New to the game, have a couple questions

[can'tthinkofone]

So I just started up yesterday and I'm having a blast so far. I rolled a warrior because I really like to tank, had 2 different tanks in WoW (paladin, warrior) that I raided with pre latest expansion.

Anyhow, are fighters "The" tank?

How does the tanking mechanic work here?

I'm assuming that the "taunt" is the intimidate skill, right?

Builds are kind of confusing for me right now, I'm working off of the dwarven footman build from the sticky in the noob forum, is that a good tank build?

I played AD&D about 25 years ago, first edition style, bought the 3rd edition rules (which I think ddo is basted on?) but never played.

Any help or input would be appreciated.

[BlackSteel]

first of all, welcome to the game

yes fighters can be a 'tank' altho technically ALOT of the classes can be as well. Unlike most MMO's the taunt/intimidate skill is not required, simply b/c the game is more action oriented. Most monsters die too fast to bother with AND the person that does the most damage will be the person with the monster in the face.

Not to say the skill doesnt have its uses, but its not regularly needed. A tank in DDO can either have high AC or high HP or both. Fortification and saves are just as important as well.

I'm not familiar with the footman build, so maybe someone else can elaborate more.

Just a heads up tho, an AC tank build requires alot of gear and twinking to be effective. Unfortunately to have great AC in this game requires forknowledge of the game, and what items you can attain. Mithral tower shields and full plate as you level, swapping to robes in the higher levels if you have enough dex. particular named items, etc. And twinking gear can get expensive.

Another tank build could be a barbarian, its less solo friendly at the start b/c you'll have no AC to speak of, but you'll kill everything in 1-2 hits. The build can also be expensive due to potion consumption.

A battlemage would allow you to tank and heal (sorceror or wizard with high STR, warforge race) or a cleric with moderate stats.

[minivanman]

Intimidate is a nice skill. A good intimidater really does make life easier for the rest of the party. Is it essential? No. Is it really useful at times? Absolutely.

Skill points are the hardest to distribute because you can't fix mistakes. So, you need to figure out if you're going to buy into intimidate early. If not, that's fine. There are plenty of good warrior types that don't use it.

Straight fighters allow a lot of freedom with the large number of feats they get. It's a really good start to figure out what's important to you. You can always respec a feat later if you don't like it, or use it. Unfortunately, you can't do that will skills.

Most importantly, enjoy. This game is incredible when it comes to character development and builds. There are almost an infinite amount of ways to be build a viable character.

It really comes down to playstyle though. Figure that out, and the rest will fall in place.

Most importantly, this isn't WoW. It's a whole different animal. So, welcome to DDO.

[Aganazer]

Most importantly, this isn't WoW. It's a whole different animal.

That's an understatement! For every rule there are three exceptions. And for every rule that you know about there are three more that you haven't learned yet.

About Tanks, DDO is kinda weird. There are tons of classes and combo's that can tank, but only one class that can heal really well and only one class that can lockpick and disable device.

I'll try to sum up a few things about mitigating damage that I have learned in the month I've been playing. First, there are lots of defensive stats to keep in mind.

-AC - This is for purely physical damage like slashing, bludgeoning, and piercing.

-Fortitude - Helps against some spells and things like poison.
-Reflex - Dodging traps, dodging some spells like fireball
-Will - Helps against spells that effect your mind like holds, charms, etc.

There are also a few popular class specific feats that are popular in tanks...

-Evasion - Allows your reflex saves to avoid 100% (rather than 50%) of the damage on spells saves. Rogues, Monks, and Rangers get this.
-Divine Grace - Adds your charisma bonus to all your fort, reflex, and will saves. Paladins get this.

There are also a handful of other feats that are available to all classes. What fighters get is a whole lot of generic feats. This makes them relatively versatile since feats can be respeced. A fighter is somewhat limited in their potential reflex and will saves, but makes a great tank otherwise.

Shields are also quite a bit different than other MMOG's. Normally a shield won't add anything other than some AC. If you manually block though, you get a fair amount of damage reduction. Some people simply don't like to manually block and I don't think anything in the game really requires it. Shields aren't very popular right now since they are somewhat limited, but it looks like they will be a whole lot better in mod 9 with the addition of some new enhancement lines.

I started with a 'footman' character. Its greatest limitation is saves and that it doesn't have a great intimidate (taunt). You'll often see a tank referred to as an 'intimitank'. Intimidate uses charisma as its base attribute and dwarves aren't known for being very charismatic. This can be overcome somewhat by putting points into intimidate and taking intimidate enhancements. But it will will be difficult for the 'footman' to get a worthwhile intimidate.

If I were you I'd do a search on post titles that include the word 'intimitank' to see what is out there.

[sephiroth1084]

Welcome to the game!

In DDO, tanking can take a few different forms. You can be a high-AC heavily armored tank (shield and full-plate or breastplate usually), a high-AC Dex-based tank (very high Dex, wearing robes, and maybe also with a monk splash to add Wis to your AC as well), a guy with a ton of HP, and/or someone based around maximizing their damage reduction (DR), which is just ability to ignore some amount of incoming physical (non-spell) damage.

Then, coupled with these build types, are the strategies employed to hold aggro: DPS or Intimidate.The first will more consistently hold a single target's aggro, given enough time/headstart on other people hurting it, so that, even if you are knocked down or otherwise unable to affect the target, it will remain aggro'ed on you for longer, while intimidate can grab multiple creatures, and can pull aggro off of someone more quickly and readily than the DPSer.

Sword and board (S&B) tends to require a lot of specific gear, has lower DPS than some other styles, and has an AC that caps out a little lower than the Dex-based tank, but you also have the option of shield blocking, which provides more DR than anyone but DR-specc'ed tanks will have.This style tends to average more HP than the Dex-based folks, and has an easier time acquiring weapons usually (since the Dex-based folks go TWF). This works best with Intimidate. This kind of character tends to be some combination of fighter and/or paladin.

The Dex-based tanks usually go with Two-Weapon Fighting, and have a higher DPS than the S&B guys, and higher AC and they have evasion, but they usually have less HP and are more feat-starved. They also do not benefit as much from shield-blocking since A) they will have to switch weapon sets to get a shield out and that takes a little time, and B) they usually are losing AC to gain DR, so they are getting hit more often, but taking less damage per hit, while the S&B tanks are going to be both getting hit less often and for less damage while shield blocking. This tends to work better with DPS than intimidate, mostly just due to Cha being a dump-stat for this kind of character. This kind of tank tends to be some combination of ranger and/or monk.

The HP-tanks are the guys who hit hard, draw aggro, and have enough HP that they don't die too quickly to be healed. They have little or no innate damage mitigation other than trying to kill things before those mosnters can do too much harm. Can be either TWF or use a 2-handed weapon, like a greataxe. These are often barbarians and to a lesser extent fighters.

As for DR-based tanks, I know little about them other than that I am fairly certain that warforged barbarians are the number one choice here.

I'm sure someone else could explain the non-S&B styles than I can, since I play S&B far more than anything else tank-wise. I like it, though will admit that my own flavor preferences (knight in shining armor) influence this bias. I will say that, currently, a Dex-based TWF tank is probably better in most respects than a S&B tank, but only in high-level content, and even there, the difference seems fairly minimal outside of elite raiding. In the early game, if you can make a little money, or join a guild who can help you get set-up, you will probably have higher survivability playing a S&B tank (not to mention that the gear you need early in the game is easier to get for this style, and this kind of build is easier to construct, I think).

Some people may downplay intimidate, but I find that it can do so much that its value cannot be over-estimated. It helps the party rogue get his sneak attack damage, helps the cleric or bard save SP on healing, helps group enemies up for the caster's AoE spells, can catch enemies running by who would otherwise be beating on someone less able to take the punishment you can. It allows you to dictate where a battle is fought: don't like fighting a monster on a slippery waterfall, or ice flensers (who coat the ground in sheets of slippery ice) on a slope? Intimidate and jump over them or move back onto level ground, dragging them along with you. Intimidate can also salvage a bad situation, as you can grab the aggro of everything around instantly, and hold it while shield blocking (keeping yourself alive), while everyone else regroups. I have saved numerous party wipes with this tactic, as I'm sure other intimidate-equiped tanks have. Just about the only things it doesn't do well is make julianned fries.

[Korvek]

-Evasion - Allows you to make reflex saves on melee attacks. Rogues, Monks, and Rangers get this.

Er, no it doesn't. Evasion allows you to take no damage rather than half damage when successfully making your reflex save against a spell that allows the save for half damage.

[Aganazer]

Er, no it doesn't. Evasion allows you to take no damage rather than half damage when successfully making your reflex save against a spell that allows the save for half damage.

Ahh... Thanks for clearing that up. The feat text was a little misleading. Like I said, I've only been playing for a month now. :P

[sephiroth1084]

Er, no it doesn't. Evasion allows you to take no damage rather than half damage when successfully making your reflex save against a spell or effect (such as most traps and some class abilities/feats) that allows the save for half damage.

Correction in red.

Generally speaking, most instantaneous AoE effects allow for a save (Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Cone of Cold), while persistent AoE effects generally do not (any of the Fog spells for example). Also, anything that doesn't use an attack roll but that is a physical attack that relies upon surprise tends to be against a Reflex save: spike traps (which, under the 3.5 rules are supposed to be using an attack roll), scything blades, falling rocks, explosions, etc...

Effects that cause death, poison, disease, or similarly physical ailments, usually call for a Fortitude save.

Effects that influence your actions or mind, call for a Will save. These include: charms, domination, commands, fear, compulsions (DANCE!), etc...

[can'tthinkofone]

its complicated stuff compared to most games. Gives me some to think on.

Thanks

[sephiroth1084]

its complicated stuff compared to most games. Gives me some to think on.

Thanks

I tried playing Warcraft Online for about 5 minutes before swearing that I'd never touch it, or any similar MMO again. I was totally turned off by the complete lack of character customization (something I've always liked in both D&D 3.5 and DDO), and the stand still and press a button combat.

[Malakimon]

like one of the posters said.

DDO and WoW two very diffrent games, in this game whoever deals the most damage is usually the one with mobs on em.

rogues are not the TOP DPS melee class like in WoW, or used to be in WoW i've been out of the loop for a bit on WoW.

I played for 4 years.

In this game Casters are extra super squishy, they cant take hits,

Best thing to do to have a caster in this game is roll a Cleric and Sub class caster that way u can lvl as a caster who wears plate. and is able to deal with hits.

but again warriors in this game are nothing like in wow, in WoW your DPS spec was Fury, in this game you can tank as hard as you hit.

but sadly the tank in this game is still going to outdamage alot of ppl, except i would say for rangers.

clr, are excellent at solo casue they can self heal and if you spec em right deal fairly decent Melee damage.

or you could take a fighter and multiclass as a cleric so you can be the WoW version of a Pally, a Tank that can DPS and Heal itself.

in this game ur not gona solo to much.


i am getting to the point now where i need to group so i don perish in battle on a common basis, or if i want to do the really cool quests.

in WoW you can solo to lvl 80..and group for gear.
in here not getting good gear without heading into a dungon, and not getting the best gear unless you group and go in on eleit.

well i will let the vets tell u more i have only been playing 15 days. b4 this i was on guildwars, and b4 that tabual rasa, and b4 that city of heros city of villians, and b4 that wow..i tried wrath of the lich king..same as TBC expansion. work to lvl then raid for gear. and then farm up gold start new toon and do it all over.


WoW got to be a bit to childish for me i wanted somthing more.

looking forward to Star Wars: The old Republic, i enojoyed SWG till they really started messing it up.

only downside to this game is its instanced, no real free roam like in wow. when you go explloring outside citys or other areas, if your not with a group you not going to see anyone, its instanced all over the place. unless in cities.

i kinda like seeing other ppl out and about the world. so i dont fill so alone.

[muffinlad]

i kinda like seeing other ppl out and about the world. so i dont fill so alone.

What are you trying to fill by yourself? (j/k)

I agree about the outside areas. DDO should have a few where 100's can wander and fight enemies (or perhaps....60....)

That is missing from this game, unlike almost any other (COH, WOW, etc.)

muffinvoyager

[Slink]

Everyone here is giving you good advice with one exception. Intimidate is the most under-used skill in the game. Why, I have no idea whatsoever. I have a lvl 16 halfling pure fighter that took intimidate as an afterthought when I realized the AC potential. Although halflings have a size issue in relationship to intimidate checks vs. larger foes and although I didnt start puttin points into intimidate until lvl 3, I still get comments from ppl via tells about the skill. I dont much care how hard the barbarian is hitting, a good intimidate will pull them off agro. A good AC, sturdy tower shield can make a tremendous difference in the approach to this game.

I have had a few clerics in my days and in particular in some quests, it can be expensive on the mana pool (shroud part 2 where everything is dragged to south central for example). When playing a intimitank role, turtling up(shield blocking and intimidating) can make such a difference in cost to the party as a whole. The downside to making this kind of fighter class is dont expect to kill everything. Your job will be to absorb as much of the punishment from large mobs while the rest kill.

This playstyle will earn you love from both the clerics and the rogues in the party. I am not familiar with WOW or its mechanics, nor will I ever be. So I cant really equate it into a way you might understand better. Perhaps this info will help make a decision on direction. For a timetested and true intimitank build, check the forums here and look for riot's intimitank build (under the fighter class discussion). That'll give you the basics. He was the original intimitank and the build is still solid from what i can see. Also most info there pertains to a 28 point build, which is what you will have if youre new to the game.

Welcome to DDO and good luck,

S.

[Moonblood]

If you asked me.. Yes fighters are "The Tanks" ... many will argu that the barbarian blah blah blah blah blah... but ask any well built dps hp fighter how many barbarians he's had in his back pack as he leveled and he'll tell you House K should give'm another slot for that specific reason.

My advice is go with a pre fabricated build until you learn the game and how to build. Ask a lot of questions, there's really good people in this game that will help you along the way. Compose a friends list out of those who are helpful and make your way with relative ease. Stay away from experimental multiclassing, there's plenty of info here for you to access...

Good Luck and Happy Hunting

[Arianrhod]

In this game Casters are extra super squishy, they cant take hits,

Best thing to do to have a caster in this game is roll a Cleric and Sub class caster that way u can lvl as a caster who wears plate. and is able to deal with hits.

Huh? Maybe I read this wrong, but sounds like you're saying make a cleric then take wizard or sorceror levels and wear plate mail. If so, DON'T! Armor causes arcane spell failure for the "squishy" casters; taking a cleric level gives you proficiency, but doesn't do anything for the spell failure. Any wizard or sorceror wearing plate mail would find their spells failing most of the time, whether they had a cleric level or not.

To the OP's original point - plenty of good advice has laready been given, but I'd like to emphasize a key difference between DDO & WoW as far as tanking goes -
In DDO, there is only the one taunt, and it's short range and limited in effectiveness (many common creatures are immune, not just bosses). Aggro is determined overwhelmingly by DPS except in the most dedicated of groups who work with "intimitanks" regularly. This means the tank's job is usually to out-DPS the rest of the group (and have a lot of hit points, as well as some ability to avoid damage - high AC, high saves, evasion, etc.). The aggro-dumping skills (bluff, diplomacy) are as weak as the taunt (intimidate), so many "squishy" characters learn other ways to deal with aggro, such as waiting to attack, or running and jumping around like maniacs. It's something a tank should be prepared to expect

[sephiroth1084]

The aggro-dumping skills (bluff, diplomacy) are as weak as the taunt (intimidate)

WHAT?! Intimidate, weak? I cannot believe someone still has this misconception after the proliferation on the boards (and slowly, but increasingly in the game) of intimidate love.

As Slink said a few posts ago, intimidate is one of the strongest skills/abilities in the game: it saves clerics mana (less healing), bunches monsters up for the casters' AoE spells, helps your rogue friend get sneak attack, protects the squishier party members, and can be used to position your enemies where YOU want them.

If you want to play a character who can take hits (by being able to ignore them with a high AC or DR), there is no better addition to such a build than intimidate.

[Arianrhod]

WHAT?! Intimidate, weak? I cannot believe someone still has this misconception after the proliferation on the boards (and slowly, but increasingly in the game) of intimidate love.

As Slink said a few posts ago, intimidate is one of the strongest skills/abilities in the game: it saves clerics mana (less healing), bunches monsters up for the casters' AoE spells, helps your rogue friend get sneak attack, protects the squishier party members, and can be used to position your enemies where YOU want them.

If you want to play a character who can take hits (by being able to ignore them with a high AC or DR), there is no better addition to such a build than intimidate.

Sorry, I meant it was weak compared to taunts in "traditional" MMOs like WoW (which I think was where the OP was coming from). Tanks in those games have not just one but a whole range of taunts, and they work on everything (or almost everything - not sure if there are special cases where something is immune). None of this "the spider cannot be influenced" or whatever

Yes, intimitanks can be great characters, and groups that run with them can do great things. But, unlike a game like WoW, there are other ways to play than relying on a tank to hold aggro, a healer to heal, etc. There are many creatures in this game that are immune to intimidate (and most CC as well), due to being classified as "mindless", and players have to know how to deal with those situations. There are also plenty of players who haven't had the benefit of a good intimitank most of the time, and so have developed playstyles that don't mesh well with one. Unlike WoW, that's not necessarily a sign of a bad player (someone who pulls aggro off the tank), just a different playstyle.

[Aranticus]

check my thread out

[sephiroth1084]

Sorry, I meant it was weak compared to taunts in "traditional" MMOs like WoW .

Ok! Phew! Hehe.

Well, the good thing is that, after undead become intelligent (around lvl 8) the majority of stuff that cannot be intimidated aren't much of a threat (animals and vermin mostly).

[unionyes]

Never played WoW, so not sure what a taunt is.

Unless it is along the lines of Grail, as in, 'I waggle my private parts at your Auntie, you small minded wiper of other people's bottoms'.