Why do people hate battle clerics?

[shores11]

Because too many "Battle Clerics" arent actually battle clerics at all. Most self Proclaimed "Battle Clerics" use the term for an excuse to be a terrible cleric.

Cleric by definition ARE melee capable. They have a Good BAB and 1:1 with Divine Power. They get Heavy armor and Sheild, and no Spell Failure.... The class is designed to be in battle AND heal.

If you dont want to do anything to actually help the party there really istn a good reason to play a cleric at all... You can heal yoruself quite well on a multitued of builds and not carry the stigma of a terrible cleric.

Nicely put...

The problem as I see it with battle clerics is almost exactly what Impaqt is saying. With DDO (aka D&D) most players look for a cleric to help heal the party, cast some buffs and occasionally use some offensive spells like blade barrier, etc... I personally have played both roles as a cleric and have chosen to now play only the healer role in most cases.

My experience as a battle cleric was actually very good through maybe level 13 or 14. I could heal the party effectively which I always took as my priority and I could melee pretty good along with some of the nice offensive spells clerics have. What I found as my "battle cleric" gained in level beyond 13 or 14 was that I was havng to more and more focus on healing the party because the dungeons got tougher. So slowly the battle part of being a cleric became more difficult to play.

As a result I re-rolled my cleric.

My current cleric is what some call a "healbot" or healing cleric and I actually enjoy playing him a lot. My contribution to the party is greater because I focused him on healing and I enjoy the challenge of keeping a party alive at high level and on elite a lot. Some get bored by this class preference but not me as it is challenging in its own right. I still cast offenisive spells when needed but I let the melee types and casters do the damage for the party and keep them alive.

Summary: I found that although you can build an effective battle cleric when all averages are balanced out the party better benefits from a cleric that is willing to focus on healing the party. The reasoning for me is that "Fighters kill, Casters deal and Clerics heal". By that I mean although you can customize ach class and bend to your play style nothing kills better than a well build fighter, barbarian or paladin and a cleric built for healing can heal better than one not built for healing. In the long run its your playing preference but this is why battle clerics are usually not chosen over other healing clerics.

[Thrudh]

The problem is... there are two types of "battle-clerics"

One is a cleric who splashed fighter or paladin, and put some points in STR, and spent a feat or two on fighting feats... This cleric is still primarily a healer, but has the power to mix-it-up....

This is my character, and I call myself a battle-cleric... But when needed, I stand back and just heal... Even when I'm in the middle of battle, I'm watching the red bars, and heal when needed... Healing first, battle second (but these kind of clerics can still be VERY good at battle)

Then there's the 'BATTLE-cleric". This is one who does not heal... He's wants to be accepted to the party as a melee.. He often has deeply multi-classed, and spent many feats on fighting feats...

This kind of character is very effective too, but does normally NOT heal others (he might throw out a heal now and then)... His spells are primary for buffing and healing himself. This kind of character can replace a melee very easily in a party, but then the group will still need to find a healing cleric...

As long as these "BATTLE-clerics" are upfront about what they bring (and don't bring) to a party, I'm fine with them.... Many people are not however... Many people feel they are selfish, by not helping the team more (The argument to that is that they are helping the team just as much as a fighter would be, plus more, since they don't require healing).

However, they have commandered the term "battle-cleric" and given it a bad name to people who expect clerics to heal team-mates... Kind of like a wizard/melee who does not buff anyone else.

Again, there are two types of battle-clerics... Both are viable builds... Most people don't like the second kind, which makes it hard for the first kind.

If you are the second type, then be upfront about it, and expect to be declined from some groups. If you are the first type, don't advertise that you are a battle-cleric and just do your thing.

[adamkatt]

So I put on my comments I'm a battle cleric but I rarely get invites to groups, and when I don't have a comment up I get invites. When I'm in a group no one says anything about me melee, although when I ask how is my battle cleric people respond as if they never knew I was a battle cleric (is that good or bad? ^^').

They dont hate battle clerics. They just hate you.

[Deadz]

if ya wanna fight, BUILD A FIGHTER.
if ya wanna heal, BUILD A CLERIC.

See that's carp (yes carp) cra.. carp

A Cleric can do both of these well.. i consider myself a "battle" cleric. because i have a high str and wis.. i use lots of buffs to increase my capability to fight w/ my longsword..

But i also know in a group setting when it's tough, my job is to Heal.. heal heal.. and i think i do it pretty well.. clerics are the can do it all class in my opinion.. it's just you should be capable of doing your job when it's time.. if i'm the only cleric, i know my primary responsibility is to keep the group alive..

[CSFurious]

the odds of meeting a good battle cleric in a PUG are pretty small IMO

good battle clerics are going to be rare

however, battle clerics are not dps, they are just well-rounded characters

I was just talking with someone about battle clerics this weekend.

In my opinion, playing a battle cleric is one of the hardest styles of play in the game, on any class. Not only do you have to be proficient either in melee or offensive casting, but your attention also is split by helping keep party members alive.

You play another class and you're basically worried about keeping yourself alive (and a lot of people don't even do this, they just rely on the cleric.) You play a battle cleric, and you're either playing the role of a caster or a melee, as well as playing a healer at the same time. A lot of people are just plain bad at doing this. A lot of clerics can't focus on 2 things at the same time. They jump into the middle of mobs and either forget about their party members, or they forget about the mobs (and themselves) in order to throw a couple of heals around, and die in the process.

They're hated b/c it's a difficult way to play. Probably need a lot of experience to be comfortable playing this role. A lot of people just play it poorly, and so a lot of people are wary about the term. If you're lucky to group with some good ones, then the term doesn't carry the stigma that it does for most others.

[Impaqt]

See that's carp (yes carp) cra.. carp

A Cleric can do both of these well.. i consider myself a "battle" cleric. because i have a high str and wis.. i use lots of buffs to increase my capability to fight w/ my longsword..

But i also know in a group setting when it's tough, my job is to Heal.. heal heal.. and i think i do it pretty well.. clerics are the can do it all class in my opinion.. it's just you should be capable of doing your job when it's time.. if i'm the only cleric, i know my primary responsibility is to keep the group alive..

yes.. they Can Fight and heal... The problem isnt the class in most cases.. Its the PLAYER.. Many players simply dont have the Micromanagement abilitys or the twitch skills to effectively do both. Maybe people THINK they do, but they fail misrebly in tough situations. Other realize they cant do both and thus slap the self Proclaimed "BATTLE CLERIC" label on themselves as an excuse to suck.

[Emili]

See that's carp (yes carp) cra.. carp

A Cleric can do both of these well.. i consider myself a "battle" cleric. because i have a high str and wis.. i use lots of buffs to increase my capability to fight w/ my longsword..

But i also know in a group setting when it's tough, my job is to Heal.. heal heal.. and i think i do it pretty well.. clerics are the can do it all class in my opinion.. it's just you should be capable of doing your job when it's time.. if i'm the only cleric, i know my primary responsibility is to keep the group alive..

... and while this may be true, there are a great many players who do not fill both roles well ... either thru skill, playstyle or build. There is no denying either that a fighter, barb, ranger or Pally is easily built into a better functional melee and that a cleric is easy to build into a high focus'd healer. Yes the cleric can do both but there is little doubt that adding focus on a melee role pulls a tad from the healing capability - that is a fact. This is also a contributing factor possibly why some even decent players do not play battle-clerics very well... it is a hard class to play for outstanding results ... maybe good results but not optimal. Thus... many great B/C players suffer the stigma from those who play one badly... I know many a good if not great B/C such as Fawna (from Reidra now Khyber) and of course players like this have no problems getting groups... but if you're not well known and on a B/C well things can get a tad disappointing or leary at times.

[Thame]

the odds of meeting a good battle cleric in a PUG are pretty small IMO

good battle clerics are going to be rare

however, battle clerics are not dps, they are just well-rounded characters

I would disagree with your opinion. Some battle clerics are DPS AND well rounded characters.

Yes IMO they are rare but only based on what your opinion of a battle cleric might be. There are different styles of fighters, barbs, etc. This also applies to battle clerics and clerics in general. I would advise people when looking for a cleric should be open minded to what they will get. Post in LFMs for healing clerics or if looking for melee keep the cleric symbol up and put in battle clerics welcome.

[Zenako]

In a good group, using tactics and appropriate spells and weapons, healing is almost an afterthought. End of the battle gather everyone around for one mass heal and move on. FtS, Greater Command, Disco Balls, Holds, etc all make combat a simpke and painless exercise. Banish those who live on other planes. Begone foul vermin of the netherworlds.

In groups like that, playing a Healbot would be a snore. Play a CLERIC, and you can help control the battlefield. Those weak willed butes with 100+ point damage attacks, do squat when sitting on their butts. Those enemy casters quake when they get shaken by loud noises *(soundburst).

I have a number of clerics. My main capped one is a CLERIC. "Only" 30 Wis, but also hits mid twenties STR. Wields a nice selection of power weapons. Often employ debuffing ones in melee to avoid taking aggro. Cursespewing of Destruction is a nice one, or a Para of shattermantle works nice too. Am I a AC tank, no far from it, but when I fling up the Madsone Shield I have enough AC to matter for most mobs.

The problem with some self proclaimed Battle Clerics is they self define themselves into filling a very limited role. It is like a melee who chooses to not carry ANY ranged weapon or attack form, self imposed limitations which gimp the overall character. OR an arcane caster who only carries one type of spell and ignores whole schools of effects. It would also be like a Trap Monkey who sucked at everything else, a rogue can be so much more. Versatile effective characters who do what is needed to be done will be welcomed in groups. those who are not, will find the welcomes fewer and farther between.

[Almerel]

**** this thread makes me want to make a battle cleric They sound quite fun if played right. My main is currently a wizard with 1 lvl of cleric(it was a sweet build in beta). I rarely die because of all my self buffs and if I remember to bring heal wands I can self heal as well. I made a WF pally so I could pretty much be a battle cleric without the spells of a cleric but also without the worry of keeping others alive. I will throw a LOH on ppl if needed but I like to be self sufficient.

[CSFurious]

you probably play a well-rounded, dps battle cleric

anyway, i think that most would agree that tempest rangers, rogues, & then barbs are the dps hierarchy of this game currently & that most other classes/builds are just support

I would disagree with your opinion. Some battle clerics are DPS AND well rounded characters.

Yes IMO they are rare but only based on what your opinion of a battle cleric might be. There are different styles of fighters, barbs, etc. This also applies to battle clerics and clerics in general. I would advise people when looking for a cleric should be open minded to what they will get. Post in LFMs for healing clerics or if looking for melee keep the cleric symbol up and put in battle clerics welcome.

[TFPAQ]

Saying Battle Cleric is redundant. Rather differentiate by Cleric and Healbot. All clerics are battle clerics, healbots are the "simple" game play.

[Nick_RC]

I love my battlecleric. He kicks ass. Anyone that thinks clerics should just heal is someone that I have no wish to party with ever.

Saying that...Battleclerics used to be around 85-90% of a dps melees dps. Now, with the powerful enhancement lines, a cleric is really about 50-60% of a true dps class. Which sucks. It sucks in a big way. D@mnit has a 28 Str and 38 Wisdom. He has Power Attack. He has a mineral 2 greataxe with holy/wis/wis on it. I dont use it a much as i would like. Only the lightest of trash mobs in certain circumstances are suscpetible to a clerics melee dps. (I run end game elite mainly for reference - those who run normal may have different experiences). The tieflings in the subterrane can be dps'd (but its alot easier to just destruct them) and the troglodytes in shroud part one are a good target if ur runnin low on sp and the casters' are lazy. Also kiting through a bladebarrier swinging with the fantastic range a greataxe gives does very nice cumulative damage.

The stat spread is too thin to enable 2wf and the beatiful weapon effects that brings. So ur going 2 handed.(I hate shields, rangers and w/p). Which, thanks to the lazy attack programming, sucks. Shortcutting the chain is doable, esp when solo, but when u have to take care of idiots all that micromanaging adds up.

Mellee still definately has its place as a cleric (hell you can vorpal as easily as anyone - not as fast as rgrs or with twice the attacks of a 2wf...so well as fas as a sword and board) but as a class, and considering the overall picture, melee has taken a definate rear seat to offensive casting which is sad because meleeing (And im talking dps not wimpy stat dmg/vorpal) Should be part of a clerics arsenal. DPS should be part of anyones arsenal.

Theres just so many things that add up and add up to limit a clerics meleeing prowess. Its like a **** funneling effect.

1. Inflated mob HP. -> Stat dmg -> 2wf
2. seriously powerful melee enhancements -> increased gap in effectiveness between cleric and regular melee
3. Gimped 2 handed attack chain ->superior 2wf dps -> thin stat spread so limiting effectiveness in all areas and nearly forcing a specialist role
(Just take a look at the recent cleric builds and nearly all have tried to fit in 2wf melee... really goes to show how far ahead it is. And We aint gonna get any benefit from barbarian/kensai additional glancing blows...)
4. Lack of Combat buffing spells and enhancements for clerics -> more of point 2.

Hmmmm... Saying all this though I still think clerics are some of the most powerful characters in the game. There melee skills are on the decline from the days of Gianthold. If they bolstered the melee capability of a cleric too much no one would play a tank (see GH again).

Its a situation I cant quite make my mind up on. Id like to see more Melee dps potential, but not to the point where its overpowered. Id like to see us back at about 80% again. Not the 50-60% we currently are. Will that overpower the cleric class? Possibly.

But really, and lets be honest here, who will care that much? Pug clerics will still be there to heal because alot of pugs/casuals dont have the resources/equipment to run without one. The vets wont care as it will mean more people want to play clerics and any healing is better than no healing(and for the vets how often do you play with a cleric anyway..non-raid that is).

I think the main point is tho even if they did give us more melee dps there will only be a few, just like now, who can handle doing these things at the same time anyway!

N

[Nick_RC]

you probably play a well-rounded, dps battle cleric

anyway, i think that most would agree that tempest rangers, rogues, & then barbs are the dps hierarchy of this game currently & that most other classes/builds are just support

I dont knw why i still read ur posts. Support. Right. As in support dps or just support in general there to follow ur rgr and rog around?

[Mani]

So I put on my comments I'm a battle cleric but I rarely get invites to groups, and when I don't have a comment up I get invites. When I'm in a group no one says anything about me melee, although when I ask how is my battle cleric people respond as if they never knew I was a battle cleric (is that good or bad? ^^').

I’ll try not to be too cynical when I answer this question…
But from my experience too many people expect a cleric to be a constant healer in quests and must have the highest wisdom and charisma in order to support cleric/mamma’s boys during mediocre battles. My expectation of a cleric is to fill the role designed for him in the game by original design. Simply to use a sword or bow during most battles and to provide heals when necessary. The reason why people hate battle clerics is because their agenda is for the cleric to do nothing but heal and eventually die in traps and wipe the party and support cleric/mamma’s boys.

[Zoetic]

I prefer to use the term "self-healing tank" for my battle-cleric. He sucks as a healer and is truely a melee combatant. Leveling up I would always make sure to tell party leaders before I join groups, put it in my bio, and mark it in my player note, but I still get would get flack from groups. Just because I have a spell point bar and the cleric icon there is the assumption that I'm playing a healer. It's the fight against that assumption that leads to the stigma we seem to never get over.

I find it easier just to only group with my guild now since they know not to expect me to heal during combat. After combat I'll be happy to help cap people off or raise people if I can.

[shores11]

Saying Battle Cleric is redundant. Rather differentiate by Cleric and Healbot. All clerics are battle clerics, healbots are the "simple" game play.

Because you want to change the terminology doesn't make it so. The term "healbot" in my opinion is silly. Clerics that focus more on casting may be appropriate as they do not just cast heal spells.

[Chaos000]

So I put on my comments I'm a battle cleric but I rarely get invites to groups, and when I don't have a comment up I get invites.

It's usually because towards end content it helps to have a dedicated healer in the party. Usually a battle cleric doesn't hang in the back and continuously watch the health bars of the party members and if they're in the front lines attacking a monster when the health bars of all the party members are dropping fast it becomes a liablity.

It's same as bringing a caster a long that can "haste" more than likely it's to save plat that would've been spent on haste pots. You bring a cleric along to save plat on cure serious potions.

A battlecleric is great to have as a secondary healer, unless they require as much healing as the next guy. Their dps isn't all that spectacular so they're in the realm of sub par dpsers like paladin, monk, bard, rogue w low hp.

[Deadz]

I'm more a "cleric" then a "battle-cleric" lol

[Suzaku]

I'm starting to get repeat invites from people I play with even if I'm in a group asking me to drop or I'm going to end soon. About 6~ people have asked me to be on the friend list. Since I made the original post I shot up from level 5 to 8 (2/5 to 9).

Thanks for your input ^^