Noob thinks 32 point builds should be for all.

[sjwalker1973]

Kirwin, my cleric is my original toon started 3 years ago. 28pt build cleric. Can hold his own.

[Zenako]

And that's a fairly valid point, but there's some big holes in it:

1. I ground out 1750 something like 2.5 years ago. Haven't done it ever again since. During that time, you'd see 2-4 favor LFMs almost any time you logged on. Not so anymore, 95% of us have the favor, so that benefit has been severely reduced, almost to the point of negligibility.
2. Less popular quests are that way for a reason: compared to the popular quests, the less popular ones result in a less reward per unit effort. An example is the Pit: was almost NEVER run except for favor... until they cranked the XP to match the effort. Now it is a very popular quest while leveling up. Everyone knows that fixing the root cause of the problem (in this case, mismatched XP/Loot : effort ratio) is a better solution than trying to mask it (1750 carrot).
3. If the true objective of the favor system is to encourage running less popular quests, you'd think they'd make it per-character, not per-account.

Well my first to 1750 was quite a while back, but I have 3 more comfortably over that benchmark, and 5 more (non capped characters) between 1000 and 1500 working on hitting that goal as well. I have hopes for someday to hit it "all" with one of the characters. (Main cleric sits around 2300 now and was the first to 1750 for me).

Do I need the favor...nah. Is it a motivator to run other quests, absolutely for me. Does the 32 point option do anything for me...not at all since I am character capped/over and cannot create new ones on that account on my main server anyway.

[sjwalker1973]

I understand, in fact, all you have in this game is earned through how much you play and luck.. that's how mmo's work, skill is very little of the equation to what you get. We all know players who we "think" stink at the game who are greatly equipt and have finished all the content, cause they have time on there hands..

on the other hand, i will challange you to answer the same question as shores.. how would this negatively impact you?

How does it negatively affect me? Noobs running around at first level with 32 pt builds. Even temporary accounts or plat farmers. All that time spent on our toons and builds once we've unlocked certain aspects of the game for naught, given to others who haven't even learned the proper way to play their characters and just either try to zerg their way through or power level without learning the game. I have a somewhat advantage from the start considering I've playd DandD in some form since the original Box set of AD and D (paperbacks not hard cover 2nd edition). I know how to build and plan toons. Learn the game. The only thing 32pt build will give u is possibly an additional +2 to a prime stat or +1 to two stats. You won't notice the difference until MUCH later in the game and not starting out. So it would be completely pointless for you to have it.

[Strakeln]

Well my first to 1750 was quite a while back, but I have 3 more comfortably over that benchmark, and 5 more (non capped characters) between 1000 and 1500 working on hitting that goal as well. I have hopes for someday to hit it "all" with one of the characters. (Main cleric sits around 2300 now and was the first to 1750 for me).

Do I need the favor...nah. Is it a motivator to run other quests, absolutely for me. Does the 32 point option do anything for me...not at all since I am character capped/over and cannot create new ones on that account on my main server anyway.

Interesting. So what you're saying is, you don't actually need the 32-point carrot to continue running the less popular quests.

It sounds to me like you just invalidated your own argument about how changing this would impact your gaming. Removing the 32-point reward wouldn't stop you from running favor... why do you assume that it would stop everyone else who hasn't already stopped?

[Zenako]

Interesting. So what you're saying is, you don't actually need the 32-point carrot to continue running the less popular quests.

It sounds to me like you just invalidated your own argument about how changing this would impact your gaming. Removing the 32-point reward wouldn't stop you from running favor... why do you assume that it would stop everyone else who hasn't already stopped?

I also have never rerolled any character from a 28 point to a 32 point build either, even when I had the opportunity to do so. I did not see the point of sweating a 5% difference, which is about all it amounts to. I know that for some players it is extremely important to their enjoyment and they have said so many many times in many forums. I find that for myself and many others, it does not matter. Back when I hit 1750, the +2 tome WAS the THE driver. Level Cap had just gone to 12 IIRC.

For me I do not need that carrot, but then I also run most explorer areas to exhaustion just to see the [completed] note after the Slayer quest as well. I attempt to run hard quests solo and might fail ten times in a row, and consider that a fun evening. What I personally consider fun, I know does not match many others ideas of fun, many of whom cannot seem to accept failure in any fashion.

That being said, recall that the 1750 ALSO gave another character slot at the time, and THAT served as a significant motivation as well, but I have not seen that mentioned in this thread at all. (As it turned out the code ended up giving more slots for each character, as well.)

Not sure how it invalidates the premise however. 1750 served as a target, a goal to shoot for. It gave specific boon to the character on your account that hit the favor, the tome, and it gave your account two boons, another slot and 32 point builds instead of 28 point builds. The extra slot did nothing for that character to make it better, just like the 32 point build option did not affect the character who opened that feature on your account. (By the same token hitting 400 favor does not convert your current character into a drow either.)

I personally feel that the premise of the current system is fine as is. That removing one of the few remaining goals that matter to some, would be an overall detriment to the game. Sure it might discourage or turn off some players (we have differing opinions on how many), but removing it might also discourage some players who would then burn out faster and claim that there is nothing to do in the game. I think the Jedi analogy some made from SWG has some merit here. Make those special builds too easy to get and it just cheapens the result and diminishes the accomplishment.

[Strakeln]

I also have never rerolled any character from a 28 point to a 32 point build either, even when I had the opportunity to do so. I did not see the point of sweating a 5% difference, which is about all it amounts to. I know that for some players it is extremely important to their enjoyment and they have said so many many times in many forums. I find that for myself and many others, it does not matter. Back when I hit 1750, the +2 tome WAS the THE driver. Level Cap had just gone to 12 IIRC.

For me I do not need that carrot, but then I also run most explorer areas to exhaustion just to see the [completed] note after the Slayer quest as well. I attempt to run hard quests solo and might fail ten times in a row, and consider that a fun evening. What I personally consider fun, I know does not match many others ideas of fun, many of whom cannot seem to accept failure in any fashion.

That being said, recall that the 1750 ALSO gave another character slot at the time, and THAT served as a significant motivation as well, but I have not seen that mentioned in this thread at all. (As it turned out the code ended up giving more slots for each character, as well.)

Not sure how it invalidates the premise however. 1750 served as a target, a goal to shoot for. It gave specific boon to the character on your account that hit the favor, the tome, and it gave your account two boons, another slot and 32 point builds instead of 28 point builds. The extra slot did nothing for that character to make it better, just like the 32 point build option did not affect the character who opened that feature on your account. (By the same token hitting 400 favor does not convert your current character into a drow either.)

I personally feel that the premise of the current system is fine as is. That removing one of the few remaining goals that matter to some, would be an overall detriment to the game. Sure it might discourage or turn off some players (we have differing opinions on how many), but removing it might also discourage some players who would then burn out faster and claim that there is nothing to do in the game. I think the Jedi analogy some made from SWG has some merit here. Make those special builds too easy to get and it just cheapens the result and diminishes the accomplishment.

Good points.

Your example of an extra character slot at 1750 is an example of an account-wide reward that I could get behind. I wonder if that in itself would be enough of a carrot.

BTW, I think I've been confusing you and shores11, you both have the same avatar. So if any of my responses seem a bit off or attribute something to one of you that doesn't seem right, that may have been why

[Zenako]

Good points.

Your example of an extra character slot at 1750 is an example of an account-wide reward that I could get behind. I wonder if that in itself would be enough of a carrot.

BTW, I think I've been confusing you and shores11, you both have the same avatar. So if any of my responses seem a bit off or attribute something to one of you that doesn't seem right, that may have been why

Yah, shores11 and I have the same avatar and I sometimes start reading something and relize it was not my post as I start to hit the edit button. It seems we share some similar opinions at times too, which further lends to the potential confusion. No problems. (But I refuse to use a valentines day mongrel avatar...ick)

[apacheizm23]

Dude get your favor & .... Up..No I didn't bother reading most of it as I just got about halfway and I don't feel sorry for you.. Your not the only one with a family or a Life. I cant stand people who whine..1750 Favor is nothing now and it is very easy too get.. Its a game and everything shouldn't be handed to you...
There outta be more things like this in the game that way people have something too do,if they want to make a better character with a few more points to add at creation then work/play for it,If you want a certain item in a raid or quest then flag or reach a certain level for it, if thats what it takes.
What you want to just Log in and have a Level 20 Rogue all tweaked out and with unlimited feats and Abilities etc. without even earning it!! please...I wouldn't dout if its some other underlying problem that maybe has you talking jack,,who knows maybe U cant even do WW without dieing 10 times. Sit Down N...B

[Deadz]

I didn't bother reading most of it ..

Pretty obvious

What you want to just Log in and have a Level 20 Rogue all tweaked out and with unlimited feats and Abilities etc. without even earning it!! please..

Lol noone is asking for that.. it's rediculous to even say that...

.

wouldn't dout if its some other underlying problem that maybe has you talking jack,,who knows maybe U cant even do WW without dieing 10 times. Sit Down N...B

Lol your the one talking jack kiddo.. pretty childish.

[apacheizm23]

No problem.. And if I came out a bit harshly then pardon me. I just don't think we should all start with the same stats or abilities etc. The 1750 Favor is there for a reason,and its a good one.

[Suzaku]

No problem.. And if I came out a bit harshly then pardon me. I just don't think we should all start with the same stats or abilities etc. The 1750 Favor is there for a reason,and its a good one.

What is the reason? So you can feel superior to new and returning players? To discourage new players from joining or returning? To waste bind equipment and favor acquiring for an inferior character?


How would you feel if your class is nerfed and every character you roll is also nerfed with the exception of class and race you don't like but majority of the people around you are not nerfed. That is what a 28 build is...

[Uska]

What is the reason? So you can feel superior to new and returning players? To discourage new players from joining or returning? To waste bind equipment and favor acquiring for an inferior character?


How would you feel if your class is nerfed and every character you roll is also nerfed with the exception of class and race you don't like but majority of the people around you are not nerfed. That is what a 28 build is...

28pt builds arent nerfed I still play my very first character from 3 years ago and he isnt nerfed and no he isnt weighed down my greensteel and raid loot. I wish people would just quit saying that as it is total baloney.

[Fenrisulven6]

"Welcome to DDO, where new players are handicapped. In order to remove this handicap and even out the playing field, you must play the game for a couple months then start over again"

Worse, you won't be playing the game - you'll be hunting for elite favor LFMs, zerging with vets [usually on a really gimpy build], won't see much of the quest unless you have a max striding item, and everything devolves into reaching 1750 so you can start your stable of characters and begin enjoying the game. Except that you've spoiled the novelty of the game on your first run, its no longer a fresh experience. Not conducive to retaining new players.

Just went through this. Wasn't much fun. Wouldn't have stuck around if I didn't already have a strong affinity for D&D.

[Fenrisulven6]

Sit Down N...B

Go pound sand, you little insecure wretch.

And get something to treat that SPS. Maybe implants.

[Zenako]

What is the reason? So you can feel superior to new and returning players? To discourage new players from joining or returning? To waste bind equipment and favor acquiring for an inferior character?


How would you feel if your class is nerfed and every character you roll is also nerfed with the exception of class and race you don't like but majority of the people around you are not nerfed. That is what a 28 build is...

Well hopefully for you the birds will be chirping, the sun will rise and all will be wonderful with the game for you once you hit that obsessive milestone you feel you need to "start to play the game".

Funny thing thou, the grass will really not be all that much greener, the world will not suddenly be an "easy" button. You will not suddenly be transformed into a skilled player. If you can't mario jump worth a **** with a 28 point build, you still won't be able to mario jump worth a **** with a 32 point build.

Does it (32 vs 28) make any difference, sure, only a complete fool would deny that, but the amount of difference it makes is overshadowed by the gear one can get and your luck along the way.

I really have a hard time understanding the obsession some players have with it, and how it seems to completely make or break the "game" for them.

[Deadz]

Worse, you won't be playing the game - you'll be hunting for elite favor LFMs, zerging with vets [usually on a really gimpy build], won't see much of the quest unless you have a max striding item, and everything devolves into reaching 1750 so you can start your stable of characters and begin enjoying the game. Except that you've spoiled the novelty of the game on your first run, its no longer a fresh experience. Not conducive to retaining new players.

Just went through this. Wasn't much fun. Wouldn't have stuck around if I didn't already have a strong affinity for D&D.

Yeah that's exactly what i'm going through, and why it's taking me a 3rd try to stick around. Having fun now, found a great guild of people atleast. Well not exactly, but similar.

[Zenako]

Worse, you won't be playing the game - you'll be hunting for elite favor LFMs, zerging with vets [usually on a really gimpy build], won't see much of the quest unless you have a max striding item, and everything devolves into reaching 1750 so you can start your stable of characters and begin enjoying the game. Except that you've spoiled the novelty of the game on your first run, its no longer a fresh experience. Not conducive to retaining new players.

Just went through this. Wasn't much fun. Wouldn't have stuck around if I didn't already have a strong affinity for D&D.

However, anyone who can really tweak any character to actually benefit in gameplay from those few build points, should not be playing any "gimpy" character anyway. They will obviously know enough about the game to be sweating the details on any build, not just tossing together a "gimp" for favor. One can build perfectly fine end game characters with 28, play them to cap and favor and never feel or notice those few build points. If having 12 DVs vs 13 DVs makes or breaks a character for you, then one has some perception problems.

[doppleganger]

This is an excellent counter-point to his claim that everyone he knows likes the system exactly as it is... it's not at all unreasonable to expect that a large number of the people who had a problem with it aren't here anymore....

Yeah, I think Turbine should think this through and ask itself: does the 32 point build unlocking via 1750 favor grinding constitute a barrier to entry into the game for a significant portion of new players? If so, it could be a good idea to get rid of this... Personnally, I think that as the game progresses, levels unlock, and we get new uber quests and raids that almost require full tweaked toons full of raid loot and greensteel equipment, new players are going to look at this and say: "what? I am so far behind compared to the veterans of this game, and I got to first spend all this time on a toon just to unlock 32 points build? Is this a joke?"

[Strakeln]

Worse, you won't be playing the game - you'll be hunting for elite favor LFMs, zerging with vets [usually on a really gimpy build], won't see much of the quest unless you have a max striding item, and everything devolves into reaching 1750 so you can start your stable of characters and begin enjoying the game. Except that you've spoiled the novelty of the game on your first run, its no longer a fresh experience. Not conducive to retaining new players.

Just went through this. Wasn't much fun. Wouldn't have stuck around if I didn't already have a strong affinity for D&D.

Yes! Exactly!

[tihocan]

this is a point I think almost all can agree on

But some don't agree with it actually... mostly people who rerolled their old 28 pt builds and think it'd be unfair to implement an upgrade system now, because they couldn't take advantage of it themselves.