Noob thinks 32 point builds should be for all.

[Hafeal]

actually can more than 4 more. try building a drow pally or drow bard and you can see why

I understand, I was commenting to krud re: 32 point builds and his observation that drow are not "really" 32 point builds in that they receive the same number of points to allocate as anyone else. I was pointing out that they have a base of 4 more points than a 28 point though.

Having made a drow bard, I understand your point that as you allocate points, the cost for doing so gives the drow an additional advantage.

[Deadz]

yep, in some cases it's more than a 32pt build. I can think of other builds where base 10 in 2 more stats and 28pts is better than 32 pt. - umd sorcerer, umd rogue assassin.

yeah they are very important in my 19rogue / 1 monk human assassin i want to build

[Suzaku]

I have a question for all those people who say you have to work for the 32 build. How does it effect you if they let everyone have 32 build? And why if you put equal work to a character your 32 build character has to be better off then my 28 build?

[branmakmuffin]

The fact everyone STARTED the game with the same options, is not considered by those who want new players to start out with a free boost.

Exactly. The same sort of thinking reared its ugly head when non-Dwarves got racial Toughness Enhancements.

To those who think not giving 32-point builds to everyone is bad, a bonus to Fred is not a gimp of Joe.

I have a question for all those people who say you have to work for the 32 build. How does it effect you if they let everyone have 32 build? And why if you put equal work to a character your 32 build character has to be better off then my 28 build?

If everyone gets it, it's no longer a reward.

[HumanJHawkins]

Exactly. The same sort of thinking reared its ugly head when non-Dwarves got racial Toughness Enhancements.

That's not at all the same. Anyone can roll a dwarf or not. That was changed because dwarves were a bit overpowered.

Some kid with no job might find it easy to play DDO enough to get 1750. For other people it is a real hassle. I'm not saying people shouldn't get a reward for 1750 favor (or any other arbitrary number). I and most people on my side of the issue are simply saying that this is a destructive reward because it results in 2 different classes of characters right from the start.

[Strakeln]

If everyone gets it, it's no longer a reward.

And that's a problem why?

As mentioned many, many, MANY times before, it wouldn't be difficult to come up with a different reward to replace this one.

[branmakmuffin]

That's not at all the same. Anyone can roll a dwarf or not. That was changed because dwarves were a bit overpowered.

It's exactly the same kind of thinking. People complained that "something else" getting a bonus somehow nerfed "the fist thing."

I and most people on my side of the issue are simply saying that this is a destructive reward because it results in 2 different classes of characters right from the start.

Oh, like you'd ever even notice if you didn't read it in the braggarts' "32-point build" bios.

And that's a problem why?

Because then it's not longer a reward, it's the norm.

As mentioned many, many, MANY times before, it wouldn't be difficult to come up with a different reward to replace this one.

Yes, just replace 32-point build access with a 36-point build access. The flaw in your reasoning is that it appears to be based on the notion that 28-point builds are somehow "gimped" because of the existence of 32-point builds.

[Deadz]

The flaw in your reasoning is that it appears to be based on the notion that 28-point builds are somehow "gimped" because of the existence of 32-point builds.

In honesty, the fact if they are or not isn't the issue.. it's how it makes new players feel.

[Strakeln]

Because then it's not longer a reward, it's the norm.

And again I ask... so?

Yes, just replace 32-point build access with a 36-point build access. The flaw in your reasoning is that it appears to be based on the notion that 28-point builds are somehow "gimped" because of the existence of 32-point builds.

Single-minded approach. There have been dozens of reasonable suggestions of rewards to replace this one or to fit into a redesigned favor structure. Many of them are easily as desirable as 32-point builds, but without the inherent penalty of the current 1750 system.

The flaw in your understanding of my reasoning is that it has anything to do with character power and "gimped" status. As I've clearly stated several times, this is about how people feel (new players in particular), not about whether not having 4 points gimps a character.

[Zenako]

Single-minded approach. There have been dozens of reasonable suggestions of rewards to replace this one or to fit into a redesigned favor structure. Many of them are easily as desirable as 32-point builds, but without the inherent penalty of the current 1750 system.

Let me toss out this. Lets assume some new reward for 1750 is introduced. What it is makes no difference to this arguement. Tell me why we would not then be having this exact discussion once again focused on the NEW 1750 reward and how it makes new players feel gimped when starting out without that perk compared to veterans with 1750 who have that perk.

I think many have concluded that it is the feeling of some new players that they are gimped that is the source of the issue (regardless of whether they are truely gimped or not, it is their feeling that they are that is the point here.) We could change the reward, but how would that address the core feeling?

[Uska]

Let me toss out this. Lets assume some new reward for 1750 is introduced. What it is makes no difference to this arguement. Tell me why we would not then be having this exact discussion once again focused on the NEW 1750 reward and how it makes new players feel gimped when starting out without that perk compared to veterans with 1750 who have that perk.

I think many have concluded that it is the feeling of some new players that they are gimped that is the source of the issue (regardless of whether they are truely gimped or not, it is their feeling that they are that is the point here.) We could change the reward, but how would that address the core feeling?

Exactly those same cry babies would just find something else to whine about

[tihocan]

I think a 28 pt build should just be upgradable to 32 once you reach 1750 favor.

[Deadz]

Exactly those same cry babies would just find something else to whine about

Again, your crying and whining about others crying and whining.

[Deadz]

Let me toss out this. Lets assume some new reward for 1750 is introduced. What it is makes no difference to this arguement. Tell me why we would not then be having this exact discussion once again focused on the NEW 1750 reward and how it makes new players feel gimped when starting out without that perk compared to veterans with 1750 who have that perk.

I think it's the reason that this particular reward forces you to get reward with character 1 to apply it to character 2.. if it was something that applied to character 1 it wouldn't be an issue at all.

[Strakeln]

Let me toss out this. Lets assume some new reward for 1750 is introduced. What it is makes no difference to this arguement. Tell me why we would not then be having this exact discussion once again focused on the NEW 1750 reward and how it makes new players feel gimped when starting out without that perk compared to veterans with 1750 who have that perk.

It's the nature of the 1750 reward - that it is account-specific, and non-retroactive - that is the problem, not the fact that we have to earn 32-point builds.

Replacing it with something that isn't account-wide, or is retroactive, would be a much better design. Note that if you think about my stance for a minute, that means that I would be happy if they kept the 1750 32 point unlock, but changed it so it didn't carry the inherent penalty it does now.

For example, if they changed it so that 1750 only applied to the character that earned the favor (not any other chars on the account, and not any new characters), I wouldn't waste my time complaining about it here. Uska, pay attention to this last paragraph.

I hope this shows you the true source of my ire, which I will again restate since the first thirty times wasn't enough: my problem is not with earning the favor, it's the way that it puts new players at an inherent disadvantage.

[Uska]

Again, your crying and whining about others crying and whining.

as PB says goodbye to you dont bother replying to me any more I wont see it.

[Uska]

I think a 28 pt build should just be upgradable to 32 once you reach 1750 favor.

this is a point I think almost all can agree on

[Uska]

It's the nature of the 1750 reward - that it is account-specific, and non-retroactive - that is the problem, not the fact that we have to earn 32-point builds.

Replacing it with something that isn't account-wide, or is retroactive, would be a much better design. Note that if you think about my stance for a minute, that means that I would be happy if they kept the 1750 32 point unlock, but changed it so it didn't carry the inherent penalty it does now.

For example, if they changed it so that 1750 only applied to the character that earned the favor (not any other chars on the account, and not any new characters), I wouldn't waste my time complaining about it here. Uska, pay attention to this last paragraph.

I hope this shows you the true source of my ire, which I will again restate since the first thirty times wasn't enough: my problem is not with earning the favor, it's the way that it puts new players at an inherent disadvantage.

While I will argue to the end about giving it away I agree with you on whats in red it would be much better that way.

[shores11]

It's the nature of the 1750 reward - that it is account-specific, and non-retroactive - that is the problem, not the fact that we have to earn 32-point builds.

Replacing it with something that isn't account-wide, or is retroactive, would be a much better design. Note that if you think about my stance for a minute, that means that I would be happy if they kept the 1750 32 point unlock, but changed it so it didn't carry the inherent penalty it does now.

For example, if they changed it so that 1750 only applied to the character that earned the favor (not any other chars on the account, and not any new characters), I wouldn't waste my time complaining about it here. Uska, pay attention to this last paragraph.

I hope this shows you the true source of my ire, which I will again restate since the first thirty times wasn't enough: my problem is not with earning the favor, it's the way that it puts new players at an inherent disadvantage.

Your point is noted and your opinion respected. However please understand that it seems the majority of players agree with the current favor system as do I. I do not think that any change is needed at all and enjoy the trek to 1750 very much for the unlocking of 32 point builds for my account.

[Strakeln]

Exactly those same cry babies would just find something else to whine about

Uska, you should be a little more respectful of people's opinions and stop trying to dismiss any opinion that disagrees with yours as "whining". Not only does it diminish whatever points you're trying to express, it's really a ****-poor way of trying to win any argument. Really, if you'd taken the time to read any of my posts, you'd see that I'm not whining, I have nothing to gain from this except possibly more people to play the game with. Which I think we can all agree would not be a benefit exclusive to me.

Furthermore, we both know that if someone had called you a name like "crybaby", you'd report them. Good to see you think you're above the rules. "Do as I say, not as I do", eh?