-10 for str)

Effects:
7 holy
3.5 acid
2.5 slicing
---
13

Total mainhand: 71.5
Total offhand 61.5


Mainhand Crit damage:
175.5 (58.5 x3)
13 effects
22 acid burst + acid blast
30 seeker (6 bloodstone +4kensai)
---
240.5
14 acid blast 20
---
254.5

Offhand crit damage:
145.5 (48.5 x3)
13 effects
22 acid burst + acid blast
30 seeker (6 bloodstone +4 kensai)
---
210.5
14 acid blast 20
---
224.5

(Mainhand + offhand)
attacks 1:0 damage
attacks 2-16: 71.5 + 61.5 = 133
attacks 17-19: 240.5 + 210.5 = 451
attack 20: 254.5 +224.5 = 479

total hits: 15 x 133 = 1995
total crits: 3 x 451 = 1353
Crit on a 20: 1 x479 = 479

average damage (2025 + 1371 + 485) /20 = 191.4

2-weapon swing rate = 83 +10 tempest = 93

93 x 194 /60 = 296.6 dps


The Results?
Tempest Kensai 296.6 vs Greatsword Kensai 178.1

So no, tempest kensai cant do double damage, but can come pretty close....

My thoughts?
Kensai 3 needs a big boost...
2-handed fighters should be completely removed from the game...

[Aesop]

2 things.

I'm not sure about how glancing blows figure in overall as we don't have the numbers for what it will do come Mod 9

and

this does only account for single target combat fighting 2 or more critters may swing things a bit more in the favor of two handed fighting.



as for the conclusion... I'd say that it is not Kensai 3 but THF that needs an examination... THF has always been slower than any style (excepting range) and greatsword the slowest in that grouping.


There is also the question of whether the choice of weapon will make a difference. Khopesh after all as an exotic weapon with a 19-20 x3 crit is about the most powerful singlehanded weapon in game ... dps wise that is


Aesop

[Vra]

the problem with THF damg calculation is that it will always loose to the TWF when up against 1 enemy, but when fighting 2+ mobs it will do more damage(weapon effect hit on glancing blows)

again, as aesop says we need more info on how big the percentage of the weapon effect going off on glancing blows before we can determine the DPS/kill with effect output against trash-mobs

and wouldnt a greataxe/maul give a higher DPS output because of swingrates?

against bosses, yes it is darn annoying that THF and TWF are not closer DPS wise

[Monkey_Archer]

Considering glancing blows as 50% damage is overestimating...
Currently glancing blows only do around 40-45% of base damage and do nothing extra on crits...
For this i considered it as 50% of all damage including weapon effects and crits, which is probably quite a bit more damage then they will actually do, even if kensai has 100% chance of adding weapon effects.

Glancing blows only account for about 41 dps in this and with the tempest doing 122 more dps, you would have to be fighting about 4 monsters at a time just to do equal damage. Glancing blows to multiple enemies are an advantage of the style (much like the extra ac and extra chances to vorpal, stat damage that TWF has)

I say kensai 3 needs a boost because of an eairlier comparison I did of Tempest/kensai vs Kensai TWF... in which the tempest easily did alot more dps...

[BlackSteel]

try using a greataxe instead, along with a swing rate of 100 nonhasted instead of 73

[Monkey_Archer]

try using a greataxe instead, along with a swing rate of 100 nonhasted instead of 73

This is a comparison of 2 equally valid weapon choices, with equal buffs, using the swing rates the game designers put into the game.... For fun, to prove a point...

It is not an exercise in how to maximise your dps....
But, for your entertainment...
Greataxe Kensai Twitch Gamer vs Kensai Tempest Club Master....

str 18 +5 levels +6 item +3 tome + 3 fighter +1 human + 2 ragepot = 38

Kensai Str: 38 + 8 powersurge = 46

Damage:
10.5 Greataxe
5 weapon mod
27 str mod
2 Weapon spec enh
4 Weapon spec feats
4 kensai damage
8 warchanter
1 prayer
10 Power attack
---
71.5

Effects:
7 holy
3.5 acid burst
2.5 slicing
---
13

Total hit: 84.5

Crit damage:
214.5 (71.5 x3)
13 effects
22 acid burst + acid blast
42 seeker (6 bloodstone +8kensai x2)
---
291.5 crit
14 (4d6 acid blast on a 20)
---
305.5 crit 20

attack 1: 0 damage
attacks 2-17: 84.5
attack 18-19: 291.5
attack 20: 305.5

total hits: 16x84.5 = 1352
total crits: 2x291.5 = 583
crit on a 20: 1x305.5 = 305.5

average damage (1352 +583 + 305.5) / 20 = 112

GreatAxe twitch swing rate = 100 per minute

100 x 112 /60 = 186.7 dps

Offhand attacks occur on 1/3 swings and do about 50% damage
1/3 * 50% = 17% additional dps from glancing blows
186.7 + 17% = 218.4 dps with glancing blows

--------------------------------------------------------
Tempest Kensai str: 36 +2 rams +8 powersurge = 48
4.5 Club
5 weapon mod
19 str mod
2 weapon spec enh
4 weapon spec feats
2 kensai damage
2 rams might
6 FE damage
8 warchanter
1 prayer
5 power attack
---
58.5 mainhand
48.5 offhand (-10 for str)

Effects:
7 holy
3.5 acid
2.5 slicing
---
13

Total mainhand: 71.5
Total offhand 61.5


Mainhand Crit damage:
117 (58.5 x2)
13 effects
11 acid burst + acid blast
20 seeker (6 bloodstone +4kensai)
---
161
14 acid blast 20
---
175

Offhand crit damage:
97 (48.5 x2)
13 effects
11 acid burst + acid blast
20 seeker (6 bloodstone +4 kensai)
---
141
14 acid blast 20
---
155

(Mainhand + offhand)
attacks 1:0 damage
attacks 2-16: 71.5 + 61.5 = 133
attacks 19: 175 + 155 = 302
attack 20: 257.5 +227.5 = 330

total hits: 17 x 133 = 2261
total crits: 1 x 302 = 302
Crit on a 20: 1 x330 = 330

average damage (2261 + 302 + 330) /20 = 144.7

2-weapon swing rate = 83 +10 tempest = 93

93 x 144.7 /60 = 224.3 dps


Greataxe 218.4 vs 224 Dual clubs...

[Joab_Watts]

Is it a given that a character can take Tempest PrE AND Kensai Pre? I thought they were exclusive.

[Cold_Stele]

Is it a given that a character can take Tempest PrE AND Kensai Pre? I thought they were exclusive.

Nope you can take a ftr and ranger pre but not two ftr pre's.

[Monkey_Archer]

Is it a given that a character can take Tempest PrE AND Kensai Pre? I thought they were exclusive.

I suppose this isnt for sure... but you can make an arcane archer/acrobat.... or a tempest warchanter... unless they change this, tempest kensai will also be possible.

[Joab_Watts]

Thanks. Good to know.

[BlackSteel]

the THF could also grab 5 ranger lvls for Rams might and FE damage

[Monkey_Archer]

the THF could also grab 5 ranger lvls for Rams might and FE damage

or take 6 barb for rages and FB 1, or take 6 pali for smites and KotC1...

hmm... even 8 lvls of sorc to drop a firewall before melee would probably be more dps..

The point im trying to make is that the "classic" greatsword fighter has no hope of being a viable build option...

THF is weak compared to TWF....
Greatswords are weak compared to Greataxes...
Fighters in general are weak compared to barbs for THF...
And, Kensai 3 is weak compared to other lvl 6 PrEs...

To sum it up... weak + weak + weak + weak = pointless

FB has Frenzy tier 1, and Death Frenzy tier 3...
Defender of Siberys and stalwart defender have stances for each tier...

I see no reason why Kensai shouldnt have a "greater powersurge" for tier 3 as well...

Many people, including myself, have considered +1 crit multiplier

[BlackSteel]

then why not compare identical fighting styles to show the difference. 12/6 fighter/ranger vs 18 fighter both twf. The approach is a silly way to show that kensai 3 needs help. The DPS of THF improves with a ranger splash as well, even without using the tempest speed increase. Tier 3 kensai is still a strong enhancement. But for a 6 level investment nothing beats the damage gained by the combination of 5 FE damage, Rams might, 2 fighting style feats, and 10% attack speed.

Frankly tier 3 kensai is = tier 1 tempest. Where the disparity lies is with what else is gained over six levels. 12-18 fighter is just a few feats, of which very little is worth a ***. The last tier of weapon spec is about the only thing I can think of. That still puts the ranger 1-6 up 5 damage and 2 str. More feats and more enhancements would address this, not making kensai 3 'super bad'

[Monkey_Archer]

then why not compare identical fighting styles to show the difference. 12/6 fighter/ranger vs 18 fighter both twf. The approach is a silly way to show that kensai 3 needs help. The DPS of THF improves with a ranger splash as well, even without using the tempest speed increase. Tier 3 kensai is still a strong enhancement. But for a 6 level investment nothing beats the damage gained by the combination of 5 FE damage, Rams might, 2 fighting style feats, and 10% attack speed.

Frankly tier 3 kensai is = tier 1 tempest. Where the disparity lies is with what else is gained over six levels. 12-18 fighter is just a few feats, of which very little is worth a ***. The last tier of weapon spec is about the only thing I can think of. That still puts the ranger 1-6 up 5 damage and 2 str. More feats and more enhancements would address this, not making kensai 3 'super bad'

This wasnt to show that kensai 3 needs help.... rather to show how terrible the classic fighter build has become...

A simple comparison of fighter 2-handed vs barb 2-handed shows barb wins.
Greatsword vs greataxe shows greataxe wins.
TWF vs THF shows TWF wins. (exept maybe unbuffed greataxe vs clubs or something stupid like that)
All this is obvious to some... but alot of players would not know this.

Less obvious is that kensai 3 does not equal tempest 1....
Lets just say that +1 weapon spec damage, +1 intim,diplo, combat DC, Ki stuff etc... is equal to 6 FE damage, rams might, +2ac, better saves, and all the other advantages of ranger multiclassing..

We are left with 10% attack speed vs +1 crit range.

For a x2 crit weapon like a greatsword normally in 20 swings you get 15 hits + 4x2 crits
for approx 15 + (4x2 crits) = 23 hit equivalent
Greataxe 17 hits + (2x3 crits) = 23 hit equivalent
Picks 17 hits + (2x4 crits) = 25 hit equivalent

Kensai 3 crit range gives:
Greatsword 14 hits + (5x2 crits) = 24 hit equivalent
Greataxe 16 hits + (3x3 crits) = 25 hit equivalent
pick 16 hits + (3x4 crits) = 28 hit equivalent

+1 crit range Greatswords do approximatly 24/23 = 1.043 as much as a non crit range greatsword (or 4.3% more dps)
Greataxe: 25/23 = 1.087 (8.7% more dps)
picks: 28/25 = 1.12 (12% more dps)

Kensai crit range gives approximately 4.3-12% more dps against targets vulnerable to crits depending on weapon choice...
Tempest gives 10% more damage vs anything...

[Emili]

We are left with 10% attack speed vs +1 crit range.
Tempest gives 10% more damage vs anything...

I had mentioned this as Tempest was coming out... when they were introducing tempest for the ranger love. I had stated in those threads that the typical DnD tempest was a fighter due to the feat heaviness of it many fighters afforded tempest more easily then the ranger class thus you seen more tempest fighters in DnD. However when I learned of the 10% speed ... I said you wish to take an already quick killer (meaning the twf chain) and add another 10% dps towards it, where did that leave the fighters and pallys - who were actually starting to feel the pinch from twf barbs and crit rage... I thought ok, so rangers get love to push past the barb a little... they had better do something nice for fighter later.

[BlackSteel]

This wasnt to show that kensai 3 needs help.... rather to show how terrible the classic fighter build has become...

the original post had me presuming that this was a commentary on kensai specifically. Your own numbers show 4-12% gain with tier 3; which is plenty

yes ranger splash does more damage, this isnt the fault of the fighter pre tho. It's already giving plenty of benefit. One enhancement line should not be expected to match Rams, FE, and Tempest. What the fighter needs is more options via feats or enhancements to compete with Rams and FE damage. Particularly more options above lvl 14, as just going to 12 fighter you've already grabbed two of your weapon specializations. Heck, if the weapon spec enhancements didnt start till after 12, then that would be 4 damage unattainable with splashing ranger, and offsetting the huge gains of the multiclass. Double each tier to 2 damage, lvls 14/16/18/20. And you have some really nice gains for taking lots of fighter.

[Monkey_Archer]

I had mentioned this as Tempest was coming out... when they were introducing tempest for the ranger love. I had stated in those threads that the typical DnD tempest was a fighter due to the feat heaviness of it many fighters afforded tempest more easily then the ranger class thus you seen more tempest fighters in DnD. However when I learned of the 10% speed ... I said you wish to take an already quick killer (meaning the twf chain) and add another 10% dps towards it, where did that leave the fighters and pallys - who were actually starting to feel the pinch from twf barbs and crit rage... I thought ok, so rangers get love to push past the barb a little... they had better do something nice for fighter later.

I would rather see 5% attack speed for each tier of tempest... (5,10,15%)
Would be better for all the pure rangers....
Current tempest 1 is THE MOST powerful single PrE tier there is, and no tier 3 of any melee class can beat it...

[Monkey_Archer]

the original post had me presuming that this was a commentary on kensai specifically. Your own numbers show 4-12% gain with tier 3; which is plenty

yes ranger splash does more damage, this isnt the fault of the fighter pre tho. It's already giving plenty of benefit. One enhancement line should not be expected to match Rams, FE, and Tempest. What the fighter needs is more options via feats or enhancements to compete with Rams and FE damage. Particularly more options above lvl 14, as just going to 12 fighter you've already grabbed two of your weapon specializations. Heck, if the weapon spec enhancements didnt start till after 12, then that would be 4 damage unattainable with splashing ranger, and offsetting the huge gains of the multiclass. Double each tier to 2 damage, lvls 14/16/18/20. And you have some really nice gains for taking lots of fighter.

12% gain is only for picks, and you would lose more then 4% by not going khopesh anyway...
So at most a Kensai can only gain about 8% dps from tier 3, only for your chosen weapon, and only on monsters vulnerable to crits.
Which isnt even close to 10% tempest for any weapon (which also helps vorpal rates, etc..)

The only thing currently that Fighters get above lvl 14 to compare with FE damage, rams, etc... is +1 weapon spec damage and Kensai 3...

More useful feats would be good, but the tempest fighter still has plenty of feats to take as well.

Of course, we dont know what enhancements (if any) fighters will get above lvl 16...
4 tiers of weapon spec is a good idea... would be nice if the bonuses doubled for 2-handed weapons as well...

[hu-flung-pu]

I don't get it. Why are you comparing apples to oranges?

A shotgun does more damage to an area then an assault rifle.

An assault rifle does more damage to a single target. Different weapons for different needs.

Two handed fighting is getting a significant boost in magical effects applied through splash damage.

This reveals more of the short comings of the fighter class then weapon choices.

[Aeneas]

I don't get it. .....

This reveals more of the short comings of the fighter class then weapon choices.

I think getting that is enough. Kensai doesn't need help, fighter in general does.