Noob thinks 32 point builds should be for all.

[Deadz]

Uska, you should be a little more respectful of people's opinions and stop trying to dismiss any opinion that disagrees with yours as "whining". Not only does it diminish whatever points you're trying to express, it's really a ****-poor way of trying to win any argument. Really, if you'd taken the time to read any of my posts, you'd see that I'm not whining, I have nothing to gain from this except possibly more people to play the game with. Which I think we can all agree would not be a benefit exclusive to me.

Furthermore, we both know that if someone had called you a name like "crybaby", you'd report them. Good to see you think you're above the rules. "Do as I say, not as I do", eh?

/signed why do you think i just keep replying to This joker with exactly what Uska said, after the 10th time of seeing this person call people "whiners" and "crybabys" in posts, i just got sick of seeing someone being downright rude....

[Strakeln]

Your point is noted and your opinion respected. However please understand that it seem the majority of players agree with the current favor system as do I. I do not think that any change is needed at all and enjoy the trek to 1750 very much.

No offense, but unless you have any data to back that up, you can't claim to share your opinion with the "majority of players". You don't have that data, neither do I. In fact, my perception has been exactly the opposite - while most people don't care a big deal either way, when the inherent penalties of the existing system are explained, they tend to agree that it should be changed somehow.

Who is right? Pffft... damned if I know. Assuming the DDO population is still around 100k, when you combine the people you and I know, it's probably under 1% of all players.

[shores11]

And again I ask... so?

Single-minded approach. There have been dozens of reasonable suggestions of rewards to replace this one or to fit into a redesigned favor structure. Many of them are easily as desirable as 32-point builds, but without the inherent penalty of the current 1750 system.

The flaw in your understanding of my reasoning is that it has anything to do with character power and "gimped" status. As I've clearly stated several times, this is about how people feel (new players in particular), not about whether not having 4 points gimps a character.

What penalty is there in the current system one that exists in a few players heads I think. Listen it is a level playing field for every player, get to 1750 favor points and you to will have access to 32 point character builds for future characters. Where is the penalty if we are all under the same condition?

Bottom line is a select group of individuals will argue about just about anything so that they feel important, get a life.

[branmakmuffin]

And again I ask... so?

And I say again "Then it wouldn't be a reward."

Your turn.

In honesty, the fact if they are or not isn't the issue.. it's how it makes new players feel.

And if everyone got 32-point builds, they'd have to find something else to replace the 32-point build reward with. And then new players would be complaining about that.

And the cycle will never end.

[Strakeln]

And I say again "Then it wouldn't be a reward."

Your turn.

So I'll ask: why does it have to be a reward?

Should Draconic Vitality be a reward? Why? Why not?

[Deadz]

And I say again "Then it wouldn't be a reward."

Your turn.


And if everyone got 32-point builds, they'd have to find something else to replace the 32-point build reward with. And then new players would be complaining about that.

And the cycle will never end.

i respectfully disagree bran, i personally -think- that the complaining again is due to the need to play character a to buff character b aspect, if it was a reward for playing the same character, it wouldn't have created the negative feeling it created in me. I don't care that i need 1750 favor to get the +2 tome, infact, i look foward to that one.

[shores11]

No offense, but unless you have any data to back that up, you can't claim to share your opinion with the "majority of players". You don't have that data, neither do I. In fact, my perception has been exactly the opposite - while most people don't care a big deal either way, when the inherent penalties of the existing system are explained, they tend to agree that it should be changed somehow.

Who is right? Pffft... damned if I know. Assuming the DDO population is still around 100k, when you combine the people you and I know, it's probably under 1% of all players.

Ok no data but then my perception is that players have no problem with the current system and many I talk to never visit the forums. I play on Khyber mostly and have been playing for 3 plus years now. I do discuss forum issues in game as does some of the ones I play with and most (if not all) like the current favor system very much. In fact many want to enhance the favor system at higher favor point levels to unlock other account wide benefits. Which according to you would also be a penalty.

There are NO inherent penalties to the current favor system as we all have the exact same ruleset to reach 32 point builds.

[Deadz]

What penalty is there in the current system one that exists in a few players heads I think. Listen it is a level playing field for every player, get to 1750 favor points and you to will have access to 32 point character builds for future characters. Where is the penalty if we are all under the same condition?

I agree 100% that it's in the players heads.. that is not something i disagree at all with, i think our right on with that.. but the problem is it is in the NEW players heads and a turn off to the game for some, while not a turn on to the game for others

Bottom line is a select group of individuals will argue about just about anything so that they feel important, get a life.

aww you almost did it, make a constructive point without resulting to name calling / insulting.. keep on trying, you can do it! /snickers

[shores11]

i respectfully disagree bran, i personally -think- that the complaining again is due to the need to play character a to buff character b aspect, if it was a reward for playing the same character, it wouldn't have created the negative feeling it created in me. I don't care that i need 1750 favor to get the +2 tome, infact, i look foward to that one.

Well the one thing we can look forward to is that the system is not slated to be changed thank god for that. If you have came to a game that has slighted you so much then why play on it. Most of us enjoy the 32 favor system very much.

I suppose it might also be very unfair in your mind for a player to send another of his characters a nice item or weapon since a new character can't have access to that same weapon or item until they get a little higher in level or quest as much as existing players has. After all this is also a benefit that favors the whole account of a player since they can distribute items and gold to any of their other characters.

[Strakeln]

What penalty is there in the current system one that exists in a few players heads I think. Listen it is a level playing field for every player, get to 1750 favor points and you to will have access to 32 point character builds for future characters. Where is the penalty if we are all under the same condition?

That's sort of like saying the following:

"We're all running a 1 mile race, but the rest of us are going to start walking 2 hours before the race so that when the race starts, we'll be 1/2 a mile ahead. Hey... it's a fair playing field for all of us, too bad you didn't decide to start the race 2 hours ago with the rest of us."

Granted, this analogy is sort of apples-to-oranges, as this isn't a race. But the similarities of that example - that the new contestant would be less enticed to join the race in the first place - are where the real problems lie.

I think, as has been suggested many times before, that the best solution would be to make 1750 retroactive to the character that earned it. This way, a new player won't feel that their time spent gaining 1750 was "wasted".

This may not be a big issue to some, but my playstyle does not equal your playstyle does not equal some new guy's playstyle. I may only be mildly annoyed by "wasting" that time, it may not bother you at all, but I absolutely, positively, GUARANTEE that it ticks some people off to the point that they won't even try the game.

Bottom line is a select group of individuals will argue about just about anything so that they feel important, get a life.

I'll assume you were directing this at people in general, and not at anyone in particular.

[RazorrX]

/sarcasm on

This thread has inspired me. I used to think that I was working toward something when i worked towards goals. That when I earned my 32 point build I had acomplished something. While in the big picture it was not much, but to me it was a cool achievement.

When I pulled my very first Bloodstone after almost 3 years of playing I was excited! I finally pulled one! Whoot!

NOW I see the light!

I think that nothing should be a reward. Every player should start with a 32 pt build max level fully Raid item equipped character. Heck 1 of each. Because you know . . . that is only fair. I should not have to work to have what others have, it should be given to me, I pay my money per month just like they do!

Crafting - Bah! Too hard! When you first log in it should ask what greensteel items you want, what properties you want on them and create them in your inventory. I mean *other* players have this stuff and I should not have to *earn* mine. Do you know what a grind it is to run those quests over and over to get the ingredients, etc.? That is in _NO_ way fair!

The fact that they have stuff better than me is just not fair!

OOOH! how about a "I WIN" button that when you start the game it even plays "We are the Champions" and tells you how uber you are while letting you pick what gear you want? Yep I see the light now!

/sarcasm off

[Deadz]

Well the one thing we can look forward to is that the system is not slated to be changed thank god for that. If you have came to a game that has slighted you so much then why play on it.

I never have said it has once, i've stated tons of times i can live with it as it has, i have agreed with the counter arguement in some ways, i'm enjoying the debate of pro's and con's.. most of all i'm sharing my OPINION on why i think they could do better...

Most of us enjoy the 32 favor system very much.[/COLOR]

Most of you it doesn't apply to anymore in reality

I suppose it might also be very unfair in your mind for a player to send another of his characters a nice item or weapon since a new character can't have access to that same weapon or item until they get a little higher in level or quest as much as existing players has. After all this is also a benefit that favors the whole account of a player since they can distribute items and gold to any of their other characters.[/COLOR]

nah it's part of every mmo, it doesn't effect your POTENTIAL to be equal where the 32-point / 28-point issue does..

Another note, I really try to keep the "quitting" side of the argument out of it, since it doesn't apply to me, i have a BLAST with ddo.. but a good friend of mine rolled up a character, the game wasn't for him to be honest and one of the comments he made was about drow and 32-point builds.. he stated he hated that (well what he really said i couldn't say on the forums).. and i know others who think it's stupid. I understand the vets care little of the new players opinions, but we need everyone's subscription we can get, no?

edited to add: Hey look it took me 507 posts to learn how to multi-quote!

[Deadz]

/sarcasm on

This thread has inspired me. I used to think that I was working toward something when i worked towards goals. That when I earned my 32 point build I had acomplished something. While in the big picture it was not much, but to me it was a cool achievement.

When I pulled my very first Bloodstone after almost 3 years of playing I was excited! I finally pulled one! Whoot!

NOW I see the light!

I think that nothing should be a reward. Every player should start with a 32 pt build max level fully Raid item equipped character. Heck 1 of each. Because you know . . . that is only fair. I should not have to work to have what others have, it should be given to me, I pay my money per month just like they do!

Crafting - Bah! Too hard! When you first log in it should ask what greensteel items you want, what properties you want on them and create them in your inventory. I mean *other* players have this stuff and I should not have to *earn* mine. Do you know what a grind it is to run those quests over and over to get the ingredients, etc.? That is in _NO_ way fair!

The fact that they have stuff better than me is just not fair!

OOOH! how about a "I WIN" button that when you start the game it even plays "We are the Champions" and tells you how uber you are while letting you pick what gear you want? Yep I see the light now!

/sarcasm off

So what you are saying is you have nothing constuctive to add? I get it...

[Strakeln]

Ok no data but then my perception is that players have no problem with the current system and many I talk to never visit the forums. I play on Khyber mostly and have been playing for 3 plus years now. I do discuss forum issues in game as does some of the ones I play with and most (if not all) like the current favor system very much. In fact many want to enhance the favor system at higher favor point levels to unlock other account wide benefits. Which according to you would also be a penalty.

Okay, really no point in arguing this here, neither of us have the numbers to back it up. However, if your stance is that your point is more valid because you talk with a lot of people on Khyber, well, you just shot yourself on the foot. Why's that? Simple: because I talk to WAY more people on Khyber than you do. Don't forget what my 2nd account does for a living.

Of note, account-wide rewards are not necessarily bad, they do not necessarily carry inherent penalties to game play. The way this one is set up, it does... and as I've mentioned several times, minor tweaks to the existing system (ex: retroactive application to the char that earned the favor) would remove those inherent penalties altogether.

There are NO inherent penalties to the current favor system as we all have the exact same ruleset to reach 32 point builds.

Denying their existence doesnt' make them go away. I will concede that this is a matter of opinion.

[shores11]

That's sort of like saying the following:

"We're all running a 1 mile race, but the rest of us are going to start walking 2 hours before the race so that when the race starts, we'll be 1/2 a mile ahead. Hey... it's a fair playing field for all of us, too bad you didn't decide to start the race 2 hours ago with the rest of us."

Granted, this analogy is sort of apples-to-oranges, as this isn't a race. But the similarities of that example - that the new contestant would be less enticed to join the race in the first place - are where the real problems lie.

I think, as has been suggested many times before, that the best solution would be to make 1750 retroactive to the character that earned it. This way, a new player won't feel that their time spent gaining 1750 was "wasted".

This may not be a big issue to some, but my playstyle does not equal your playstyle does not equal some new guy's playstyle. I may only be mildly annoyed by "wasting" that time, it may not bother you at all, but I absolutely, positively, GUARANTEE that it ticks some people off to the point that they won't even try the game.

I'll assume you were directing this at people in general, and not at anyone in particular.

There have been many players come and go from this game unfortunately as I feel that the larger the player base the better the game will be. I for one thought the favor ideal was a great incentive when I started playing, to try and achieve and it is part of why I stuck with this game. Before DDO I had jumped accross several MMO's and find this one to be the most unique and desirable to play.

Your whole race analogy is way off base though as it really has nothing to do with this as each new player has the exact same challenge that exits for all of us. I am starting as an example a brand new character on a server I have never played on. Of course this means he is a 28 point build and guess what I am playing with many players that are using their 32 point builds, I can not tell the difference as I contribute just as much if not more to a quest.

If you want to make an example then as you say compare apples to apples. A new person gets a new position after one week on the job he see's another employee that has been with the company for 2 years get promoted. Of course this new person that has had no training or built any skills in the company thinks this is unfair as he should have been considered for this promotion as well.

And yes my sentence was in general about "getting a life" and not directed to anyone individually.

[Strakeln]

but a good friend of mine rolled up a character, the game wasn't for him to be honest and one of the comments he made was about drow and 32-point builds.. he stated he hated that (well what he really said i couldn't say on the forums).. and i know others who think it's stupid. I understand the vets care little of the new players opinions, but we need everyone's subscription we can get, no?

This is an excellent counter-point to his claim that everyone he knows likes the system exactly as it is... it's not at all unreasonable to expect that a large number of the people who had a problem with it aren't here anymore....

[shores11]

Okay, really no point in arguing this here, neither of us have the numbers to back it up. However, if your stance is that your point is more valid because you talk with a lot of people on Khyber, well, you just shot yourself on the foot. Why's that? Simple: because I talk to WAY more people on Khyber than you do. Don't forget what my 2nd account does for a living.

Of note, account-wide rewards are not necessarily bad, they do not necessarily carry inherent penalties to game play. The way this one is set up, it does... and as I've mentioned several times, minor tweaks to the existing system (ex: retroactive application to the char that earned the favor) would remove those inherent penalties altogether.

Denying their existence doesnt' make them go away. I will concede that this is a matter of opinion.

Since your a facts man from your posts I assume you know exactly how many more people you speak with and play with on Khyber. How in the heck would you know that you talk to way more people on Khyber than I do?

This makes your whole point ridiculous when you are making this type of boast.

[sjwalker1973]

I hate to be the naysayer and I'm sure it's been brought up before. This is comming from someone who's been playing the game since pre-release over 3 years ago.

The amount of time playing this game should mean something. Eventually the Favor you earn should unlock things that aren't readily available when first starting out. Drow isn't a core DandD race and therefore should not be available right away. Drow isn't even in the DMG as an expanded racial selection. They're in the MM and other DandD books. Half Orcs and Half Elves are core races in DandD 3.5, Monks are a core class in the PHB. They've implemented prestige classes with the various enhancements that you can buy. That is why the Drow and other things aren't readily available when first starting.

[shores11]

This is an excellent counter-point to his claim that everyone he knows likes the system exactly as it is... it's not at all unreasonable to expect that a large number of the people who had a problem with it aren't here anymore....

I understand that some players will not like the 32 point system as it exists. But then some players don't like the fact that evasion exists only for monks, rogues and tangers either.

My point is this I was a new player at some point and found that the current favor system including the 32 point builds was a great idea and still do.

[Strakeln]

If you want to make an example then as you say compare apples to apples. A new person gets a new position after one week on the job he see's another employee that has been with the company for 2 years get promoted. Of course this new person that has had no training or built any skills in the company thinks this is unfair as he should have been considered for this promotion as well.

Well, that's not quite apples-to-apples either, is it? Here, I'll take your example and try to make it more analogous:

A new person starts working at a company where all the employees are using computers. The new employee is given a pad of paper and a pencil and told that when he reaches productivity level X, he can have a computer as well, although at that point he will have to redo all of his work over again, just to remain on par with his peers. Now, no one uses pencils and paper at this company anymore, but when they started, the company didn't have computers, so at one time they all had to use pencils and paper. Since they had to do that when they started out, they now make any new employees do the same... despite it being bad for the business.