Noob thinks 32 point builds should be for all.

[Strakeln]

Since your a facts man from your posts I assume you know exactly how many more people you speak with and play with on Khyber. How in the heck would you know that you talk to way more people on Khyber than I do?

This makes your whole point ridiculous when you are making this type of boast.

Actually, it makes your point ridiculous. Remember, I'm responding to your argument that you "talk to a lot of people" who think 1750 is good as it is. I think that's BS, but if you think knowing a lot of people will prove your point, then fine... I talk with and know more people. That's not a boast, that's fact... I'm Qwijy, dude. Do you really want to try and say that you talk to more people than the guy who parks next to a mailbox and sells scrolls all night?

I'm glad you've recognized the silliness of your proof, though.

[Strakeln]

Yeah, I think Turbine should think this through and ask itself: does the 32 point build unlocking via 1750 favor grinding constitute a barrier to entry into the game for a significant portion of new players? If so, it could be a good idea to get rid of this... Personnally, I think that as the game progresses, levels unlock, and we get new uber quests and raids that almost require full tweaked toons full of raid loot and greensteel equipment, new players are going to look at this and say: "what? I am so far behind compared to the veterans of this game, and I got to first spend all this time on a toon just to unlock 32 points build? Is this a joke?"

That's what I'd say as a new player.

[Fenrisulven6]

However, anyone who can really tweak any character to actually benefit in gameplay from those few build points, should not be playing any "gimpy" character anyway. They will obviously know enough about the game to be sweating the details on any build, not just tossing together a "gimp" for favor.

Nope. I'm a vet D&D player who understands the game mechanics. As a new player to DDO, my first toon [rogue] splashed 3 levels of mage to be able to buff the party with 2nd level spells. How could I have known that House P already has that market cornered? Waste of 3 levels I could have used for DPS instead. And as a newbie, how could I know that a nonconventional build would handicap my ability to join groups and play the game? Besides, every vet here will advise new players not to fall in love with their first toon - "you'll want to reroll after you learn the differences in DDO".

anyone who can really tweak any character to actually benefit in gameplay from those few build points

Shrug. I look at those extra points as insurance against newbie build errors, not tweaks.

One can build perfectly fine end game characters with 28, play them to cap and favor and never feel or notice those few build points. If having 12 DVs vs 13 DVs makes or breaks a character for you, then one has some perception problems.

Perception is reality. New players frequent the build forums and quickly see the distinction - Vet: "Oh, that build is based on 32, if you're a 28 you can try to make it by scrapping x and y, but I would go with a lesser build instead".

I also don't get the contradictary arguments against opening up 32pts: "its easy to do in no time" VS "we had to sweat blood to earn it, so should you". Which is it?

[Zenako]

A point that will help here hopefully.

Advocates of both sides often taint their posts with exagerations to make it seem like they speak for the majority. It can be a subtle and unintended choice of words, but someone on your side of the discussion will just nod and agree and someone on the other side will pick up on those specific adjectives and focus on rebutting that aspect of the arguement.

Case in point. (slightly paraphrased)

Statement A: "A significant portion of new players view 32 point as a barrier to entry"

Statement B: "Some portion of the new players view 32 point as a barrier to entry"

I would postulate that virtually no one would disagree with Statement B, while many would view the adjective signficant in Statement A to be inferring most, and that many would take issue with that assertion. One word, changes the focus of the statement. An advocate of Statement A would most likely be focused on the importance of the second part of the statement and find it hard to understand how others could not see this issue. While a critic would be focused on the adjective and trying to put the issue into context for them, where they do not see the issue having as broad a reach or impact on the player base.

[Uska]

Worse, you won't be playing the game - you'll be hunting for elite favor LFMs, zerging with vets [usually on a really gimpy build], won't see much of the quest unless you have a max striding item, and everything devolves into reaching 1750 so you can start your stable of characters and begin enjoying the game. Except that you've spoiled the novelty of the game on your first run, its no longer a fresh experience. Not conducive to retaining new players.

Just went through this. Wasn't much fun. Wouldn't have stuck around if I didn't already have a strong affinity for D&D.

Umm I started on a new server without twinking or transfering a character still dont have 32pts there and not suffering a bit and I know what 32pts builds are like I am earning favor as it comes and I play my 28pters and my drow that I earned recently and have no problems just like any new player to my server would you only miss out if your some whiner have to be the top bunny which you wont even with 32pt builds because you still wont have the gear, if your stupid and ruin the content just to have a few points then you wont stick around long even if you start with them I mean get real.

[Zenako]

Nope. I'm a vet D&D player who understands the game mechanics. As a new player to DDO, my first toon [rogue] splashed 3 levels of mage to be able to buff the party with 2nd level spells. How could I have known that House P already has that market cornered? Waste of 3 levels I could have used for DPS instead. And as a newbie, how could I know that a nonconventional build would handicap my ability to join groups and play the game? Besides, every vet here will advise new players not to fall in love with their first toon - "you'll want to reroll after you learn the differences in DDO".

mmm, house P has those buffs covered IF you run enough of the House P FAVOR quests to get them, but I thought point was to NOT have to run for favor....

In my view anyone who had recent D&D experience should be able to anticipate the general pros and cons of multiclass builds. (If your only exposure was 1.0 or that vintage D&D, that would be another story.) Multiclass builds are frontloaded, at the expense of high end spells or abilities. Caster multiclasses have significant tradeoffs in D&D and in DDO. Not much of a strech in my experience.

Better question, did you have fun playing your Rogue/caster and being very versatile and useful to the party? Is this not a game we play to have fun? If so, I don't see the downside. We have 10 slots to create characters these days. Some for fun, some for specific uber builds, some for helping friends out, whatever...

[Uska]

Nope. I'm a vet D&D player who understands the game mechanics. As a new player to DDO, my first toon [rogue] splashed 3 levels of mage to be able to buff the party with 2nd level spells. How could I have known that House P already has that market cornered? Waste of 3 levels I could have used for DPS instead. And as a newbie, how could I know that a nonconventional build would handicap my ability to join groups and play the game? Besides, every vet here will advise new players not to fall in love with their first toon - "you'll want to reroll after you learn the differences in DDO".



Shrug. I look at those extra points as insurance against newbie build errors, not tweaks.



Perception is reality. New players frequent the build forums and quickly see the distinction - Vet: "Oh, that build is based on 32, if you're a 28 you can try to make it by scrapping x and y, but I would go with a lesser build instead".I also don't get the contradictary arguments against opening up 32pts: "its easy to do in no time" VS "we had to sweat blood to earn it, so should you". Which is it?

Unless they cant read new players realize they cant make 99% of those builds even with 32builds as they like the 4-6 2pt tomes and uber gear to twink at every level

[Fenrisulven6]

How does it negatively affect me? Noobs running around at first level with 32 pt builds...who haven't even learned the proper way to play their characters and just either try to zerg their way through or power level without learning the game.

But they're already doing precisely that for the sole reason of reaching 1750. I just did it, and would be hard pressed to remember any quest names, much less find my around the ones I favor-leveled. And why would I want to roll up a bunch of 28pt builds when the standard is 32?

Thats what the current 1750 system favours - zerg asap to unlock 32pt builds so you can start building your stable of toons and begin enjoying the game.

[Fenrisulven6]

mmm, house P has those buffs covered IF you run enough of the House P FAVOR quests to get them. but I thought point was to NOT have to run for favor

75 favor vs 1750. And the 75 is picked up on 2nd-6th lvl quests. And acquiring House P buffs is not a prerequisite for building standard toons. Apple and oranges.

[Fenrisulven6]

Umm I started on a new server without twinking or transfering a character still dont have 32pts there and not suffering a bit and I know what 32pts builds are like

Right, you've already played 32pt builds. You are not new to the game. Not a new player.

I am earning favor as it comes and I play my 28pters and my drow that I earned recently and have no problems just like any new player to my server would you only miss out if your some whiner have to be the top bunny which you wont even with 32pt builds because you still wont have the gear, if your stupid and ruin the content just to have a few points then you wont stick around long even if you start with them I mean get real.

You agree that the current system encourages new players to ruin the gaming experience and content as they zerg to unlock the standard 32 point build.

Thanks.

[Emili]

My opinion on this is that they should just open up the 32 point build at start up.

In my sig are 5 nearly favor capped girls (they were favor capped prior to last two mods) maybe 2-3 quests from favor caps as now, and four others are well into 2600 favor ... just the rogue and monk I have who I consider on the low end end of favor at about 1600 and 1200 I believe... yes, I used to run chasing favor caps... not with just one girl but my goal used to be all of them... I've relaxed over sometime because imo, it's just best to let things happen over course of time rather then add more grinding to a system already bent on grinding...

Do you remember when 1750 reward was introduced? At that time it truely was a grind as it entailed getting nearly every quest in the game on elite... the favor cap was just away by 2-3 quests... plus our level cap was 12? Thus the achievemant of 1750 back then was significantly greater then what it is today... fact is before you know it you're stairing down 1750 mark without even striving for it. It's no significant watermark like it was. Thus to a power gamer is just insignificant after the first toon gets it... and typically not even sought after by them anymore. +2 tomes are pretty common and many house favor perks even are little insentive anymore... cl, K and possibly D add long lasting benefit then after that the rest are minute to a capped character.

So then back to 32 points... the only thing this really serves as is a deterent to the casual player and the new player. While 32 points does not grant some player the ability to create some gawdly character... it does indeed allow them to create a better build... people will argue 4 build points means nothing... but 4 build points is the difference between a slightly stronger twf, or CE on a strength pally or a few hp on a sorc, 4 points allow a decent splash or multiclass ... if 4 build points meant little to nothing then +2 and +3 tomes would be worth little also... It's the name of the game a +1 mod does make a difference in a game based on a d20 ... it's 5-10% no matter how you look at it... it's the difference between a DPS build taking CE or a AC build doing a tad more DPS ... it's the difference between a caster having 20-40 more hp by lvl 20 or not... It's up to 10% difference no matter how you look at it.

Ok, here's the thing... we get a newbie guildie, so guess what? I and other vets end up rerunning all these bloody quests for favor for the new guy... why? because he's our friend and he would like to play on our level... build the builds we do... and how does he get there? Simple he grinds... but not only does he grind - we - the vets - who already ran these quests 100's of time for our favor and the other guys favor and yes the new guys favor and soon to be the next new guys favor... It bloody never stops.

The 32 point build reward is a grind... and not just a grind for newbies - which discourages them... but a grind for vets who would much rather be grinding for loot in the level 17 raid but because of a friend grind for his favor also. There are enough of grinds as is ... removing one will retain some people I believe.

[Deadz]

Umm I started on a new server without twinking or transfering a character still dont have 32pts there and not suffering a bit and I know what 32pts builds are like I am earning favor as it comes and I play my 28pters and my drow that I earned recently and have no problems just like any new player to my server would you only miss out if your some whiner have to be the top bunny which you wont even with 32pt builds because you still wont have the gear, if your stupid and ruin the content just to have a few points then you wont stick around long even if you start with them I mean get real.

Sigh.. there goes uska calling people whiners again.. i've personally had enough of your namecalling. How do i report someone? lol

[Fenrisulven6]

Excellent points Emili. I wanted to post something similar about how the 4pts facilitated my reroll from a stealth trap monkey into a DPS rogue, but your's is better:

people will argue 4 build points means nothing... but 4 build points is the difference between a slightly stronger twf, or CE on a strength pally or a few hp on a sorc, 4 points allow a decent splash or multiclass ... if 4 build points meant little to nothing then +2 and +3 tomes would be worth little also... It's the name of the game a +1 mod does make a difference in a game based on a d20 ... it's 5-10% no matter how you look at it... it's the difference between a DPS build taking CE or a AC build doing a tad more DPS ... it's the difference between a caster having 20-40 more hp by lvl 10 or not... It's up to 10% difference no matter how you look at it.

It seems counter-intuitive. Turbine invests all this time and energy into a new player area & new content, but leaves in place a mechanism that encourages [and teaches] new players to blow through all content to "start" the game.

[darkrhavyn]

Ive seen alot of very intelligent posts in this thread- on boths sides of the argument.

I tried to articulate why I thought openignup 32pt builds initially wasnt a good idea, but probably didnt do a great job.

After who knows how many pages, I can see the point that Deadz has about new players feeling like they start out limited but I really dont see a fair solution to everyone- new players and old.

I truly feel that there is VALUE to having to acquire 1750 favor...but the way that it is frequently done defeats that purpose...zerging through a quest with someone far above your level who opened it on elite doesnt help new players learn how to PLAY their characters well.

I still feel that the idea that a 28pt character is somehow useless is WRONG. People say that new players look at the forums and the builds on here and get the idea that the standard is 32 pt builds. I dont agree with that. The builds on the forums are uber elite builds....multiple +2 and or +3 tomes, multiple Shroud items, raid loot galore....opening 32 pt builds at outset isnt going to let a player build those characters....grinding is where those builds come from.

Hells Bells, I have 32 pt favor on multiple servers and I wont even try alot of those builds because they all call for stuff there is no freaking way Im going to farm forever to get just to have a +42 to hit vs a +40 or 2300 sp vs 2200 sp.

In the end, I always come back to this...if that +1 really matters all that much to you when person after person has said that functionally it doesnt make a difference even at endgame, you are the kind of person who will grind forever to get that chattering ring, etc etc so how is asking you to play the game and do the quests that onerous?

I havent played another MMO beyond entry levels of a few (got bored with the go here kill 10 cats, bring me their tails), but I wouldnt expect to start a MMO as a new player and immediately get all the perks that players who've been playing for 3 years have acquired.
I would expect to have to level my character and do all those beginning quests that they had to do when they started.
I would expect the vets to be more powerful and have better weapons etc. And honestly, if in said new game, I was told that after I had experienced a significant portion of the game experience and completed specific challenges I would get access to a more powerful race (Drow) or eventually more powerful versions of the core races, I would look at that as a prize...not a handicap that I didnt get to start out there.

But I'm all about playing and having fun...now about having the biggest....well you get the picture

[Suzaku]

Excellent points Emili. I wanted to post something similar about how the 4pts facilitated my reroll from a stealth trap monkey into a DPS rogue, but your's is better:



It seems counter-intuitive. Turbine invests all this time and energy into a new player area & new content, but leaves in place a mechanism that encourages [and teaches] new players to blow through all content to "start" the game.

and the people advocating for it to stay want to keep it as hazing mechanism because they did it too.

[Suzaku]

Ive seen alot of very intelligent posts in this thread- on boths sides of the argument.

I tried to articulate why I thought openignup 32pt builds initially wasnt a good idea, but probably didnt do a great job.

After who knows how many pages, I can see the point that Deadz has about new players feeling like they start out limited but I really dont see a fair solution to everyone- new players and old.

I truly feel that there is VALUE to having to acquire 1750 favor...but the way that it is frequently done defeats that purpose...zerging through a quest with someone far above your level who opened it on elite doesnt help new players learn how to PLAY their characters well.

I still feel that the idea that a 28pt character is somehow useless is WRONG. People say that new players look at the forums and the builds on here and get the idea that the standard is 32 pt builds. I dont agree with that. The builds on the forums are uber elite builds....multiple +2 and or +3 tomes, multiple Shroud items, raid loot galore....opening 32 pt builds at outset isnt going to let a player build those characters....grinding is where those builds come from.

Hells Bells, I have 32 pt favor on multiple servers and I wont even try alot of those builds because they all call for stuff there is no freaking way Im going to farm forever to get just to have a +42 to hit vs a +40 or 2300 sp vs 2200 sp.

In the end, I always come back to this...if that +1 really matters all that much to you when person after person has said that functionally it doesnt make a difference even at endgame, you are the kind of person who will grind forever to get that chattering ring, etc etc so how is asking you to play the game and do the quests that onerous?

I havent played another MMO beyond entry levels of a few (got bored with the go here kill 10 cats, bring me their tails), but I wouldnt expect to start a MMO as a new player and immediately get all the perks that players who've been playing for 3 years have acquired.
I would expect to have to level my character and do all those beginning quests that they had to do when they started.
I would expect the vets to be more powerful and have better weapons etc. And honestly, if in said new game, I was told that after I had experienced a significant portion of the game experience and completed specific challenges I would get access to a more powerful race (Drow) or eventually more powerful versions of the core races, I would look at that as a prize...not a handicap that I didnt get to start out there.

But I'm all about playing and having fun...now about having the biggest....well you get the picture

Except all these (except Int tome) can be acquired over time and eventually the two would be equal. However in the case if 28 builds you'll never be equal to a 32 build and thus it's nerfed. There is no way a 28 build could match a 32 build if both spent equal amount of effort to tweak their character.

[Strakeln]

Sigh.. there goes uska calling people whiners again.. i've personally had enough of your namecalling. How do i report someone? lol

Yeah, really, Uska, cut it out. If you can't discuss this in a civil manner, then don't discuss it.

[Uska]

Yeah, really, Uska, cut it out. If you can't discuss this in a civil manner, then don't discuss it.

deadz wasnt be civil himself and you guys cant see any point but your own its why deadz is on ignore you sometimes will see other points he wont. and I never called any directly a whiner even though a lot are. and I will discuss what I what and where dont like it put me on ignore I am not violating any rules

[Uska]

and the people advocating for it to stay want to keep it as hazing mechanism because they did it too.

NO I think it gives people a goal and its a good thing to have and I have moved to a new server where I am doing it allover again without crying about it.

[Uska]

My opinion on this is that they should just open up the 32 point build at start up.

In my sig are 5 nearly favor capped girls (they were favor capped prior to last two mods) maybe 2-3 quests from favor caps as now, and four others are well into 2600 favor ... just the rogue and monk I have who I consider on the low end end of favor at about 1600 and 1200 I believe... yes, I used to run chasing favor caps... not with just one girl but my goal used to be all of them... I've relaxed over sometime because imo, it's just best to let things happen over course of time rather then add more grinding to a system already bent on grinding...

Do you remember when 1750 reward was introduced? At that time it truely was a grind as it entailed getting nearly every quest in the game on elite... the favor cap was just away by 2-3 quests... plus our level cap was 12? Thus the achievemant of 1750 back then was significantly greater then what it is today... fact is before you know it you're stairing down 1750 mark without even striving for it. It's no significant watermark like it was. Thus to a power gamer is just insignificant after the first toon gets it... and typically not even sought after by them anymore. +2 tomes are pretty common and many house favor perks even are little insentive anymore... cl, K and possibly D add long lasting benefit then after that the rest are minute to a capped character.

So then back to 32 points... the only thing this really serves as is a deterent to the casual player and the new player. While 32 points does not grant some player the ability to create some gawdly character... it does indeed allow them to create a better build... people will argue 4 build points means nothing... but 4 build points is the difference between a slightly stronger twf, or CE on a strength pally or a few hp on a sorc, 4 points allow a decent splash or multiclass ... if 4 build points meant little to nothing then +2 and +3 tomes would be worth little also... It's the name of the game a +1 mod does make a difference in a game based on a d20 ... it's 5-10% no matter how you look at it... it's the difference between a DPS build taking CE or a AC build doing a tad more DPS ... it's the difference between a caster having 20-40 more hp by lvl 10 or not... It's up to 10% difference no matter how you look at it.

Ok, here's the thing... we get a newbie guildie, so guess what? I and other vets end up rerunning all these bloody quests for favor for the new guy... why? because he's our friend and he would like to play on our level... build the builds we do... and how does he get there? Simple he grinds... but not only does he grind - we - the vets - who already ran these quests 100's of time for our favor and the other guys favor and yes the new guys favor and soon to be the next new guys favor... It bloody never stops.

The 32 point build reward is a grind... and not just a grind for newbies - which discourages them... but a grind for vets who would much rather be grinding for loot in the level 17 raid but because of a friend grind for his favor also. There are enough of grinds as is ... removing one will retain some people I believe.

I think it will lead to quicker burn out. they still cant build those builds they dont have the tomes. the two sides will never ever agree and thats pretty clear