Noob thinks 32 point builds should be for all.

[Deadz]

Again, last night i had about 20+ minutes, with some wife aggro.. which is cool, so i figured, "hey maybe i can find a quest to solo" i read through my logs for a while and had trouble finding one "had to do alot of reading on net to figure out where they were." then.. thought oh i'll play my alt...nope no alt, what's the point if i'm gonna reroll.. i had trouble finding soloable favor "even for 2 points" and felt playing alt was a waste..

On the bright side i enjoyed the game of NHL2k8 i played, crosby had a goal and two assists for the penguins..

adding: trouble finding one for favor.
Now i hear the "a mmo" is not for you calls about to come in, but heck isn't everyone's 15 bucks worth 15 bucks to turbine? Again.. it's the FEELING i get, whether or not it's reality is another thing.. and it's my OPINION ...

[Girevik]

i had trouble finding soloable favor "even for 2 points" and felt playing alt was a waste..

First, I agree with you that 32 pt builds should be for all.

Second, when you are in that situation again, you might find you can advance your kill count in an explorer area. While that won't directly gain you favor, it should be a step to gaining you experience, and eventually levels, which will make you stronger, and more capable of running more difficult quests (either alone or in groups) that in return net you more favor.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

As a founder... [snip] ...I wasn't even given the option to play a single character to 1750 before I created any alts. So I have a hard time feeling bad for new players who do have that option. I'm not huge on grind, and I hate getting 1750 favor, but without a way to convert existing 28-pt builds to 32 I really can't be in favor of giving away 32-pt builds to all new players from the start.

Agreed. If 32 point builds are going to be given to everyone, that sort of necessitates conversion of existing builds to 32 point, which would in turn probably lead to a full respec (since you would have had those extra points from the beginning).

[frugal_gourmet]

I have no problem with 1750 unlocking 32 point builds. As long as there is some way to get that benefit with the character who unlocked it.

[Deadz]

First, I agree with you that 32 pt builds should be for all.

Second, when you are in that situation again, you might find you can advance your kill count in an explorer area. While that won't directly gain you favor, it should be a step to gaining you experience, and eventually levels, which will make you stronger, and more capable of running more difficult quests (either alone or in groups) that in return net you more favor.

Yeah i just started checking out these zones, like 3 barrel cove, but thanks, i kinda forget about that.

[Hafeal]

the 32 pt build was made to offset the advantages that drow got. Without it drow would have been the better choice for quite a few builds. People were complaining that rogues, wizzies and sorcs were all becoming drow (at least if you were one of those that really cared about maximizing your stats). They needed something comparable for the other races and this is what we got.

Trying to equalize the field with tomes is a bad way to do it, because anyone can always get a tome through loot. Perhaps a better way is to give the charcater an option to go to creation screen and reroll into 32pts, keeping all gear, favor and tomes. Just have him visit the trainers to level himself up to where he was before. However, once that kind reroll option is out there, everyone is going to demand it be made available as a respec otion whenever they feel their character is nerfed, regardless of favor.

Good, fair points. Maybe the mistake was making drow 32 pt builds? Make them 28 with the other abilities they already had and allow them to be upgraded to 32 points with any other race once that character reached 1750?

[krud]

Good, fair points. Maybe the mistake was making drow 32 pt builds? Make them 28 with the other abilities they already had and allow them to be upgraded to 32 points with any other race once that character reached 1750?

drow aren't really 32pt builds. You still get only 28pts, but they have three stats that start off at 10, and one at 6. Most others have only one at 10 and one at 6. In some ways it can be better than a 32pt build.

[Deadz]

Good, fair points. Maybe the mistake was making drow 32 pt builds? Make them 28 with the other abilities they already had and allow them to be upgraded to 32 points with any other race once that character reached 1750?

See that was be awesome too.. but it's hard to get 4 extra build points due to scaling stat points, but if you knew in advance that would be different.

[Hafeal]

drow aren't really 32pt builds. You still get only 28pts, but they have three stats that start off at 10, and one at 6. Most others have only one at 10 and one at 6. In some ways it can be better than a 32pt build.

That's right, excellent observation. Still it is a 4 point difference with the 4 points spent for you essentially - still 4 more than you get with the 28, eh?

In the end, in terms of story and game-play, I would think a reward for THAT character is appropriate when you 1750 or whatever Turbine changes it to at some point.

I think another "reward" or "loyalty" system which rewards your ACCOUNT could also be set up - like other retailers or product providers. Thus, even as a casual player, if you subscribe long enough (3 mos., 6 mos., etc) or invite a certain number of other people to join the game, I think ACCOUNT wide benefits, like opening 32 pts, opening them all servers, transfer character credits, etc ... would be appropriate.

[Zenako]

That's right, excellent observation. Still it is a 4 point difference with the 4 points spent for you essentially - still 4 more than you get with the 28, eh?

In the end, in terms of story and game-play, I would think a reward for THAT character is appropriate when you 1750 or whatever Turbine changes it to at some point.

I think another "reward" or "loyalty" system which rewards your ACCOUNT could also be set up - like other retailers or product providers. Thus, even as a casual player, if you subscribe long enough (3 mos., 6 mos., etc) or invite a certain number of other people to join the game, I think ACCOUNT wide benefits, like opening 32 pts, opening them all servers, transfer character credits, etc ... would be appropriate.

But something like your last suggestion would do nothing to address the "its unfair to make me start with gimped characters" arguement that is central to this whole discussion about how it handicaps players who are starting now. The fact everyone STARTED the game with the same options, is not considered by those who want new players to start out with a free boost.

[Deadz]

But something like your last suggestion would do nothing to address the "its unfair to make me start with gimped characters" arguement that is central to this whole discussion about how it handicaps players who are starting now. The fact everyone STARTED the game with the same options, is not considered by those who want new players to start out with a free boost.

Honestly, i don't even think it's unfair, I don't think the characters are really gimped, i think it just creates that illusion....
...which unfortunately is enough of an illusion to turn some off to the game...

[Hafeal]

I thought I addressed that earlier but let me restate it more clearly. At some point you have to draw a line in the sand. No matter where you are - ahead or behind of the line, someone will be unhappy. With anything - favor, gameplay changes, etc...

I just don't subscribe to the "I had to do it so you have to" mentality. Further, changing the mechanic giving 32 point builds really does not affect anyone's gameplay for the worse. The fact that your neighbor may not have had to do the same thing as you to get 32 point builds does not impact your gameplay negatively - in fact, it might help if it makes your fellow players better.

But something like your last suggestion would do nothing to address the "its unfair to make me start with gimped characters" arguement that is central to this whole discussion about how it handicaps players who are starting now. The fact everyone STARTED the game with the same options, is not considered by those who want new players to start out with a free boost.

[Deadz]

I thought I addressed that earlier but let me restate it more clearly. At some point you have to draw a line in the sand. No matter where you are - ahead or behind of the line, someone will be unhappy. With anything - favor, gameplay changes, etc...

I just don't subscribe to the "I had to do it so you have to" mentality. Further, changing the mechanic giving 32 point builds really does not affect anyone's gameplay for the worse. The fact that your neighbor may not have had to do the same thing as you to get 32 point builds does not impact your gameplay negatively - in fact, it might help if it makes your fellow players better.

Exactly

[Arianrhod]

But something like your last suggestion would do nothing to address the "its unfair to make me start with gimped characters" arguement that is central to this whole discussion about how it handicaps players who are starting now. The fact everyone STARTED the game with the same options, is not considered by those who want new players to start out with a free boost.

But the fact is, players who started before 32-point builds existed started in a very different environment from that which exists for new players now. Back then, groups doing low/mid level quests were plentiful, no one expected vorpals/banishers etc. (let alone W/P). The climb from "brand-new" to "average" wasn't as steep yet.

[Zenako]

But the fact is, players who started before 32-point builds existed started in a very different environment from that which exists for new players now. Back then, groups doing low/mid level quests were plentiful, no one expected vorpals/banishers etc. (let alone W/P). The climb from "brand-new" to "average" wasn't as steep yet.

I still see tons of LFMs for low level quests every night. Items have no place in this discussion either, since I do not view them as an issue. It is the rare veteran who does NOT just hand off to new players what used to be considered "uber" gear in days gone by. I know I do all the time as do those I play with.

I guess some of the issue is where one considers "average" to be these days. Not sure how much some of those in this thread run with true new players (not just someone on a new alt), but what a vet might consider vendor trash (or just leave in the chest) is often useful or an upgrade to new players gear. But as I said, gear is not supposed to be part of this discussion.

Now my perception is clearly colored by the fact that I have NEVER been tempted to reroll any of my 28 point characters to redo a character due to having gotten 32 point builds. I think I have 2 32 point builds and neither one is really that dependant on having 32 points (caster focused cleric and fighter who also took a level of cleric).

The climb from brand new to average is only steep if you make it so. Nothing in the game requires you to rush to end game other than self imposed wishes. Much of the early game is actually a lot more fun if you view it as an end in and of itself and not as an obstacle to getting to the endgame raid treadmill.

[Deadz]

I still see tons of LFMs for low level quests every night. Items have no place in this discussion either, since I do not view them as an issue. It is the rare veteran who does NOT just hand off to new players what used to be considered "uber" gear in days gone by. I know I do all the time as do those I play with.

I guess some of the issue is where one considers "average" to be these days. Not sure how much some of those in this thread run with true new players (not just someone on a new alt), but what a vet might consider vendor trash (or just leave in the chest) is often useful or an upgrade to new players gear. But as I said, gear is not supposed to be part of this discussion.

Now my perception is clearly colored by the fact that I have NEVER been tempted to reroll any of my 28 point characters to redo a character due to having gotten 32 point builds. I think I have 2 32 point builds and neither one is really that dependant on having 32 points (caster focused cleric and fighter who also took a level of cleric).

The climb from brand new to average is only steep if you make it so. Nothing in the game requires you to rush to end game other than self imposed wishes. Much of the early game is actually a lot more fun if you view it as an end in and of itself and not as an obstacle to getting to the endgame raid treadmill.

Yeah i see tons of LFM's up as a noob, and as a cleric, well, it's easy as pie getting in quests..

your correct there.

[Aranticus]

That's right, excellent observation. Still it is a 4 point difference with the 4 points spent for you essentially - still 4 more than you get with the 28, eh?

In the end, in terms of story and game-play, I would think a reward for THAT character is appropriate when you 1750 or whatever Turbine changes it to at some point.

I think another "reward" or "loyalty" system which rewards your ACCOUNT could also be set up - like other retailers or product providers. Thus, even as a casual player, if you subscribe long enough (3 mos., 6 mos., etc) or invite a certain number of other people to join the game, I think ACCOUNT wide benefits, like opening 32 pts, opening them all servers, transfer character credits, etc ... would be appropriate.

actually can more than 4 more. try building a drow pally or drow bard and you can see why

[krud]

actually can more than 4 more. try building a drow pally or drow bard and you can see why

yep, in some cases it's more than a 32pt build. I can think of other builds where base 10 in 2 more stats and 28pts is better than 32 pt. - umd sorcerer, umd rogue assassin.

[Zenako]

yep, in some cases it's more than a 32pt build. I can think of other builds where base 10 in 2 more stats and 28pts is better than 32 pt. - umd sorcerer, umd rogue assassin.

Yah my 28 Point Drow Bard Spellsinger...has nice Spellsinger stats...

It is way too easy to forget that one stat point might cost 2 or 3 build points during character creation.

and that the Drow stat mods kick in after base cost, so while you are raising that 18 CHA to 19 your cost is only 3 build points, not 4 like the progression would be for a human (if they even could).

To take a Human to 18 CHA requires 16 Build points (8 starting stat + 1 BP each for 9,10,11,12,13,14, 2 BP each for 15,16 and 3 BP each for 17 and 18.
Takes those same 16 BP for a DROW to hit 20 CHA. (While if they even could it would have taken a Human 24 Build Points to hit 20 in any stat).

Since Drow start with 3 Stats (INT, DEX and CHA) with the same +2 Bonus and only CON with -2, it would be possible to really crank the net benefit a ton. Compared to the mostly even +2/-2 balance for all other racial perks (and the NET -2 for WF), they have some serious starting advantages for any class which relies on those stats.

[Arianrhod]

I still see tons of LFMs for low level quests every night. Items have no place in this discussion either, since I do not view them as an issue. It is the rare veteran who does NOT just hand off to new players what used to be considered "uber" gear in days gone by. I know I do all the time as do those I play with.

I guess some of the issue is where one considers "average" to be these days. Not sure how much some of those in this thread run with true new players (not just someone on a new alt), but what a vet might consider vendor trash (or just leave in the chest) is often useful or an upgrade to new players gear. But as I said, gear is not supposed to be part of this discussion.

Now my perception is clearly colored by the fact that I have NEVER been tempted to reroll any of my 28 point characters to redo a character due to having gotten 32 point builds. I think I have 2 32 point builds and neither one is really that dependant on having 32 points (caster focused cleric and fighter who also took a level of cleric).

The climb from brand new to average is only steep if you make it so. Nothing in the game requires you to rush to end game other than self imposed wishes. Much of the early game is actually a lot more fun if you view it as an end in and of itself and not as an obstacle to getting to the endgame raid treadmill.

All valid points. I'm not trying to claim that new players NEED 32-point builds, only that not having them now is not exactly the same as not having them 2 years ago was. It might be time to get rid of 28-point builds altogether. If not, I'm fine with that. I've done without 32-pointers for 3 years now, I can go on the way things are. I wouldn't feel "punished" or snubbed, though, if things were to change. It's an MMORPG, change is part of the game