Noob thinks 32 point builds should be for all.

[WestiesMA]

My main is my original 28-point build character that I rolled right after beta. Just don't tell anyone that your toons are 28-point builds - they will never know!

[Pyromaniac]

Not having 32 point buy does not gimp your character, or make it hard for a new player to complete quests...

There should be some mechanic to upgrade 28 pointers into 32 pointers, for free.

Exactly what I was thinking. My main character is a 28 point created day one toon. And he's not gimp, in fact he can run with anybody at end game.

Now it would be a nice idea to have your 28 point character change to 32 point once you achieve the favor. And if Turbine was really wanting us to run favor - all toons could be 28 point until they reached say 1000 favor, when they get to go 32 point.

But whatever happens, treat existing 28 point characters fairly, don't leave us as 28 point while giving all new characters 32 point.

[krud]

Where do we go from there? Isn't it obvious? Add more levels and more content. There are already perks for favor. Those are enough.

EDIT: Out of the five people who started the game with me, one of them dropped out after the relatively easy Drow grind. Had we not felt compelled to 'keep up with the Jones' he might still be an active paying subscriber. So in my case, this design decision cost Turbine 20% of their potential income.

You can include any aspect of the game that involves a grind as driving people away. How is the shroud grind or any other raid loot grind any different than the favor grind? I happen to dislike the loot grind much more than the favor grind. I came very close to quitting over the loot grind for much the same reasons your friends quit over the favor grind. Shall we remove all grinds to make everyone happy? We'd all become just as unhappy with the lack of rewards, or anything else to do. At least with the favor grind (if you can still call it much of a grind) you get to experience a large portion of the quests DDO has to offer. All the other grinds just keep returning you to the same place over and over again.

[redoubt]

A few thoughts about 32pt builds and favor (some more related than others):

1. How many new players build their character right the first time? Or for that matter discover that they like something else better?

2. 400 favor gets you drow. Sure, not every build works its best on drow. However, it is a good stepping stone.
2a. Make a character.
2b. Get 400 favor while learning to play the game.
2c. Make a drow character if you want more than 28 build points.
2d. Use this new character to get your 1750. (If its a drow, the tome reward and anything you get while earning your favor are their to stay because there is no reason to reroll a drow once you have the 1750 favor.)

3. 1750, to me anyway, seems just high enough to need to work at it a little, but it is nothing like getting it back at the level 10 cap (I think that was it, maybe it was 12). There are so many quests in game today that you can skip entire regions and still get the favor. For example, my bard skipped the orchard, the desert and most of the necropolis and still got his favor tome (and it was before the new quests in three barrel cove were added.)

4. As others have said, there are a lot of good 28 point builds out there. One guy in my guild has a cleric who is very highly regarded on our server that is a 28pt build. And another guild mate has is original 28pt WF barbarian, when things go bad, he is usually the last one standing.

5. Almost forgot to mention this one. I run favor on all my characters. It provides a lot of diversity in the quests I run. I generally level without repeating very many quest. I run a few on n/h/e and the others I just open direct on elite and move on. Plenty of XP to be had and you run all the quests and not just a few. Granted this is a playstyle preference.

Just a few thoughts, as I said.

[Thanimal]

I'm kind of laughing at so many people saying how easy it is to get 1750 favor. That might be true if you pick one character and stay on it, but if you play games in a experimental style, like both I and (apparently) the OP do, 1750 is waay out there.

In fact, I am perversely glad that it is 1750 not 1000, because 1750 is so obviously out of reach that I don't give 32 points a second thought. I've been playing this game for over 2 years, and I have probably built 30 characters, and the highest favor any of them ever got to was about 900.

I mildly agree with the OP that the game would be a little better with a change, but pesonally my solution would be a little more radical: get rid of 32 point builds. I am really confused about them as a reward, actually. So you've played the game a ton, you're getting really expert at it, and then the game gets EASIER? This would be like the pros playing basketball on a 9 ft hoop. It seems like a totally unfun reward to me. After getting that expert, you need more challenge, not less!

In my opinion, this is fundamentally different from other rewards of advancement, which all make THAT character better. Seeing your character progress and become more powerful is a big part of the fun of this style of game. But the 32-point build is orthogonal to this: in fact it is the aforementioned Easy Button: making the game easier, as opposed to a reward for a particular character's efforts.

Out of curiosity, do some people feel the game has become more fun as a result of 32-point builds being added? Can you tell me why? I know it's hard to explain why something is or isn't more fun, but please try! I think this will be very valuable feedback to Turbine, and I am personally quite curious.

[Borror0]

I mildly agree with the OP that the game would be a little better with a change, but pesonally my solution would be a little more radical: get rid of 32 point builds. I am really confused about them as a reward, actually. So you've played the game a ton, you're getting really expert at it, and then the game gets EASIER?

Apply the same logic to loot. Reword that question and put the word loot instead of 32 point builds.

Does it look logical to you?

The real fix to this problem is to give players a way to upgrade their 28 pointer into a 32 pointer, if possible without having to reroll (since its kinda lame to have to regrind XP for his character, even more if you don't play all that much). It will solve the problem and will keep 1750 as a reward.

After getting that expert, you need more challenge, not less!

Of, sure. People are going to put effort into making their character worse.

Actually, maybe. That's the Turbine way of doing things. You have finally reached 15 BAB? You thought you would deal more DPS? Well, you were wrong!

Out of curiosity, do some people feel the game has become more fun as a result of 32-point builds being added?

Allows you to make wackier and/or more stat dependent builds. That's a major one.

[krud]

i'm just sharing my opinion as a casual player who's as casual as they come..

You have a powergamer mentality with limited play time. A casual gamer wouldn't sweat those 4 build points.

Three accounts and not one character abovel level 6? Getting those extra 4 build points won't change anything. Obsessive rerollers will always be obsessive rerollers. You aren't even reaching the point where those extra build points will really matter. All of a sudden with 32pts you will grind the xp to cap? Grind for loot? Grind for ingredients? Unlikely. All this does is give a temporary reprieve to those who will most likely quit anyway over whatever grind it is they don't like.

Besides, with so many rerolls under 6, how many times have you run the same quests over and over? That is not a grind?

I would be in favor of having total server favor go towards unlocking 32pt builds, and keep tomes as individual favor rewards. You get total server favor for completing quests on any one of your characters. No overlapping favor (i.e. quests only count once toward total server favor, even if you have done the same quest on multiple characters). This way you don't have to grind only one character to get it. You just need to explore the content once with any one of your characters to earn the favor toward 32 builds. This might make it slightly easier on obsessive rerollers and experimenters, yet keep the idea that you must still explore a majority of the content to earn the favor. Of course, an obsessive reroller will complain that they now have multiple toons that need to be rerolled instead of just one.

[Deadz]

It's not about this casual rerolling three accounts --first two are not used its 2 bucks to start over..

my initial opinion is about the illusion it creates not about the gameplay facts. notice the word feel being littered throughout my posts.

note:
typing onehanded while holding my kid is tough but she is lovin g listening to the velvet underground and the who on my comp, what a good kid....

[Deadz]

You have a powergamer mentality with limited play time. A casual gamer wouldn't sweat those 4 build points.

alot of casuals do.. it ain't just me

[Fenrisulven6]

i have a few friends who would come back to this game if this happened, otherwise your first char is just a grind,
1000 favor is much more reasonable.

/signed

Just did this. As a new player, you quickly realize you made mistakes designing the first toon - its rarely in sync with the game mechanics [who would have thought Sneak would be so useless in group play?]

So the goal becomes hitting 1750 favor so you can reroll your prime and begin your stable of 32 point builds. You grind and zerg and don't really get to know the quests. It leads to experiences that I don't think are favorable to retaining an incoming new player pool. For that alone, it should be ditched - all players start with 32 pt builds.

A casual gamer wouldn't sweat those 4 build points.

Maybe you wouldn't. For me, those extra 4 points were needed to turn my trapmonkey into a DPS rogue.

[krud]

alot of casuals do.. it ain't just me

Those two are irreconcilable, because there is always some kind of grind involved in being a powergamer, whether it be favor, xp, or loot. You just happen to dislike one of them. I happen to not like the loot grind. I want to make an uber TWF monk splash, but can't be bothered with the grind for the icy raiments, or a shroud item for that matter. Can I just have one? It's pretty much required if I want him to be the best he can be. It would make the enjoyment of the character so much better. It won't hurt anyone else's enjoyment of the game, and can only increase mine. Since I really dislike the loot grind, and that's all there is left in the game, it will help me stick around and enjoy the game longer. How is that request any different?

[darkrhavyn]

32 point builds have less of an impact on casters than they do on melee. Even a pure barb has to be concerned with at least three stats: Dex for TWF, Con for HP and Rage duration, Str for obvious reasons. Casters need only concern themselves with one stat.

Out of curiosity, what race(s) are Cia and Dari?

Cia and Dari are elves. Riasha is a drow as is Kestryl. I have a Human "batman" that I love who is ..you guessed it.. a 28 pt build. I primarily play elves/drow just because I still have a role playing history for all my characters whether or not I get to actually role play in game.

I think the difference is for me that I build balanced characters in general..Kes is probably the most "min/maxed" character I have...so I guess those four points dont really worry me for most of my builds.

Quite honestly the best DPS character I have ever seen was a 28 pt (there were no 32pt characters then) fighter. He and his wife quit playing after Mod 3 but Mem was amazing...and I would wager that he still would be now since I know the only other 2 dwarves that could ever beat him from time to time still play with those same "gimped" characters.

[Borror0]

All this does is give a temporary reprieve to those who will most likely quit anyway over whatever grind it is they don't like.

That's fallacious. More often than not, a decision to leave is based off multiple factors.

The reasoning that something should be left there because it will only be "a temporary reprieve to those who will most likely quit anyway" could be used for about anything, but gamebreaking bugs and lag. Also, your reasoning assumes that all grind is necessary and that it cannot be lessened in any way AND that the rewards for that grind are perfectly balanced.

[Deadz]

It's the mechanic of having to play x toon to make Y toon better is offputting to new players..

It has 0 benifit.. I have seen people say 28 point builds are just as good as 32 point builds, and it's more the player and the gear, and you know what i 100% AGREE with that..

but it doesn't change the feeling it leaves some new players with

And it doesn't have any benfit to older players..

So, what IS THE POINT?????

Let me add for the 100% time i'm living with the way it is.. i'm enjoying my cleric alot.. it's that i, and alot of other newish players would love to start experimenting with tons of builds, but are left with the FEELING of having to grind to 1750 FIRST to enjoy ALTS is a HORRIBLE mechanic to the game..

Made sense when the game started, as it was a way to make people play through the game twice when there was little content, but by now, the people who have 10 alts are obviously hooked...

People miss one fact about DDO.. there really is no HARDCORE content.. none.. the largest raids are very small by mmo standards, you can see all the content casually.. very easily.. besides building a toon, this is a realtively narrow mmo, there is little itemization, itemization is almost along the lines of a single player game.. hense why they put in the 1750 favor 32 point builds, to try to get people to play through the limited content and gear twice.. but 3 years after release.. it's a moot point, the focus (we have seen w/ NPE) is about keeping people, so it would be a good move to do something else ..

And again, i'll add.. this is all my OPINION from the point of view as a casual player..
All the content in this game is obtainable for the casual and the hardcore, just don't make me play a toon for a few months strait to get to the toon i want to build..

[darkrhavyn]

I have seen a couple of interesting ideas proposed ----I really doubt that the one that would make everyone happy -a respec for old characters and getting to add four points to any character that hits 1750 will not happen....mostly because I think it is a BIG programming hassle and unlikely to occur


But one thing that sounded really doable was the idea of account favor.....once you do a quest on ANY character it counts towards the 1750.....that would definitely cut down on the "grind" aspect that some people perceive while still allowing people to experiment with builds till they found one they liked.

Like Kalari said though....I never really saw 1750 as a "grind"---for me a grind is doing the same thing over and over again....to get 1750 involved doing multiple different quests, not running Guard Jungs badge 8 time and Info is Key 8 times then WW 8 times then STK and tangleroot...move to deleras and SC and Gwylans then threnal then GH.....you get the picture. That powerleveling mentality is a GRIND for me...exploring 3BC and the necropolis (granted I always promise never to go back there lol) or ataraxia is just fun.

Darianna got her 1750 without even realizing it....was I happy for the tome- you bet, but I never intentionally tried to get favor with her.

Someone pointed out that for people who like to reroll or experiment getting 32pts is unlikely to change that...I agree I always have 5 or six babies running around just to see if twiching this stat or that skill will make them differnent to play than the others I have.

Strak...I'm sorry your friend saw 1750 as a grind and quit...but if he thought getting 1750 was a grind....what would he have thought of the Shroud or the DT armor? Doing a variety of quests with one character doesnt seem all that bad in comparison, just my opinion. Hope he gives it another try...maybe you could give him some pointers on builds that would help him make a character he would like.

[Deadz]

Those two are irreconcilable, because there is always some kind of grind involved in being a powergamer, ?

false, all the content for a powergame can be obtained by the casual.. this really isn't a powergamer type of game.. the powergamers just think it is.. hense why the "powergamers" have 8+ capped toons.. I hate to break it to you..

[Aranticus]

/not signed

it is already very easy to level in ddo. in the past few mths i've seen plently of L16s with no hint of skills at all. by giving these people 32 pt is akin to telling them, here you go, a uber build, just slash and nuke. this makes them play with even less intelligence, strategy, empathy

by making people earn the 32 pt will at least let these people learn something

[krud]

false, all the content for a powergame can be obtained by the casual.. this really isn't a powergamer type of game.. the powergamers just think it is.. hense why the "powergamers" have 8+ capped toons.. I hate to break it to you..

All of the favor can be obtained by a casual as well.

[Uproar]

Personally I think overall favor rewards need a little bit of an overhaul

Drow still 400
32pt build 1000
something new at 1750
something new at 2500(when cap increases)


1000 favor points is basically guaranted for anyone who makes it up to lvl 16 these days

QFE -- A plan I could live with.

[Aranticus]

false, all the content for a powergame can be obtained by the casual.. this really isn't a powergamer type of game.. the powergamers just think it is.. hense why the "powergamers" have 8+ capped toons.. I hate to break it to you..

wrong. the factor here is time. a casual can take months to make a mineral 2. my latest fighter took 6 runs to have a min2 and triple air goggles made. thats 2.5 weeks. u wanted the 32 pt but is not willing to put the time in for it. i bet you will grind some raids for loot. if so, i dun see how you cant do it for favor. i suspect your mentality is loot > favor