Why do people hate battle clerics?

[Gol]

cause as has been said earlier in the thread, "bcs" seem to think that ... one level of fighter makes them equal to a fighter in bab.

Two Words: Divine Power

[CSFurious]

no bashing of battle clerics who know their role

you explained in another post in this thread the problems that your bc has with dps at end-game, i.e., is is about 40 to 50% less than that of other dps builds/classes

as to support, i think all classes support each other

I dont knw why i still read ur posts. Support. Right. As in support dps or just support in general there to follow ur rgr and rog around?

[Thame]

no bashing of battle clerics who know their role

you explained in another post in this thread the problems that your bc has with dps at end-game, i.e., is is about 40 to 50% less than that of other dps builds/classes

as to support, i think all classes support each other

Know their role? Did you decide what that role is? Who are you to point out class roles anyway?
End game battle clerics DPS can be just as high as any other class if built properly I would say more close to 90-100% but then you would be putting your foot in your mouth if you agreed right?. It again depends on what the person wants out of their battle cleric.

Someone on here posted you cant have an effective battle cleric who is a 2 weapon melee. I beg to differ on that. I have made a battle cleric who uses dual puncturers/dps and gets numerous compliments. Even from those that dont like battle clerics. He can solo the pit fiend with minimal or no help with healing, so this comment of DPS/melee clerics cant hang with other melee classes is complete BS.

[arianya]

ok looking at the responses, you could technically consider me a battle cleric. HOWEVER, like i said before, the so called battle clerics i have dealt with have let our party to believe that they were a straight cleric * as we had at least 3 melee players* and then when asked after the first skirmish, why they werent healing, they told us * i am a battlecleric. i dont heal ANYONE else but me and i dont DV.

now my cleric does melee, i do cast offensively, but my main goal is to make sure the party stays alive. a cleric thats knows the priorities of his or her class is an asset to the party. clerics are especially useful in areas like deleras and the friars niece and the orchard, ya know places where UNDEAD tend to dwell. if your cleric wont heal you, then why should they waste their mana on killing undead?

like i said in my original post, i dont dislike all battleclerics. only the ones i have had personal experience playing with. your best bet, if you want more invites, leave the battle off your cleric until the situation demands that you show what melee damage you are capable of.

[Nick_RC]

Know their role? Did you decide what that role is? Who are you to point out class roles anyway?
End game battle clerics DPS can be just as high as any other class if built properly I would say more close to 90-100% but then you would be putting your foot in your mouth if you agreed right?. It again depends on what the person wants out of their battle cleric.

Someone on here posted you cant have an effective battle cleric who is a 2 weapon melee. I beg to differ on that. I have made a battle cleric who uses dual puncturers/dps and gets numerous compliments. Even from those that dont like battle clerics. He can solo the pit fiend with minimal or no help with healing, so this comment of DPS/melee clerics cant hang with other melee classes is complete BS.

Sounds like a good build tharne - I haev gone over numbers may times (not that numbers are my spec.) but have not found any combination that puts them remotely close in melee damage to a tyical dps focused pali/barb/fighter whilst still maintaining a good spell dc.

Care to post it?

N

[Impaqt]

Know their role? Did you decide what that role is? Who are you to point out class roles anyway?
End game battle clerics DPS can be just as high as any other class if built properly I would say more close to 90-100% but then you would be putting your foot in your mouth if you agreed right?. It again depends on what the person wants out of their battle cleric.

Gimme a Break.... I love my melee Clerics, but I'm not delusional enough to think that I come anywhere near the damage a Barb or Ranger puts out.... WHen ya Design a Battle cleric that can gain +14 Extra Str from a Rage or get +10 Extra base damage against Fav enemies, Please post it.

Someone on here posted you cant have an effective battle cleric who is a 2 weapon melee. I beg to differ on that. I have made a battle cleric who uses dual puncturers/dps and gets numerous compliments. Even from those that dont like battle clerics. He can solo the pit fiend with minimal or no help with healing, so this comment of DPS/melee clerics cant hang with other melee classes is complete BS.

Did anyone else spit soda on their Keyboard afer reading that line?

[CSFurious]

any tempest ranger, rogue or barbarian dual-wielding puncturers will crush your battle-cleric in any dps calculation, please get a clue

just because you do it does not make it the best

there is a reason that your server is over-populated with str-based dwarven tempest rangers & now ranger/monk hybrids

if you build was so groovy, i am sure that you would find plenty of pooftas running around with one

Know their role? Did you decide what that role is? Who are you to point out class roles anyway?
End game battle clerics DPS can be just as high as any other class if built properly I would say more close to 90-100% but then you would be putting your foot in your mouth if you agreed right?. It again depends on what the person wants out of their battle cleric.

Someone on here posted you cant have an effective battle cleric who is a 2 weapon melee. I beg to differ on that. I have made a battle cleric who uses dual puncturers/dps and gets numerous compliments. Even from those that dont like battle clerics. He can solo the pit fiend with minimal or no help with healing, so this comment of DPS/melee clerics cant hang with other melee classes is complete BS.

[arianya]

ok heres my final word on the matter. if you call yourself a BATTLECLERIC, fine. i dont care. AS long as you dont act like the hind end of a donkey. SO FAR... the only toons i have met who use the term BATTLECLERIC were PUTZES.
so i apologize for hating on battleclerics in general. if i run with a decent BC, then i will tend to his or her wounds just like i would anyone else.

[gHzSWB]

I think the stigma is a case of selfishness, all Clerics can help others but too often battle clerics only help themselves. That ticks folks off not because it is the responsibility of a particular person to help another but it is the cleric role in the party to assist healing the party. If most battle clerics said straight up I don't heal others then people would think of them as a melee only and not get bent out of shape but often they take advantage of the need people have for a healer to get a slot in a group only to then not take on the role most people fairly expect they would. In the end, players should build and play as they see fit (i.e. my new Wizzy is not a BUF machine and while I haste and buf when appropriate in quests I will not blow a big chunk of my limited mana passing out bufs to everyone at the entrance) but if you are not going to be doing something that most people expect of your class then let them know before you start.

As an example of the annoyance of 'battle clerics' I was doing a quest with a battle cleric the other night, all in all a capable fighting build from what I saw, but the guy was just playing totally selfishly. We had another healing cleric in the group and come a particular part where resists are absolutely necessary he refused to give resists to even some players saying he had no SP to do so not even to save the SP of others who need theirs for group support stuff. The guy was obviously full of it because if he doesn't have enough SP to hand out even a few fire resists then how can he have enough to really be self sufficient? That is the kind of thing that gives battle clerics a bad name, being able to do support but to often refusing to do so.

[Emili]

Sounds like a good build tharne - I haev gone over numbers may times (not that numbers are my spec.) but have not found any combination that puts them remotely close in melee damage to a tyical dps focused pali/barb/fighter whilst still maintaining a good spell dc.

Care to post it?

N

A dual weilding cleric may work ok, the feats would seem a tad tight twf, itwf, gtwf, IC pierce - 4 of 7 feats at 20 (finesse if dex based?) you'd probably want Power attack too like the rest of the melee... Seems starved on the casting end you'd wish for extend, quicken maybe because toe to toe as concentration failure occur often in elite even maxed concentration it sucks - is bound to happen... Heighten and max or empower are really important too casting clerics... Like I said B/C is a tough build to make work. The typical heal-bot or even casting spec cleric spams mclw and lcmw as main healing spells and typically toss a heal for 1200+ crits using very little mana ... that's a lot in ap and feat expense for that, but they're a usually more mana efficient and typically sport more sp. Side by side the buffed B/C is on par of the low end full BaB classes on average, you buff up the full bab classes and they're turning on PA doing +30-40 damage on top of weapon and still around 40+ to hit.... and the casting clerics damage,cc and healing spells tend to be more potent on average then a B/C ever sees. Like I said would have to be a pretty good round build to bring to group.

[Gol]

Sounds like a good build tharne - I haev gone over numbers may times (not that numbers are my spec.) but have not found any combination that puts them remotely close in melee damage to a tyical dps focused pali/barb/fighter whilst still maintaining a good spell dc.

Care to post it?

N

The DPS difference is solely in the "extras". For Rangers, this means Favored Enemy (and tempest if applicable). For Barbarians, it's the Str bump from Raging. For Paladins, it's the Smite Evils. For Fighters, it's ... ok, well, they don't get any damage bumps yet other than the native Strength enhancements, though Kensai is coming but even that's only a boost.

The biggest kicker is that Clerics don't get any DPS extras other than Divine Favor. It's +3 attack/damage that other classes don't get and equates to +6 Strength. So that 26 Str Battle cleric hits like a 32 Str anything else. Whoopty do.

So can a Battle Cleric ever keep up with a Ranger or Barbarian? Of course not. Can it keep up with a Fighter or Paladin? For now, yes. And if the DPS output was the same, who wouldn't prefer to have the backup healer for when "it" hits the fan?

The Battle Cleric has 1 distinct advantage over the Fighter and Paladin, though. A Monk 2 splash has significantly higher payout for the Cleric. Assuming the Cleric is already sporting 36ish Wisdom, he gets Evasion at virtually no AC loss (assuming both are in TWF mode - let's not pretend S&B has any DPS to speak of). Put him in a set of Icy Raiments and he comes out ahead in AC. A Fighter stands to gain more by splashing Rog 2, but ultimately loses 4-7 AC by doing so. Presumably, the Paladin will have a better Wisdom than the Fighter, but nothing close to that of a Cleric - he's still losing 4-7 AC to the Cleric.

Nick, I'm currently working on a TWF Cleric with Monk splash, so we'll see how it goes. I haven't splashed Monk yet and I need to run the math on Monk 2 vs Fighter 2. I hit 11.2 over the weekend and hoping to hit at least 12 tonight and cap out before mod 9.

[Nick_RC]

no bashing of battle clerics who know their role

you explained in another post in this thread the problems that your bc has with dps at end-game, i.e., is is about 40 to 50% less than that of other dps builds/classes

as to support, i think all classes support each other

Ok i think i may have been a little harsh this explains it.

Re: Roll - in regular (not raid and other certain specific scenarios) questing my ROLE on D@mnit is death and slaughter. If I do my job properly the odd spot heal here and then and maybe a few moderates is most of the work done. U play on argo - last fight kobold is too easy with an real cleric, dont beleive me il show you sometime.

Did anyone else spit soda on their Keyboard afer reading that line?

Shhh ul scare him off I definately want to see this It just aint happening without severly gimping other abilities. U knw it, I knw it and if he posts something tells me he'll knw it.

any tempest ranger, rogue or barbarian dual-wielding puncturers will crush your battle-cleric in any dps calculation, please get a clue

W/p aint dps its stat damage. Theres a dps element in there but is so weak compared to pure dps its not comparable. Any muppet can stat damage. DPS is an artform. And just so you know when the odd occasion calls for it (prey/sorjek) dual wield keen punct rap and a wounder kukri. U dont need the 2wf feat to dual wield em. U might have less attacks but keep mvin and you wont notic a thing. Stat damage is NOT what im talking about. And just so you knw a tempest would be 10% faster than a melee only g2wf cleric and a rog and noncritrage bar would be at exactly the same rate.

ok heres my final word on the matter. if you call yourself a BATTLECLERIC, fine. i dont care. AS long as you dont act like the hind end of a donkey. SO FAR... the only toons i have met who use the term BATTLECLERIC were PUTZES.
so i apologize for hating on battleclerics in general. if i run with a decent BC, then i will tend to his or her wounds just like i would anyone else.

Dont worry didnt take it personally. Im old school (ie when lvl cap was 10 and people only thought clerics were dv bots) and still call myself a BC even tho what I really mean (from what i read of the terminology here) is Cleric.

I dont really pug...sadly i truly enjoy puging... but that aside i get *****ed at by some people because i let them die. After playing an offensive cleric for several years now in some incarnation or other you just learn to prioritise. For example the ranger plinkng away with a bow in last fight of kobolds fails a couple of saves in a row and dies. Im running the entire room sans kobold through BB in the hallway taking a pounding but dealing MASSIVE fast damage. He gets upset cos he died. So be it. In that instance i was more important than him. Either the other people accept that or they dont. Just make sure you do the right thing at the right time and stick to ur guns

[krud]

I have run several clerics up to 16, from the nanny-bot, the BC, the caster, the necro, and even the turning cleric. I will say that 85% of the quests, a BC is quite capable of being the only cleric in the grp. I have been running alot of groups lately with no cleric at all... and I PickUp 100% of the time. Clerics have been tough to find lately. But there are those quests that require someone to play a heal-bot. Can your BC play healbot if needed? Times like that, you wish that you could just turn your icon to that of a fighter (with an astrick for the restore spell).

I have done the same. You learned all the aspects of playing a cleric in doing so. Any one who has done that can make a really good battle cleric. Quite a few have not learned, and it seems quite often that the ones that did not learn end up with a very bad"battle" cleric, or a heal bot (which to others is not always a bad thing). One good thing is really bad battle clerics usually don't make it through to end game, or at least with a reputation intact. It is usually the lower level groups that are made to suffer the torments of bad battle clerics.

[Nick_RC]

The DPS difference is solely in the "extras". For Rangers, this means Favored Enemy (and tempest if applicable). For Barbarians, it's the Str bump from Raging. For Paladins, it's the Smite Evils. For Fighters, it's ... ok, well, they don't get any damage bumps yet other than the native Strength enhancements, though Kensai is coming but even that's only a boost.

Those 'extras' would account for about 40% dps. Dont forget Divine sacrifice and crit rage/viscious. Then take into consideration most will run 2 handed because the stat thread is very very tough for 2wf whilst maintaining peak wisdom. My 50-60% of dps took into account healing rebuffing etc in general play - maybe 70%ish of the top dps classes? And thats going down down down next mod. and thats for those who knw how to do it...


The biggest kicker is that Clerics don't get any DPS extras other than Divine Favor. It's +3 attack/damage that other classes don't get and equates to +6 Strength. So that 26 Str Battle cleric hits like a 32 Str anything else. Whoopty do.

DM for mellee was a bust. And like i said before they dont have any freaken good spells part from DF/DP for mellee.

So can a Battle Cleric ever keep up with a Ranger or Barbarian? Of course not. Can it keep up with a Fighter or Paladin? For now, yes. And if the DPS output was the same, who wouldn't prefer to have the backup healer for when "it" hits the fan?

Definately dont agree on the paladin. Sry bud but the whole reason i leveld moon was to check it out. They put out some fantastic dmg now. 7d6 every 3 seconds for DS, + exatled smites + DM clerics arnt in the same ball park. U should really check out the palis again. Fighters need alot of love but looks like they are getting it next mod...while the cleric gets nada...oh wait lvl 9 spells...that we will need to devote 3 item slots for full potency. However 7 30% haste boosts are nothing to sniff at.

The Battle Cleric has 1 distinct advantage over the Fighter and Paladin, though. A Monk 2 splash has significantly higher payout for the Cleric. Assuming the Cleric is already sporting 36ish Wisdom, he gets Evasion at virtually no AC loss (assuming both are in TWF mode - let's not pretend S&B has any DPS to speak of). Put him in a set of Icy Raiments and he comes out ahead in AC. A Fighter stands to gain more by splashing Rog 2, but ultimately loses 4-7 AC by doing so. Presumably, the Paladin will have a better Wisdom than the Fighter, but nothing close to that of a Cleric - he's still losing 4-7 AC to the Cleric.

I Just cant see the stat allocation working out for you bro. Not sure how ur getting 36 wis on ur dwarf at 16 with G2w and strength to hit...

With the monk splash id be hella tempted to go with handwraps (for non crittables at least) in air stance for the extra too hit. I think DP stacks with the innherent flurry bonus also.

Nick, I'm currently working on a TWF Cleric with Monk splash, so we'll see how it goes. I haven't splashed Monk yet and I need to run the math on Monk 2 vs Fighter 2. I hit 11.2 over the weekend and hoping to hit at least 12 tonight and cap out before mod 9.

Is that the finesse one ur talking about? Id love to see the dps rundown between d@mnit and urs assuming max spell dc. I dont do ac so wel leave it at that

Got a link to the build?

Edit: Hoping for decent prestige lines...

[Impaqt]

Got a link to the build?

Edit: Hoping for decent prestige lines...

Pretty Sure its This one
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=169896

[Thame]

Sounds like a good build tharne - I haev gone over numbers may times (not that numbers are my spec.) but have not found any combination that puts them remotely close in melee damage to a tyical dps focused pali/barb/fighter whilst still maintaining a good spell dc.

Care to post it?

N

Yea NP. He will be capped as of this week so I will post it in the clerics forum Thursday or Friday.

[Thame]

I think the stigma is a case of selfishness, all Clerics can help others but too often battle clerics only help themselves. That ticks folks off not because it is the responsibility of a particular person to help another but it is the cleric role in the party to assist healing the party. If most battle clerics said straight up I don't heal others then people would think of them as a melee only and not get bent out of shape but often they take advantage of the need people have for a healer to get a slot in a group only to then not take on the role most people fairly expect they would. In the end, players should build and play as they see fit (i.e. my new Wizzy is not a BUF machine and while I haste and buf when appropriate in quests I will not blow a big chunk of my limited mana passing out bufs to everyone at the entrance) but if you are not going to be doing something that most people expect of your class then let them know before you start.

As an example of the annoyance of 'battle clerics' I was doing a quest with a battle cleric the other night, all in all a capable fighting build from what I saw, but the guy was just playing totally selfishly. We had another healing cleric in the group and come a particular part where resists are absolutely necessary he refused to give resists to even some players saying he had no SP to do so not even to save the SP of others who need theirs for group support stuff. The guy was obviously full of it because if he doesn't have enough SP to hand out even a few fire resists then how can he have enough to really be self sufficient? That is the kind of thing that gives battle clerics a bad name, being able to do support but to often refusing to do so.

Battle clerics only help themselves? What does a barb, ranger, or fighter do while he kills mobs? He kills then then runs off into more mobs all the while expecting to have someone heal him instead of playing smarter. In all actuallity, the cleric can do the same but keep himself healed using SP. A clerics ROLE is not a healer if its not what it was built to do. A cleric can be created and be a straight fighting build. A battle cleric handing out heals or buffs is purely his choice. yes it would be nice to help with buffing and healing but just because he HAS a cleric symbol does not mean he is REQUIRED to do so.

[Impaqt]

Battle clerics only help themselves? What does a barb, ranger, or fighter do while he kills mobs? He kills then then runs off into more mobs all the while expecting to have someone heal him instead of playing smarter. In all actuallity, the cleric can do the same but keep himself healed using SP. A clerics ROLE is not a healer if its not what it was built to do. A cleric can be created and be a straight fighting build. A battle cleric handing out heals or buffs is purely his choice. yes it would be nice to help with buffing and healing but just because he HAS a cleric symbol does not mean he is REQUIRED to do so.

I'm not REQUIRED to group with him either..... No One is.....

As I said, I'm all for Self Sufficincy, but when a CLERIC chooses to pad his own Kill count ahead of gettin an incapped party member off the ground, they are not worth staying in group with.

[Thame]

I'm not REQUIRED to group with him either..... No One is.....

As I said, I'm all for Self Sufficincy, but when a CLERIC chooses to pad his own Kill count ahead of gettin an incapped party member off the ground, they are not worth staying in group with.

Yes I agree with what your saying. It is about the group when grouping others. A Battle cleric who would not help an incapped character isnt worth **** IMO. My only points are clerics dont have to be healers just because they have the cleric symbol, and they are just as capable of doing the same damage/kills as other melee classes. Perhaps I misunderstood your previous, if thats the case I apologize.

[gHzSWB]

Battle clerics only help themselves? What does a barb, ranger, or fighter do while he kills mobs? He kills then then runs off into more mobs all the while expecting to have someone heal him instead of playing smarter. In all actuallity, the cleric can do the same but keep himself healed using SP. A clerics ROLE is not a healer if its not what it was built to do. A cleric can be created and be a straight fighting build. A battle cleric handing out heals or buffs is purely his choice. yes it would be nice to help with buffing and healing but just because he HAS a cleric symbol does not mean he is REQUIRED to do so.

A cleric of most any type is more suited to healing party members than any other class is save maybe certain bards. So when a cleric, of ANY type is using his SP exclusively to heal and buf himself he is being selfish, even if it is his right to play that way. It isn't about being required to do anything, it is about using your abilities to help the party or using them to help yourself. If a group as multiple people engaged with enemies and people in trouble then the argument that the Cleric saving all his abilities soley for himself because doign so he is so great that it helps the party is pretty lame since others are in trouble and it is not working.

I recall the player in my example asking for haste every two minutes (I was playing my caster), funny how he holds all his abilities to make himself oh so uber but expects others to share their abilities to help him get there. I also recall him not fighting in the fogs I put up or in the firewalls. This BC I ran across was not a weak groupmate, it isn't about that - nor does he represent all BCs. But in answering the OP as to why BCs get a bad name I think this guy is a good example and I think the more generic, if simplified, reason is selfishness.

But, again, play as you want to play - every build is valid if the person playing is having fun. However, not every build or every player is a good groupmate.

Yes I agree with what your saying. It is about the group when grouping others. A Battle cleric who would not help an incapped character isnt worth **** IMO. My only points are clerics dont have to be healers just because they have the cleric symbol, and they are just as capable of doing the same damage/kills as other melee classes. Perhaps I misunderstood your previous, if thats the case I apologize.

I will give you another example of what I am talking about - take my ranger (mostly ranger) and when I go to the Hound in the Sub. I know that to get to the end I am gonna need all my SP to keep bark on myself because of all the dispelling along the way so I could be like a BC and pass on sharing my barksin with folks justifying, perhaps reasonably, that I will certainly need all those SP to keep it on myself. But a the same time, I am not getting to the Hound entrance with heals, without some restores, and without haste and a few bufs - in short, I am not getting to the Hound entrance without the group so withholding all my SP for my own use is just selfish. So I spread it around and use pots when I run out of mana, such is life.

You talk about the BC being capable of doing similar DPS to the barb and other melee classes - i won't argue that as right or wrong. However, whether true or not it is a near certain fact that ANY battle cleric is a far, far, far better healer than any barbarian or fighter so in not using that helping ability in order to have more of those abilities in reserve for the BCs use later in the quest I think that is selfish becuase the BC is witholding something he can do just so he can do something else he prefers wheras the fighters and pure melees are not incapable of taking that role on by choice but by design.