Noob thinks 32 point builds should be for all.

[Fenrisulven6]

Well, I must admit that "because" is the best argument in this thread against opening 32s to new players.

[Arianrhod]

When starting out, it wasn't. In case you weren't around for the launch. They added these things in over time. That's what good MMOs do. They had to introduce a mechanism to allow for higher powered players to create new more powerful characters. Thus the Favor reward for the 32 pt build. They can't make it available for every Joe Schmoe that starts a trial account.

Riiiiight. I remember the early days. I remember how every group needed someone with the +10(!) Fighter Attack boost to tackle the top quests. I remember first Redwillow, then Stormcleave, then other quests getting shut down to be rebalanced because people were looting the living daylights out of them. Tell me again how DDO wasn't a high powered game from the start...

All that aside, it really doesn't matter what the game was like 3 years ago. What matters is what it's like now, and how that impacts the new player's experience (and the chances of retaining new players). If something needs to change to keep new players in the game, so be it.

[SableShadow]

Well, I must admit that "because" is the best argument in this thread against opening 32s to new players.

As has been previously stated:

It's an MMO, a persistent universe. If DDO doesn't give a **** about keeping subs longer than a few months, then sure, just change any old thing any old time.

If they want to keep long term players, though, they have to not make a habit of invalidating an offered long term reward....because if that's done too often, no one will bother with chasing those long term rewards, and leave before they otherwise would. (i.e. "Screw your grinds, I'm going home!")

So...there are some real, good-of-game based objections to just doing away with it, just as there are some real, good-of-game based reasons to change it.

That's why some kind of "substitute rewards" and 28 pt to 32 pt upgrades would probably be the best option....but that's all in the hands of Turbine, really, to sort out what they want to do.

All forums really do is suggest.

[Fenrisulven6]

As has been previously stated: they have to not make a habit of invalidating an offered long term reward

Buts its already been invalidated. It no longer includes the extra char slots, and it no longer means what it used to - when the game was capped at 10 (or whatever) and the reward was a badge signifying that you had done everything on elite.

The only purpose it serves now is to frustrate new players who feel they have to grind out 1750 before they can start.

Several years have passed. Its time for change. And quite frankly, I'm a bit tired of the notion that "improvements to x will gimp us because it wasn't available to us back in the day".

[krud]

. And quite frankly, I'm a bit tired of the notion that "improvements to x will gimp us because it wasn't available to us back in the day".

So it's ok if older players feel gimped, but it's not ok if newer players feel gimped?

[darkrhavyn]

Aye i'd roll my rogue now, instead of waiting for 1750 :P If i understand it right.

Personally I dont understand why you are waiting....Youve said you are over 600...that means you have drow available and quite honestly drow make arguably the best rogues....bonus to int dex and cha? thats actually 6 build pts above an elf or human or halfling.

Quite honestly, the 32pt builds were introduced after everyone complained that drow were overpowered, and to give us bored peeps who had been capped forever a reason to start over again.

I will say it again, dont join zerg elite favor runs if you dont like them (i dont like them myself). Do more than Stormcleve and gwylans and info is key and ww ----try running some of the other quests in the market and houses and amazingly you will find that as you level, you have a ton of favor....simple solution.

[SableShadow]

Buts its already been invalidated. It no longer includes the extra char slots, and it no longer means what it used to - when the game was capped at 10 (or whatever) and the reward was a badge signifying that you had done everything on elite.

Watering down != invalidated

The only purpose it serves now is to frustrate new players who feel they have to grind out 1750 before they can start.

It's one of turbine's grinds, and it added "content" to the game once upon a time...heck, that it put you in powergamer mode to grind it out in 3 months shows that it is, in some perverse way, "content" still.

That you find it can frustrate new players who, like you, decide they *must* have it to play the game is a good point, but not the only one.

Several years have passed. Its time for change.

I'm not against your points. I'm against trivializing the case against as "because", just as I'm against trivializing Deadz OP as "I wantz!".

As I've stated several times here, there's a strong case for a change, and has been ever since it first came out.

And quite frankly, I'm a bit tired of the notion that "improvements to x will gimp us because it wasn't available to us back in the day".

Again, making the issue "newbie vs vets" doesn't help the conversation.

[Deadz]

Personally I dont understand why you are waiting....Youve said you are over 600...that means you have drow available and quite honestly drow make arguably the best rogues....bonus to int dex and cha? thats actually 6 build pts above an elf or human or halfling.

Quite honestly, the 32pt builds were introduced after everyone complained that drow were overpowered, and to give us bored peeps who had been capped forever a reason to start over again.

I will say it again, dont join zerg elite favor runs if you dont like them (i dont like them myself). Do more than Stormcleve and gwylans and info is key and ww ----try running some of the other quests in the market and houses and amazingly you will find that as you level, you have a ton of favor....simple solution.

On an unreleated note to the 28-pt 32-pt..
I'm waiting on rolling due to the fact i just don't wanna be drow. i'm going with human for the feat and doing a 19rogue/1monk

[Girevik]

They had to introduce a mechanism to allow for higher powered players to create new more powerful characters. Thus the Favor reward for the 32 pt build. They can't make it available for every Joe Schmoe that starts a trial account.

First, I don't agree with the need for higher powered "players" to also have higher powered "characters".

But, even if that is seen as a valid need, have you ever looked at the posted "builds" on these forums? Even if they open 32 pt builds up to every Joe Schmoe that starts a trial account, the high powered players will still be making more powerful characters. Brand new players are not going to be eating +2 Intelligence tomes at level 1, but your higher powered players avail themselves of this option.

[Grinndal]

What you need to do is not worry about it. It would probably be easier if you didn't even know about the 32pt thing. I didn't know about it 3 years ago when I started playing. Out of my 4 capped mains 2 are 28pt builds. Have I put a lot of time and gear into them yes but that is because that's how long I have been playing. If you have made it to 600 favor then you have unlocked Drow. Drow is the only race that is already a 32 point build. I know you don't see it but because of racial bonuses to stats they are 32 points. In fact because of this even us people have unlocked the 32pts still only get 28 for them.

[Grinndal]

I think your real intent should be to cap your character and then get good gear. If anything gimps a character it is the lack of gear not some stat points.

[sjwalker1973]

Like stated earler, it's about the gear you have and the way you play your toon. Not the extra few stat pips generated by 4 more points of ability purchases at character generation. At most you'll get a +1 mod to a stat, maybe +2 if you're dumping the points into a useful, but not prime stat.

I'm still playing with my ORIGINAL 28pt cleric and he holds his own thanks to the gear I've collected over the years. It's all about KNOWING how to PLAY your toon and the GEAR collected. This takes time. The OP sounds like a casual player who won't last a month because he wants to powergame. Take the time to play and learn about the game before complaining about not having 32 pt builds available.

[Hafeal]

Short shrift considering 28 pages of discussion. The discussion is about perception and why a change would be good. Further, any game, or roll, can be won or lost by 1 and that +1 can make a difference.

Overall, if you have read the whole thread, you would understand the position being advocated by the OP isn't about game play alone.

Further, if the change does not mean much, it is only a +1 after all, why would you then object to such an innocuous change?

Like stated earler, it's about the gear you have and the way you play your toon. Not the extra few stat pips generated by 4 more points of ability purchases at character generation. At most you'll get a +1 mod to a stat, maybe +2 if you're dumping the points into a useful, but not prime stat.

I'm still playing with my ORIGINAL 28pt cleric and he holds his own thanks to the gear I've collected over the years. It's all about KNOWING how to PLAY your toon and the GEAR collected. This takes time. The OP sounds like a casual player who won't last a month because he wants to powergame. Take the time to play and learn about the game before complaining about not having 32 pt builds available.

[jscott457]

Well I made it through the thread and I thought I would post my take since I am a relatively new player.

I have played two other MMOs (EQ and EQ2). I did PnP DnD a long time ago (go go 2nd edition), so I thought DDO would be fun. I have been playing about 3 months now and I really enjoy the game.

I read (and search) the forums a lot and really enjoy the idea of making new builds. My highest two characters are 9th and 8th level, but I have 5 or 6 others that are ~6th level. I also have unlocked drow.

Having said that, it does seriously irk me to know that no matter how much I play or what I do, I can't take my favorite character and eventually earn them the benefit of a 32 pt. build.

It is like getting on a project at work where you know the project will never see the light of day. It just sort of sucks to be working on a "throw away" project. I know a 28 pt. character is not really gimped, but planned obsolescene still sucks. Imagine if you knew all characters created after April 2009 would have a built in 10% increase in attack speed and spell cool downs. Of course, you could work on improving and leveling characters between now and April, but it would be a lot less fun. You would really rather be working on a post-April character. Now if I didn't know the big speed boost was coming in April, I wouldn't have a problem. However, I KNOW 32 pt. builds are available at 1750 favor. It makes a difference!

I would not mind having to work for the extra build points. Make it hard if you like, but just don't make it so I have to reroll. At the very least, don't let me know I will need to reroll!

JS

[Fenrisulven6]

Overall, if you have read the whole thread, you would understand the position being advocated by the OP isn't about game play alone.

Yah, you guys [jmccn & sjwalker] necro'ed a point we already explained doesn't address the issue.

At least you didn't tell me to quit whining and get back to earning my 1750...


Hat tip to jscott who actually bothered to read & understand the thread. Thanks, much appreciated.

[SableShadow]

I know a 28 pt. character is not really gimped, but planned obsolescene still sucks.

Best single line in the thread; well summarized.

Re: Prestige classes in other games (comment not addressed to quoted player): They are something a little different; class, race, special abilities, whatever. You're not doing a 1-to-1 replacement of your character, only better, as is the case of 28s vs 32s.

[FluffyCalico]

32 point is better than 28 point :P

[...v...]

I'm sure this argument has happened 100 times but let me say my peace, then you can trash it all you want .

as a married man with a newborn, i hardly get time to mmo.. now the strength of DDO is caracter creation, but.. without time, it's very hard to group alot, and it's very hard to cap a character.. you all see how many posts i have, when i started.. well this is my third account (they are like 2 bucks on cd-key sites).. and i have my first toon approaching 600 favor.. lol

what this does to me, personally.. it keeps me from trying alts and experimenting, which imo is the strength of this game, severely decreasing my "fun factor"

the favor makes sense, and the "cap" gives you that +2 tome, so people still get something, i just personally feel that the lack of 32 point builds makes me feel like my alts are "gimped" from the start.. i'm not saying they wouldn't be w/ 32 points (go ahead, giggle) but the feeling is there, decreasing my fun factor..

and

2) this would not hurt anyone in any way shape or form.. yes the hardcore say they "earned it" and everyone should as well.. but I feel this game is no longer new, and well, what's the point imo it makes more sense to put everyone on a level playing field and INCREASE the fun factor for the casuals, without DECREASING the fun factor for the rest...

Just my opinion, but i can live with trieing like heck to grind out those points to get my 32 pointer, i'd just rather roll my 32 point rogue and enjoy him .

think you can get 400 favor really easy and unlock drow which is a 32 point.

[FluffyCalico]

think you can get 400 favor really easy and unlock drow which is a 32 point.

Don't go there drow is NOT 32 point.

Drow is racially enhanced 28 point. Not even close to the same thing.

Speaking of which lets ask for 32 point drow at 2500 favor

[Cinwulf]

I'm sure this argument has happened 100 times but let me say my peace, then you can trash it all you want .

as a married man with a newborn, i hardly get time to mmo.. now the strength of DDO is caracter creation, but.. without time, it's very hard to group alot, and it's very hard to cap a character.. you all see how many posts i have, when i started.. well this is my third account (they are like 2 bucks on cd-key sites).. and i have my first toon approaching 600 favor.. lol

what this does to me, personally.. it keeps me from trying alts and experimenting, which imo is the strength of this game, severely decreasing my "fun factor"

the favor makes sense, and the "cap" gives you that +2 tome, so people still get something, i just personally feel that the lack of 32 point builds makes me feel like my alts are "gimped" from the start.. i'm not saying they wouldn't be w/ 32 points (go ahead, giggle) but the feeling is there, decreasing my fun factor..

and

2) this would not hurt anyone in any way shape or form.. yes the hardcore say they "earned it" and everyone should as well.. but I feel this game is no longer new, and well, what's the point imo it makes more sense to put everyone on a level playing field and INCREASE the fun factor for the casuals, without DECREASING the fun factor for the rest...

Just my opinion, but i can live with trieing like heck to grind out those points to get my 32 pointer, i'd just rather roll my 32 point rogue and enjoy him .

I'm married with a newborn as well, and I finally reached 1750, anyone can do it. Just takes a bit of time, but not that much.