Why do people hate battle clerics?

[Inspire]

I find it interesting that when I'm on a cleric who would pretty much be modeled as a "battle cleric" around a bunch of fleshlings the fleshlings sometimes get skiddish and worried. However, when I am on my arcane who would best be described as a "battle arcane" in a group of mostly Warforged I never hear a complaint or worry.

It is all a perceptual clash for what it means to be a "cleric" between people.

Well said.

[Pyromaniac]

People hate battle clerics because they're too cheap to carry their own healing supplies for topping up between battles. The other problem is there are a lot of low hp characters who need someone to constantly be spamming heals on them. Not that I'm either of the above.

[Hellllboy]

I run a WF Battle Cleric and find him very versitle. He is able to do combat when necessary...He is able to do healing when necessary. When running with 2 clerics in group he ususally takes the role of fighter-otherwise he has no problem being the main healer. I dont subcribe to the idea that if you make a cleric-his only job is to sit back and heal, but do recognize his ability to heal as being greater than any class in the game. I guess it would be a balancing act-to recognize the party needs and play out your role as needed by the group-being that the main goal is completion of quest's.

[seldarin]

And that's not mentioning at all that the battlecleric will be healing the party as a bonus, or if required is competent as a sole healer.

Sorry mate, this is one point i disagree with. 90 percent of alleged BCs dont heal themselves let alone the rest of the party, and that is even when they are solo cleric. Mind you, there are a number of straight clerics out there that seem to struggle with this basic functionality too. I dont expect clerics to just heal, i play one myself, but i do expect them to throw a heal around when needed, thats part of what having all those cure and heal spells is all about. If they werent expected to heal, they wouldnt be given the capacity to do so.

[seldarin]

NOW,..... If a battle cleric were to advise the group up front.... no problem. As long as they are a competent addition to the party I got no issues. That would allow the party, if needed, to get a full time healer or at least a secondary healing type like a bard.

This last part i found kinda funny. You have a cleric in your group who is arguably better at healing than any other class in the game, yet you would need to get possibly a bard into the group as a healer? That right there is why BCs have such a huge stigma. Whilst i dont expect a cleric to just heal, i sure as hell dont expect to have to get someone else into the group to heal, when i have a cleric right there. They have a HUGE selecting of cure spells that are fixed in place, cant be switched out for anything else, so have no excuse not to do some healing when needed.

But like i said, i dont expect them to just heal, heal when needed, do whatever else they want when healing isnt needed.

That being said, was in a group once on my ranger, where he was the healer and that was with a lameass BC in the group. That is where my peeve comes from, rangers are pretty low on the pecking order when it comes to healers, but he did a better job of it than the BC, yet cleric has superior healing capacity.
Same with any class, you always get **** in the barrel

[Mr_Ed7]

Battle Clerics are a myth. All cleircs are built to engage in combat and heal.

That being said I have built a true battle cleric...Half of his levels go to fighter, half of his levels go to cleric. Fun build who backs up the true cleric of the group, fights, heals when needed, and barages the enemies with attack spells, and spells which compromise the enemie's defenses.

[cypan41]

I've liked what I've heard from the battle clerics here. I'm sorry OP, but no, your idea of "if you're a cleric be a cleric" idea (as in healer) Just seems to show why people hate battle clerics.

but the Battle clerics have said why honestly I'd rather have a full group full of B/c's than of regular tanks. They heal, they are self sufficient, they have the same bab as fighters, they can Intimitank as well (see one of Durracks toons.. god I hate givin him props but..)...

And my own toon, which might be classified as a battle cleric, isn't one at all.

Ok. She will be 11 cleric, 2 monk, 7 wizard at end game.

She can solo all but one of the vale quests at lvl 15 on normal, and is just a da*m blast to play. At lvl 20 when she gets firewall... it is gonna be fun. All that and even with the extra 7 lvls of wizard, she'll still have the bab of a 20 fighter. (don't ya wish they'd make Divine power longer than 2 mintues? I'm up for paying for the extra mana if I didn't have to click it so often, but anyhow.. I digress. )

She's great in a party as a melee. She is fine doing the healer thing when she has to. * We're talking shroud and below, who knows what the next update will bring, but with scrolls and a few pots, she made it through a 4 round shroud run as a healer.*succesfully*)

Though she is not a full healer. She is fa nominal solo class character when it's late at night and no one is on.

I have fun with her, and can do things most other types of characters cannot. (ie. my other tank characters, and even my wf/sorc.)

All the missions tend to need a little melee and a little caster.. Battle clerics bring both.

[Gaermain]

I can only speak for my own experiences but here's why I don't like MOST of them....

Because they join groups without telling people they are battle clerics thereby leading people to believe they are primarily filling a healing function. That in turn, gimps a lot of parties that are not self sufficient.

What gimps parties is not the character with the cleric level(s), it's the other party members who cannot complete or contribute equally to a quest unless someone "primarily filling a healing function" is glued to their six.

My $0.02

[seldarin]

What gimps parties is not the character with the cleric level(s), it's the other party members who cannot complete or contribute equally to a quest unless someone "primarily filling a healing function" is glued to their six.

My $0.02

Exactly, cut the umbilical cord, be a little self sufficient and dont spend 2 hours sitting around with and lfm up for a babysitter

[smyter]

I have run several clerics up to 16, from the nanny-bot, the BC, the caster, the necro, and even the turning cleric. I will say that 85% of the quests, a BC is quite capable of being the only cleric in the grp. I have been running alot of groups lately with no cleric at all... and I PickUp 100% of the time. Clerics have been tough to find lately. But there are those quests that require someone to play a heal-bot. Can your BC play healbot if needed? Times like that, you wish that you could just turn your icon to that of a fighter (with an astrick for the restore spell).

[Saliarie]

On my server there is a Sorc (by Icon) who uses his spell slots for self buffing. I leveled up with him (dont know the guy personnally) BUT it blew everytime I got into a group with him (Von Three in particular) because everyone ASSUMED he was a Sorc in the offensive spell casting sense. Could he kill stuff yeah, did he do it well...I would say no but perhaps he was exploring possibilities or thinking outside the box. Problem was we all went on the quest EXPECTING a firewall that never came. Same thing with anytoon. Rogues who cant pop traps, Clerics who dont party heal, Sorcs and Wizards that dont cast buffs or offensive spells can be misleading. Its the misleading thats annoying and so my gut sinks when I hear, "Im a battle cleric". I've learned to work with the group you got (once I see how the first fight of a pug quest goes). If the cleric wants to play the battle cleric I may fall back and pull out my wands and scrolls. This is why I love the utility of the rogue, I can be a little of all the classes to accent what our current group may be missing at the time.

[MorningStarSE]

Why all the hate ???

Oh wait, i'm a healbot, nevermind. Continue the flame!

..()()
.(^.^)
o(>.<)

[Logicman69]

I've never pictured myself as a 'Battle Cleric".. I've always thought of myself as a "Cleric who likes to hit things". :-)

Most quests I split my time 50/50. The key is knowing when to lay back and heal/buff/protect and when to go on swinging. I would never assume my possition is front line on a red=named fight, but trash mobs and portals (Shroud Pt.1.. my favorite part cause I get to switch to a TWF Portal Basher from hell) then let me at em!

[Emili]

The issues arise around B/C's is moreso a result of a great number of players have lack of foresight, skill or knowledge in design of actually playing a multi-facet character. Many players in group seem to take on what I would like to refer to as a "Self-play" style rather then assimilation into the group... this results in them not watching the group resources or quest progress in general. Thus Party member are either unprepared (buff wise) or accruing damages while one player who is capable of rectifying this situation is self-endulged rather then helping another party member contribute towards the ends.

The cleric in DnD is a great does-it-all class... in DDO it is much harder to spec that character into being such. DDO seems to have the tendancy especially towards the elite game-play settings to push the limits to the upper boundaries of a class's potential. One only need look at the enhancement system and loot to realize this... ie.) much of the cleric enhancements focus on it's healing aspects, It's quite obvious that DDO's intent for clerics is highly geared towards their healing prowess. The other heal capable classes... ie.) Bards, Pally's and Rangers would have to spend a much greater amount in healing yet not even come close to healing capability of the cleric. Thus the cleric fills this role more than any other class... One does not find too many bards capable of spamming 1000+ hp csw or high criting mass cures let alone the cleric is the only class with a heal spell which if spec's max can break 1400-1500 on a critical... maybe over-kill - but goes to prove the point that great focus on healing is what DDO designed clerics to do best.

Now then... when you back away from the focus, to create a does-it-all - melee/casting cleric - it is very easy to weaken the focus amplitude of the class... ie.) the meleeing B/C generally has a few less sp, few less enhancements, few items inhand when needed and spell dc then the casting cleric or heal-bot thus the healing resouce becomes tighter and thus is a harder character to play a healer with then the heal-bot or the casting cleric. The Meleeing cleric needs a focus on more stats then wisdom and/or charisma... those diverted points into strength, constitution and/or dexterity pull down DC and of course a tad bit of sp. I've yet to see any cleric take divine might - a mainstay of Pally DPS lately - Mainly because most B/C's would not have the cha required of it due to those points put into Strength (or Dex in the case of a stat damaging cleric.

Now to top this off... "Feats", Everyone would agree there is one extremely important feat for any melee toon - "Improved Critical", Plus there are also many feats ie.) greater weapon specializaation, Power attack (and class granted abilities, ie.) twf, etc...) to focus a class towards melee... thus the cleric is feat starved here... because with 7 feats available at level 20... while fighters have 18 and other melee such as ranger, barbarian, rogue and even pally to an extent have much more melee focus'd possibilites outside of spell buffed fighting. Plus for all those feats centered on fighting it displaces one centered on casting thus weakening the casting capability of the cleric... Thus the meleeing B/C becomes a much harder to play character in the average DDO group.

Therefore, imo, the B/C becomes a scrutinized character in DDO because 1.) they are harder to play. and 2.) they are harder to build and maintain balance towards elite end-game.

I know many will tout ... but I can solo x, y and z. So what? People can solo near all level appropriate quest on most classes too if they think it through... I managed a solo of coal chamber on elite with a pure fighter ... is no biggy to solo things as you take the time and the game-plan into your own hands and know the capacity of the character. It is in group that people come to expect a certain play style or function from a class... thus a bad player behind an arcane for instance is not too much of a big deal... but a bad player behind a cleric - slows the party down, costs theparty more costly resources and of course when that cleric is swinging a great axe while the rogue is kiting a mob in circles around him asking for a heal - That get's noted pretty well in the gorups memories."

[Enir]

As a rule, I hate so called 'Battle Clerics'. I have found that they cannot hit and they cannot heal and they do not buff.

I've run a 'healbot' up lvl 12 which suits my support style of play. But now I'm running some lower level quests on solo and discovering the wonderful offensive spells clerics have.

So I role up a new character using the 'Warpriest' DDO path. IT ACTUALLY WORKS!!!
I can solo, I can tank, I can keep up with the heals/ buffs (well, I do need wands and scrolls). Having the khopesh feat really helps, too.
Who knew?

[MrCow]

I've yet to see any cleric take divine might

I have a cleric that uses Divine Might. It can actually be hard to use and justify due to its limited time and micromanagement requirements, moreso on a cleric if you are keeping people alive while trying to throw in some physical damage. Although, when it comes down to piercing DR to get things like Wounding to go off, I find it quite valuable to have.

You also get some rather dirty looks from SP users sometimes when they realize every Divine Might you use could be subtracting from possible SP down the road. Then again, the cleric I use Divine Might on is also a Heavy Repeater specialist and gets enough odd comments as it is. A few extra dirty looks is just icing on the cake.

[Thame]

So I put on my comments I'm a battle cleric but I rarely get invites to groups, and when I don't have a comment up I get invites. When I'm in a group no one says anything about me melee, although when I ask how is my battle cleric people respond as if they never knew I was a battle cleric (is that good or bad? ^^').

People dont like battle clerics because they are ignorant. They want to say clerics are supposed to heal but if you notice they all have a cookie cutter tempest RANGER that does 2 handed melee. If they dont like your battle cleric then **** on them. Let them find someone else to fill the group.

Not recignized has happened to me several times. Recently running Ritual sacrifice in the vale. My battle cleric outkilled their best fighter 3-1 easily. Then they decided they wanted to do RWD, so the caster speaks up that they only have 2 fighters and not enough DPS. He didnt like the fact that I didnt do my role and heal compared to outkilling the other 2 fighters in the group.

My battle cleric is not selfish with his heals, he heals when necessary, (but being a battle cleric we dont have nearthe same sp a typicall healing cleric) if someone in the group doesnt like that then I typically ask them wheres their healing pots? That usually shuts them up real fast.

My advice ignrone the ignorance from the trolls on the board and build the character you like. Dont bend to what others want you to do. Also I usually join a group that already has a cleric and state that Ill be playing the role of a fighter. Then they get ****ed off when I shame their best melee. I love being a battle cleric. Enjoy yours.

[gaki]

People hate battle clerics because what they want and expect is a healer and they are getting disappointed.

Psssssst, Turbine ...

How about allowing vestments of a given faith over your armour and possibly doing a bit more work with the enhancements around faith? That way battle clerics can suit up as Silver Flame or Vulkoor or Dol Dorn adherents and the true healers can suit up as Dol Arrah. Everyone knows who is a true healer, then.

That being said, nothing beats the look on a PUG's face when I summon my scurrow and start spamming Poison around the room as a cleric of Vulkoor. Cue the groans as I point out my bio ...

[Emili]

I have a cleric that uses Divine Might. It can actually be hard to use and justify due to its limited time and micromanagement requirements, moreso on a cleric if you are keeping people alive while trying to throw in some physical damage. Although, when it comes down to piercing DR to get things like Wounding to go off, I find it quite valuable to have.

You also get some rather dirty looks from SP users sometimes when they realize every Divine Might you use could be subtracting from possible SP down the road. Then again, the cleric I use Divine Might on is also a Heavy Repeater specialist and gets enough odd comments as it is. A few extra dirty looks is just icing on the cake.

Thank you for the feedback, I was wondering if anyone out there had tried DM on a cleric as it really is a godsend for any Paladin build spec'd towards DPS... the hardest thing on any meleeing class is maintaining the thresholds for damage output. This is one reason why today's ranger rule the roost - because most of their fighting prowess is passive - Pally is a buffing button mashing melee, as I would assume much of cleric melee would follow suit.

As a rule, I hate so called 'Battle Clerics'. I have found that they cannot hit and they cannot heal and they do not buff.

I've run a 'healbot' up lvl 12 which suits my support style of play. But now I'm running some lower level quests on solo and discovering the wonderful offensive spells clerics have.

So I role up a new character using the 'Warpriest' DDO path. IT ACTUALLY WORKS!!!
I can solo, I can tank, I can keep up with the heals/ buffs (well, I do need wands and scrolls). Having the khopesh feat really helps, too.
Who knew?

That's because you probably know how to cleric and melee... you're experienced. A good many of players are not so adept, nor skilled. Really I think a pretty good practice toon prior to playing a B/C would be a melee capable utility bard... you're more in the background, less is actually expected of you in requirement and you actually get to fit your role and objective into each and every pug.

People dont like battle clerics because they are ignorant. They want to say clerics are supposed to heal but if you notice they all have a cookie cutter tempest RANGER that does 2 handed melee. If they dont like your battle cleric then **** on them. Let them find someone else to fill the group.

Not recignized has happened to me several times. Recently running Ritual sacrifice in the vale. My battle cleric outkilled their best fighter 3-1 easily. Then they decided they wanted to do RWD, so the caster speaks up that they only have 2 fighters and not enough DPS. He didnt like the fact that I didnt do my role and heal compared to outkilling the other 2 fighters in the group.

My battle cleric is not selfish with his heals, he heals when necessary, (but being a battle cleric we dont have nearthe same sp a typicall healing cleric) if someone in the group doesnt like that then I typically ask them wheres their healing pots? That usually shuts them up real fast.

My advice ignrone the ignorance from the trolls on the board and build the character you like. Dont bend to what others want you to do. Also I usually join a group that already has a cleric and state that Ill be playing the role of a fighter. Then they get ****ed off when I shame their best melee. I love being a battle cleric. Enjoy yours.

Well, kill count in a not so good group is actually not a good measure of effectiveness of a character as the player behind the other melee class were not up to playing the class well. Thus you played with some -well, not so par with your caliber - players.


Just for the record here... I'm not an expert on clerics, Just stating what I've seen over the years from observation and from people i know in game. My on hands clericing history stems back as a recipiant from beta - where I played only fighters, bards and rangers - I knew back when though that it was the cleric who made or broke a group... back then we would log in and blind invite all the good cleric's immediately (something people just do not do today) even before we knew what quest we were going to plan... it was the cleric who made a group work. My second character was a Bard - pre mod 1 - and the day drow were introduced I created Amilia (my paladin) and because Heathier (my cleric). Heathier was something I made because my guild pushed me into creating her - Constantly telling me I'd make a good cleric, and of course we were lacking for numbers of the class within the guild. She was built a heal-bot at first (because that's what most clerics were doing successfully back then) but by the time Giant Hold came around I realized the true power of a cleric really lay in it's total casting power... thus she was respec'd to emphasis to be more than a walking shirne.

Note the underline... We ran an elite vale quest last night without a cleric... actually without any designated healer (rosewood was there but she's a meleeing/utility bard). While we often play quests without a cleric these days - for the most significant quests such as an elite Shroud, Vod, Hound or SoS... the cleric's power as a healer often make or break those runs as even run where the DPS is slightly below par on a whole - a cleric can make up for the inadequatcy by virture of staying power.

[Hobgoblin]

cause as has been said earlier in the thread, "bcs" seem to think that the one level of fighter means they only have heal then selves no one else and that one level of fighter makes them equal to a fighter in bab.