Noob thinks 32 point builds should be for all.

[Deadz]

This. Oh, so this.

THanks..

[SableShadow]

And honestly, i haven't seen very little reason other then a) i did it so should you or b) you don't need it! well guess what, i don't need it, i'm still here, having fun took me 3 tries..

It's an MMO, a persistent universe. If DDO doesn't give a **** about keeping subs longer than a few months, then sure, just change any old thing any old time.

If they want to keep long term players, though, they have to not make a habit of invalidating an offered long term reward....because if that's done too often, no one will bother with chasing those long term rewards, and leave before they otherwise would. (i.e. "Screw your grinds, I'm going home!")

So...there are some real, good-of-game based objections to just doing away with it, just as there are some real, good-of-game based reasons to change it.

That's why some kind of "substitute rewards" and 28 pt to 32 pt upgrades would probably be the best option....but that's all in the hands of Turbine, really, to sort out what they want to do.

All forums really do is suggest.

[Fenrisulven6]

Here is an interesting trend I have noticed: It's not the players who have been playing the longest who are complaining, even though many of us still keep our 28-point characters when 32 pointers are *technically* better.

Wrong. You have vets in this very thread who oppose it simply because it wouldn't apply to their 28s that they didn't reroll. Don't you see what that means?

It is the newer players, or the players who split their time between too many toons, who are complaining.

Wrong. I had one toon until I hit 1750. Precisely because of the favor system. It limits.

The funny thing is, players who say that they should be able to get 32 point builds sooner are the ones who don't have it yet, and have no context for comparison.

Wrong again. I have 32pt builds and am one of the strongest advocates on this thread for opening 32s to new players, so they DONT have to go what I went through. I'm well aware of the "context for comparison" and its irrelevant. Its not about the lack of 4 points gimping your toon. I wish you had bothered to read the thread.

/sidebar: if, as the vets insist, that 4 points really means nothing.... then how come the vets are asking 6-12 million gold for a +2 tome? Its yet another contradiction that weakens the credibility of the arguments against. If those 4 points are so trivial, then by all means, send me your +1 and +2 tomes. Thanks in advance

Notice that the difference between the 32-point character and the 28-point character is...

...that I can reroll the 32 at will if I want to; whereas rerolling the 28 would have cost me the 1200 favor I had accumulated.

Consider that the primary reason a 32-point character is a thousand times better than a 28 point character is because the player with the 32-point character has played enough missions (normal, hard, elite) to unlock the extra 4 points, and has the experience (player experience, not character experience) to have completely mastered his/her gameplay.

sigh. I really wish you had read the thread. I've already demonstrated that its just the opposite - new players, like me and others on the thread, have been zerging favor runs to unlock 32s and learned little to nothing on the way, Here it is again for you:

"the need to finish out 1750 favor so I could start rolling up new toons resulted in many zerg groups with new players like me just trying to keep up and not take a wrong turn [which usually resulted in death]. Sometimes we banded together - 3 of us trying to figure out the map [The Pit, ughhh] while the rest of the party fought monsters and had fun. Each quest was a flash of broken crates and open portals as I rushed to catch up. Hardly learned anything about the quests or the DDO mechanics along the way. Which is likely why you see so many 32pt peeps who don't know the quest. Is this the way you want new blood introduced to the game?"

Its only NOW, after unlocking 32s and building my stable of toons, that I have the luxury to sit back experience the game, learn the quests at my own pace and gain the experience you wrongly assume comes with leveling gimpy unfun 28s that are only being ridden to "power-favor" to 1750.

[Freeman]

Wrong. You have vets in this very thread who oppose it simply because it wouldn't apply to their 28s that they didn't reroll. Don't you get what that means?

Yes, it means vets don't want new players to get something that isn't available to everyone, mainly the ability to have all of their characters be 32pt builds without having to reroll. If everyone gets that ability, then it would be fine with me. How else did you interpret it?

[Kalari]

But by your own argument I dont see how 32 point builds will help. Its not the stat points its players mentality. Sure id like to see a game where people just grouped to take on the quest and didnt care about min maxing and I have been lucky Ive been priviledge to find groups of players who log in to have fun and will take on quests without the optimum builds. And I know thats not for everyone but I dont see how having more stats to make a better character will stop people from wanting new players to know their way all the time, will zerg even if the people in their parties dont know what they are doing. To me this issue isnt having a 28pt vs 32 pt build its a issue of peoples need to have everything perfect with little chance of failing in quests and raids. And thats sad, in pencil and paper no one stopped to ask what other peoples builds were made up of we used our imaginations. And sometimes yes "gasp" we died against a lich lord or dragon, or if you ****ed the Dm off angry villagers who knew your weakness and ganked ya lol. I know its unrealistic to ask for that in a mmo but since this one is based on grouping and socializing and Dungeons and Dragons you would think it would be less important what your fellow quester did to build his/her character oppose to having fun and exploring.

[Hafeal]

... you would think it would be less important what your fellow quester did to build his/her character oppose to having fun and exploring.

And thus it wouldn't matter if players were given 32 pt builds from day one.

I agree.

[Zenako]

/sidebar: if, as the vets insist, that 4 points really means nothing.... then how come the vets are asking 6-12 million gold for a +2 tome? Its yet another contradiction that weakens the credibility of the arguments against. If those 4 points are so trivial, then by all means, send me your +1 and +2 tomes. Thanks in advance

Nope, a tome adds Stat points not Build points and goes on TOP of base stat as an INherent Bonus.

So it could be worth as little as 2 build points, taking a 10 to a 12 for exaple, or as much as 14 build points if applied to a stat you had raised to 24 already to take it to 26 points. (the progression of build costs increases by 1 every two stat points after 14. 15,16 cost 2 each, 17,18 cost 3 each, etc. You could stat a Drow for example at 20 CHA, use 4 level boosts to raise it to 24, and then read a +2 tome raising it to 26 effective Base.

[Freeman]

Its only NOW, after unlocking 32s and building my stable of toons, that I have the luxury to sit back experience the game, learn the quests at my own pace and gain the experience you wrongly assume comes with leveling gimpy 28s that are only being ridden to "power-favor" to 1750.

Hmm, I was going to respond to this part as well, but then I realize that with just a few tweaks, you'd already written the response.

So, because you CHOSE to zerg your 28 pointer until you opened 32, everyone else should start with 32 pointers?

There are many different styles of gameplay, and this only represents one of them. Most people are not going to fall into this category, based on my own experiences in game as well as the postings I've seen here. Will there be people that do this? Of course. Will some people quit the game instead? Yes. I'm not disputing that it will occur. However, only Turbine has any real data on the actual numbers involved. Unless they decide the numbers are high enough to be concerned about, I doubt there will be any changes.

[Zenako]

Not that analogies ever go over well, but while thinking about other games or situations which have aspects in common with this discussion I came up with an excellent one.

ACBL = Amercian Contract Bridge League.

To play in tournements you have a ranking based on points (favor) you have accumulated. You get some points for just playing (normal), and more if you win some (hard) and even more if you do really well in a tournement (elite). Points never go away as long as you keep playing, it is a cumulative system. ANYONE who begins starts with 0 points, even if they were a "world class bridge player", and are not allowed to enter tournements until they reach certain point levels. For a medicore player it might take months or years of play to be allowed to enter a 300 point tourney while a real good player could hit those levels in a lot shorter time.

Everyone knows the way it works, you want to play in the 5000 point tourneys, you have to play a lot and likely win a lot. It is a privledge you have to earn. (And yes you have to pay for the privledge since every tourney has an entry fee too.) When you hit certain point (favor) levels you get certain perks not available to those who have not gotten them yet.

so i see this as another game where you have to play to earn perks and to be able to play in matches or tourneys you want to. You cannot just show up and start at the elite settings.

[Kalari]

I agree with this, I know not everyone feels the same but when Kalari unlocked 1750 it felt earned, and maybe because I honestly didnt give two hoots about it in the first place it didnt seem like a grind. And I did not rebuild nor would I ever re roll her, I dont think extra stats would matter for her anyway. I get some people want those builds that can handle anything thrown at them or want to keep up with the jonses. But to me you can have just as much fun with a 28 pt build if you dont worry about what other people have. Im sure there are those who will argue my opinion about this but its still to me players mentality not lack of having optimal stats.

Not that analogies ever go over well, but while thinking about other games or situations which have aspects in common with this discussion I came up with an excellent one.

ACBL = Amercian Contract Bridge League.

To play in tournements you have a ranking based on points (favor) you have accumulated. You get some points for just playing (normal), and more if you win some (hard) and even more if you do really well in a tournement (elite). Points never go away as long as you keep playing, it is a cumulative system. ANYONE who begins starts with 0 points, even if they were a "world class bridge player", and are not allowed to enter tournements until they reach certain point levels. For a medicore player it might take months or years of play to be allowed to enter a 300 point tourney while a real good player could hit those levels in a lot shorter time.

Everyone knows the way it works, you want to play in the 5000 point tourneys, you have to play a lot and likely win a lot. It is a privledge you have to earn. (And yes you have to pay for the privledge since every tourney has an entry fee too.) When you hit certain point (favor) levels you get certain perks not available to those who have not gotten them yet.

so i see this as another game where you have to play to earn perks and to be able to play in matches or tourneys you want to. You cannot just show up and start at the elite settings.

[Fenrisulven6]

So, because you CHOSE to zerg your 28 pointer until you opened 32, everyone else should start with 32 pointers?

There are many different styles of gameplay, and this only represents one of them. Most people are not going to fall into this category, based on my own experiences in game as well as the postings I've seen here.

Okay, I see I need to clarify - we would rather NOT have zerged it, but most the elite LFMs on my server are by vets who are power leveling.
So its either tag along or waste another 2 months limping towards 1750 by doing it n/h/e

And while I appreciate your experiences in game, mine have been different.

[Fenrisulven6]

so i see this as another game where you have to play to earn perks and to be able to play in matches or tourneys you want to

Who are you playing matches/tourneys against in DDO?

[PurdueDave]

Not that analogies ever go over well, but while thinking about other games or situations which have aspects in common with this discussion I came up with an excellent one.

ACBL = Amercian Contract Bridge League.

To play in tournements you have a ranking based on points (favor) you have accumulated. You get some points for just playing (normal), and more if you win some (hard) and even more if you do really well in a tournement (elite). Points never go away as long as you keep playing, it is a cumulative system. ANYONE who begins starts with 0 points, even if they were a "world class bridge player", and are not allowed to enter tournements until they reach certain point levels. For a medicore player it might take months or years of play to be allowed to enter a 300 point tourney while a real good player could hit those levels in a lot shorter time.

Everyone knows the way it works, you want to play in the 5000 point tourneys, you have to play a lot and likely win a lot. It is a privledge you have to earn. (And yes you have to pay for the privledge since every tourney has an entry fee too.) When you hit certain point (favor) levels you get certain perks not available to those who have not gotten them yet.

so i see this as another game where you have to play to earn perks and to be able to play in matches or tourneys you want to. You cannot just show up and start at the elite settings.

IMO, that's an inappropriate analogy. The ACBL rating system is a binning system, not a reward system. Favor in DDO is a reward system. DDO has a binning system by way of character level and, to some extent, quest flagging. If the ACBL system was a reward system you would get to play with a marked deck or something.

[Hafeal]

If all the benefits of reaching 1750 had an affect on only THAT character, I would agree with this logic. Your bridge master points cannot be transferred to another person. Your ability to begin new character(s) because of what you do with an already created character has no logical relation - it destroys any story line at all and has nothing to do with the accomplishment of the character. Bridge points represent something of your play, well, until we discover many pay to play to get points, but I digress.

Originally, I would hazard a guess, the 1750 "reward" was to keep people interested in playing because there was a paucity of content and the level cap was 10.

Not so any longer. I think the reward for 1750 can remain a +2 tome or such other award as Turbine deigns right for THAT character. I believe "account" rewards, which would include the ability to open drow, should be tied to your length of subscription - a true win win for players and Turbine.

1750 does not represent any attained skill; some may say it once did, I would argue that is debatable. Certainly today 1750 simply represents the ability to play enough to complete quests - with no indication that your skill had anything to do with it.

Not that analogies ever go over well, but while thinking about other games or situations which have aspects in common with this discussion I came up with an excellent one.

ACBL = Amercian Contract Bridge League.

To play in tournements you have a ranking based on points (favor) you have accumulated. You get some points for just playing (normal), and more if you win some (hard) and even more if you do really well in a tournement (elite). Points never go away as long as you keep playing, it is a cumulative system. ANYONE who begins starts with 0 points, even if they were a "world class bridge player", and are not allowed to enter tournements until they reach certain point levels. For a medicore player it might take months or years of play to be allowed to enter a 300 point tourney while a real good player could hit those levels in a lot shorter time.

Everyone knows the way it works, you want to play in the 5000 point tourneys, you have to play a lot and likely win a lot. It is a privledge you have to earn. (And yes you have to pay for the privledge since every tourney has an entry fee too.) When you hit certain point (favor) levels you get certain perks not available to those who have not gotten them yet.

so i see this as another game where you have to play to earn perks and to be able to play in matches or tourneys you want to. You cannot just show up and start at the elite settings.

[SableShadow]

Originally, I would hazard a guess, the 1750 "reward" was to keep people interested in playing because there was a paucity of content and the level cap was 10.

Not so any longer.

Solid point. We called favor a grind at that point because, well, it was a grind.

I think the reward for 1750 can remain a +2 tome or such other award as Turbine deigns right for THAT character.

If it's a +2 tome, then there is, basically, no reward for 1750. Best strategy is to hit the higher levels quickly rather than branching out and doing diverse quests; leveling goes faster than favor even now, and with +3 unbounds going to be dropping in Mod 9, it becomes harder to justify bothering with 1750. Faction rewards, now...that's another matter. Sufficiently good faction rewards that total to 1750 would make the 1750 mark irrelevant no matter how you looked at it.

I believe "account" rewards, which would include the ability to open drow, should be tied to your length of subscription - a true win win for players and Turbine.

Works in CoH. I haven't played seriously in years, just pop in now and again to do something, but my vet rewards keep ticking off.

[Denox21]

Huh? Your sig has a 16th and 3 other characters listed...



How are you brand new to the game?

Oh sorry, thats what my character will be AT 16 Ill change it.

[Fenrisulven6]

Oh sorry, thats what my character will be AT 16 Ill change it.

No need to change it. I just found it confusing considering you claimed to be new.

[krud]

Its only NOW, after unlocking 32s and building my stable of toons, that I have the luxury to sit back experience the game, learn the quests at my own pace and gain the experience you wrongly assume comes with leveling gimpy unfun 28s that are only being ridden to "power-favor" to 1750.

28pt builds are not gimped. As has been pointed out, and also mentioned by the OP, it is a mere perception, and not really grounded in reality. The "unfun" you speak of is a completely self-imposed obsession that you have brought upon yourself. That is probably why it gets so little sympathy from veteran players, quite a few who still have and enjoy their 28pt builds, with their so-called "gimpy" stats and all.

32pt builds are a pitch to the power gamer, to give them things to do with their excess time. It's just like all the new raid loot crafting. If you want to be like a powergamer then you play like one. If you don't have the time then accept the reality and play accordingly. It's not the 4 build points that control the fun in the game, you do. Your choosing to obsess over them is what is making the game unfun for yourself.

This is one case where I agree with branmakmuffin. " If it's not fun, why do it?"

[sjwalker1973]

I'm still playing with my original 28Pt build cleric so quit your whining. It's all in HOW you PLAY the character and not HOW you BUILD the character. Oh that +2 to a stat is really going to help over all with a +1 mod somewhere.

[KuRRuPT]

I'm sure this argument has happened 100 times but let me say my peace, then you can trash it all you want .

as a married man with a newborn, i hardly get time to mmo.. now the strength of DDO is caracter creation, but.. without time, it's very hard to group alot, and it's very hard to cap a character.. you all see how many posts i have, when i started.. well this is my third account (they are like 2 bucks on cd-key sites).. and i have my first toon approaching 600 favor.. lol

what this does to me, personally.. it keeps me from trying alts and experimenting, which imo is the strength of this game, severely decreasing my "fun factor"

the favor makes sense, and the "cap" gives you that +2 tome, so people still get something, i just personally feel that the lack of 32 point builds makes me feel like my alts are "gimped" from the start.. i'm not saying they wouldn't be w/ 32 points (go ahead, giggle) but the feeling is there, decreasing my fun factor..

and

2) this would not hurt anyone in any way shape or form.. yes the hardcore say they "earned it" and everyone should as well.. but I feel this game is no longer new, and well, what's the point imo it makes more sense to put everyone on a level playing field and INCREASE the fun factor for the casuals, without DECREASING the fun factor for the rest...

Just my opinion, but i can live with trieing like heck to grind out those points to get my 32 pointer, i'd just rather roll my 32 point rogue and enjoy him .

I have all most a full account of lv 16's that I roll have to pull off runing after every one is sleep or your days off with a nany there....To me DDO is the most Ez game in all mmo's to get to lv 16 or lv 20 because we don't have enough content if you think this is bad sure hate to see you have to get a toon to lv 50 8) hook with some good peps when you are on you can get 2 to 3 lv's in 1 day... But let me say this it will depend on what server you are on because you have a lot of peps on some of these servers that I can't beleave what they are asking for to be in a team...If you are on one of those servers hurry up and move your toon to another server...the way to see what server will play well were you have a lot of good peps that like to play and then move your toons to that server...you can get to be lv 16 in a week or 2 depending on the team that likes to run run run untill they get tired....