The Monster. 12 Fighter / 6 ranger / 2 monk

[Aaxeyu]

.... Alot

I rarely if ever play quests on elite, it's basically only raid that I play on elite. And on elite, harry / sally for example hit's so high ac, that no ac build can take it (more or less), I've "dps-tanked" vod with 406 hp, (not maxed, con, shroud item, no madstone / rage, etc.) And I easily took aggro off barbs and soaked him.
You US-players really really overestimate hp and underestimate <400 hp. Seriously, any cleric / caster can keep a player with 350+ hp alive, hell, I've been in shroud elite as melee with 300 hp and I stood up to him (no ac to mention). So no, 500+ hp doesn't get chewed down too fast.

His stun / trip dc will be that of a FB since he will have almost the same str (50-52, fb at 56-58). (dc, 10+20+2(kensai)+10item) = 32 without item, 42 with item, 43 with max str. VS FB, 33-34 / 43-44). Trust me, it's enough, and if it's not, then this build wont take stunning blow and instead take something else, like luck of heroes or something.

Ofcourse it's not that uber in mod 8, it's not until mod 9 it really shines, when it gets
+4 damage
+10 strength (+4 tome, +1 levels +8 ps)
+4 seeker
+1 maxed pa
+3 boosts
+5% more attackspeed on boosts
+9 to hit
So I can understand if you don't think the dps is totally uber at the moment, but fact remains.

((Check back a few pages and you'll see the enhancements planned for mod 9, or check the post on the EU forums where I have done em in detail)).

The "Weaknesses"
Ofcourse this build has weaknesses, but no major ones, since it will serve it's purpose and still have ac enough for normal, hard, and some elite content, evasion and good saves. So the only weakness considering it's a maxed dps character is that it lacks the Teir III enhancements which could be great in future modules. Every build has weaknesses but some are so obvious that you really don't have to point them out, for example if you make a pure caster you don't have to type "weak melee dps".
So, the ac is enough for normal/hard/some elite, the saves are enough for normal-elite, the hp is enough when the ac doesn't do anything. Hence, it doesn't really have any weaknesses. Only moderate ac is ofcourse a "weakness" , but would you go for more ac you would sacrifice more dps, and thus "not maxed dps" would be a weakness, it's all about balancing it out. And no, this build isn't really the best in all situations, but it's **** fun to play and it's best in some situations. (eg when you only need dps)

[Nick_RC]

I rarely if ever play quests on elite,

Seriously, any cleric / caster can keep a player with 350+ hp alive, hell, I've been in shroud elite as melee with 300 hp and I stood up to him (no ac to mention). So no, 500+ hp doesn't get chewed down too fast.

His stun / trip dc will be that of a FB since he will have almost the same str (50-52, fb at 56-58). (dc, 10+20+2(kensai)+10item) = 32 without item, 42 with item, 43 with max str. VS FB, 33-34 / 43-44).

So I can understand if you don't think the dps is totally uber at the moment, but fact remains.
Hence, it doesn't really have any weaknesses.

Quite a few snips. I think I knw what the problem is. Reading some of ur other posts I have the feeling whenever you choose to play monster you have a pocket cleric yes? And that cleric is a 'heal specced cleric' yes?. If thats the case then of course 400 hp can be kept up easily you have wasted one party slot just by keeping some idiot watching lil red bars. No one i play with plays a pure heal specced cleric cos they can do so so so much more. This is generally how a group gets togeather.

"Lets do x quest"
"ah cool my pali needs it"
"yeah alright my rog needs flagging"
"Cool anyone else?"

Quest start. I think this is where the monster will fall down to be honest is in the shortman style. Its more stoping and starting , healing up on the fly etc etc. I think the yanks call it broken play or something - that broken play kills ur boosting capability. I and alot of my friends go through guild and channels and then justgo with whatever and make it work. It takes slightly longer and we use more pots/wands but it works out. Power gamer in my eye doesnt mean having the perfect group and pwning stuff. Power gamer in my eyes is taking the worst combination and completely unsuited classes and still pwning it. The most fun and coincidentally the fastest prey run we did was with 5 sprinting barbarian and nothing else. Great fun.

If u always run monster with a healbot then u dont really know his defensive capabilities. Because when **** hits the fan its too late to figure that part out. ANd lets face it those epik near wipes are the BEST and most memorable parts of the game.

Re Stun DC yes you are a few more behind. Especially for the wf and those with a ftr split. The enhancements are actually very loose for a barb so we can fit in at least wf tactics 1 and ftr stun and trip one also. Remember others options as opposed to just keeping up.

ANd dont wry I knw what sort of dps it stood to gain. But the dps was never the issue. It was his toughness under duress that i didnt enjoy. Because I shortman and run without support often.

N

EDIT : I know its not necessary to run quests on elite because chest loot sucks BUT it definately refines ur skills. I try and make sure we do everything on elite in guild where posible as it really shows ur weaknesses better than any numbers or spreadsheets ever could.

[Raithe]

Even with using "your" calculations for attackspeed (which I've tested and they work like I've posted)...

Neither of you got it right. Here's some measurements just taken:

One handed swinging at BAB 15:
expected 89 (jjflanigan table)
measured 90

One handed swinging at BAB 15 with haste:
expected 89 * 1.25 = 111
measured 110

One handed swinging at BAB 15 with haste and fighter's haste boost III:
expected 89 + (0.25 * 89) + (0.25 * 89) = 133
measured 130

You don't multiply the boosts together, and it definitely isn't as Eladrin claims. Haste + tempest + fighter's haste boost iv will be slightly less (due to small delays the programmers didn't incorporate into their calcs) than 1.65 times the rate of normal attack.

[Nick_RC]

Oh and one more thing.

You are definately not max dps. And this you cannot refute.

Substitute the 2 monk levels for 2 Barbarian levels.

1. 10% faster movement (Faster too engage = more dps)
2. +1 PA
3. 2 Rages adding +4 str for a reasonable amount of time.

I think I shall call him 'The Beast'.

Evasions overrated. Losing BAB isnt.

N

Edit - Pwnd.

[EinarMal]

Oh and one more thing.

You are definately not max dps. And this you cannot refute.

Substitute the 2 monk levels for 2 Barbarian levels.

1. 10% faster movement (Faster too engage = more dps)
2. +1 PA
3. 2 Rages adding +4 str for a reasonable amount of time.

I think I shall call him 'The Beast'.

Evasions overrated. Losing BAB isnt.

N

Edit - Pwnd.

All very good points another build that would probably out DPS the "monster", given his incredible love of fighter haste boost would be Barbarian 14/Fighter 6 with crit rage II and kensai I. Pretty much the whole thing boils down to haste boost and that is about it.

[Wizzly_Bear]

It's not a theory since I have it on all my fighters, and even if it was like that, the exploiter and other /rog/fgt would lose just as much.

if you have it all on your fighters then why did you spew forth such a falsehood? i dont play fighters, and 3 mins of testing proved your theory wrong. why would you add more cr@p to your already feeble claims?

and no, your build loses more bc you those boosts are the only thing that would keep you in high dps. without haste boost and surge the build is $#!+.

Oh and one more thing.

You are definately not max dps. And this you cannot refute.

Substitute the 2 monk levels for 2 Barbarian levels.

1. 10% faster movement (Faster too engage = more dps)
2. +1 PA
3. 2 Rages adding +4 str for a reasonable amount of time.

I think I shall call him 'The Beast'.

Evasions overrated. Losing BAB isnt.

N

Edit - Pwnd.

yet again, yet another proof that "your build" isnt max dps.

[Aaxeyu]

Oh and one more thing.

You are definately not max dps. And this you cannot refute.

Substitute the 2 monk levels for 2 Barbarian levels.

1. 10% faster movement (Faster too engage = more dps)
2. +1 PA
3. 2 Rages adding +4 str for a reasonable amount of time.

I think I shall call him 'The Beast'.

Evasions overrated. Losing BAB isnt.

N

Edit - Pwnd.

1. Sure, 10% movement speed will help you to get to pitfiend faster in part 4, not. But I see what you're aiming at, I agree, it's a nice benefit.
2. +1 PA, actually, that's quite good, indeed, more dps than the Monster if you hit on a 2 with it, which you probably will.
3. 2x for 102 sec each(madstone+rage pot). Sure it's a boost, but peopel think that 8 mins are unsubstainable . But I agree, it's a dps boost.

Indeed, this will be a more DPS monster then 2 monk, but the difference (102*2 sec of raging) will be: 515 vs 502. Over 5 mins. So it's not incredibly much, but I agree it is an increase.

Losing bab? Not really, madstone caps the bab, and I plan on having it 100% of the time (not hard when you have several clickies and only decent ac).

Okay, so there is a possible way to create a better dps monster I agree, but the sacrifices in survivability are considerable.

(Also recall that the monk splash will yield stunning blow, and +2 more to hit while flanking which can possibly be +10% more dps)

[Aaxeyu]

All very good points another build that would probably out DPS the "monster", given his incredible love of fighter haste boost would be Barbarian 14/Fighter 6 with crit rage II and kensai I. Pretty much the whole thing boils down to haste boost and that is about it.

Gonna make a calc for that. Though it will only have 6 boosts, and only +20%, no power surge, no tempest, no favored enemy, no ram's might, etc.

[Aaxeyu]

if you have it all on your fighters then why did you spew forth such a falsehood? i dont play fighters, and 3 mins of testing proved your theory wrong. why would you add more cr@p to your already feeble claims?

and no, your build loses more bc you those boosts are the only thing that would keep you in high dps. without haste boost and surge the build is $#!+.

Then please try some more quickdrawing and get a macro.

Yea, the build is based on boosts, (which are enough for any dps battle) and yea, ofcourse 394 dps (unsurged, unboosted) is bad :/. (a level 16 barbarian in current end-game deals around 320 dps, with damage boost (over 5 min)). Get a grip man, and for gods sake go make a fighter and level it to 16 before stating false facts about boosts / quickdraws and how good / bad things are.

[Nick_RC]

1. Sure, 10% movement speed will help you to get to pitfiend faster in part 4, not. But I see what you're aiming at, I agree, it's a nice benefit.
2. +1 PA, actually, that's quite good, indeed, more dps than the Monster if you hit on a 2 with it, which you probably will.
3. 2x for 102 sec each(madstone+rage pot). Sure it's a boost, but peopel think that 8 mins are unsubstainable . But I agree, it's a dps boost.

Indeed, this will be a more DPS monster then 2 monk, but the difference (102*2 sec of raging) will be: 515 vs 502. Over 5 mins. So it's not incredibly much, but I agree it is an increase.

Losing bab? Not really, madstone caps the bab, and I plan on having it 100% of the time (not hard when you have several clickies and only decent ac).

Okay, so there is a possible way to create a better dps monster I agree, but the sacrifices in survivability are considerable.

(Also recall that the monk splash will yield stunning blow, and +2 more to hit while flanking which can possibly be +10% more dps)

Agreed on all ur points except the monk - stunning blow im confused? Are you talking about the extra feats? Because I truly hope ur not talking about stunning fist. Id suggest dropping any ac pretence and concentrate on pure offence if I were you. It seems you run monster with a healer anyhow so the item slots spent to get moderate ac would be better off investing in guards for more dps RAWWR.

Re Madstone. I have been leaving it off more and more (Especially for the random proc) when not running with a healer as the displacement/stoneskin clicks are worth their weight in gold from a mitigation standpoint.

'The Beast' will do more dps but most would take the evasion over the DPS. I am not most and truly believe evasion is overrated however. Note this uses your math, therefore plays by your rules. The calculations between monster and others il leave to someone else who didnt flunk basic stats 3 years in a row hehe.

Theres always something and someone who will topple what you think. 'Maximum' claims is just asking for severe flaming in the forums - If youd advertised as 'amasing burst dps with evasion' build people would have been far more receptive.

N

Edit - You are using in ur original link in general chat +2Ac from the shield spell. I suggest you remove it if madstones gonna be running 100%.
Edit 2 - By completely leaving ac by the wayside ul free up ap from FE defence and put it into tactical options etc in this ap starved build.

[Aspenor]

It's a pure dps build. We went for max dps, so no dps sacrifices for ac. [/URL]

2. +1 PA, actually, that's quite good, indeed, more dps than the Monster if you hit on a 2 with it, which you probably will.
3. 2x for 102 sec each(madstone+rage pot). Sure it's a boost, but peopel think that 8 mins are unsubstainable . But I agree, it's a dps boost.

Indeed, this will be a more DPS monster then 2 monk, but the difference (102*2 sec of raging) will be: 515 vs 502. Over 5 mins. So it's not incredibly much, but I agree it is an increase.

Losing bab? Not really, madstone caps the bab, and I plan on having it 100% of the time (not hard when you have several clickies and only decent ac).

Okay, so there is a possible way to create a better dps monster I agree, but the sacrifices in survivability are considerable.

(Also recall that the monk splash will yield stunning blow, and +2 more to hit while flanking which can possibly be +10% more dps)

game over, you lose

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Oh and one more thing.

You are definately not max dps. And this you cannot refute.

Substitute the 2 monk levels for 2 Barbarian levels.

1. 10% faster movement (Faster too engage = more dps)
2. +1 PA
3. 2 Rages adding +4 str for a reasonable amount of time.

I think I shall call him 'The Beast'.

Man this 'Beast' build ROCKS! I'm going to roll one right now - it's got so much more dps than that 'other' build I read about recently... can't remember the name... 'The Mobster'... or something...?

Garth

[Logicman69]

Thanks to the OP for posting his views on the weeknesses of this build.

[Aaxeyu]

Agreed on all ur points except the monk - stunning blow im confused? Are you talking about the extra feats? Because I truly hope ur not talking about stunning fist. Id suggest dropping any ac pretence and concentrate on pure offence if I were you. It seems you run monster with a healer anyhow so the item slots spent to get moderate ac would be better off investing in guards for more dps RAWWR.

Re Madstone. I have been leaving it off more and more (Especially for the random proc) when not running with a healer as the displacement/stoneskin clicks are worth their weight in gold from a mitigation standpoint.

'The Beast' will do more dps but most would take the evasion over the DPS. I am not most and truly believe evasion is overrated however. Note this uses your math, therefore plays by your rules. The calculations between monster and others il leave to someone else who didnt flunk basic stats 3 years in a row hehe.

Theres always something and someone who will topple what you think. 'Maximum' claims is just asking for severe flaming in the forums - If youd advertised as amasing burst dps with evasion build people would have been far more receptive.

N

Nay, I mean that monk = +2 feats, eg toughness and dodge. and then you can take 2 normal feats for quickdraw and stunning blow.
About the healer comment by my previous comments I might've given the impression that I always have a cleric with my Monster, but the fact is that I often solo monastart, 2 man prey (no healer) 1-2 man kobold(done last fight solo) etc. sos 1-4 solo, sor'jek 2 man, no healer. etc.
moderate ac is godly while running normal quests, it neglects 80-95% of the attacks.
Aye, stoneskin clickies are sweet, but with the moderate ac a 150p ss lasts quite a while.

Indeed, "the beast" has more dps, same class split so uses the basic build out. But your point remains. And I agree that evasion is quite uber specially combined with the ref save and moderate ac and uber hp.

Indeed, there will always be some improvements to be made, but that is also why you do post like this, so people really think hard to figure out the best way to do it, and the best dps will still be 12/6/x so I'm happy ^^ :P. It's not like the monster will have less dps just because the beast deals 9 more dps ^^.

Aye, the OP was quite "trollish" but that's because most of it was made by my friend, and I didn't edit all of it because, frankly I thought I had a point .

[Tanka]

Posting in an epicly hilarious thread in which a forum user shares his forum account information with an EU player.

Jinkies!

[Aaxeyu]

game over, you lose

Sorry mate, but my point remains. Might have 9 less dps but at least I am willing to accept it, unlike some .

[Borror0]

Sorry mate, but my point remains. Might have 9 less dps but at least I am willing to accept it, unlike some .

Which point?

Let me check that again:

Unmatched DPS. Almost 100 more than a TWF max frenzied barb in mod 9. In pure dmg, doesn't rely on SA / Crits

Oh, you scared me for a second! Thought my memory failed me.

So far, it has proved to you that:

• If you truly wanted a non-crit based DPS you would not have:
  
  • Kensai.
  • Khopesh Mastery.
• Your DPS can be beaten.
• Your DPS has been beaten by a Frenzied Berserker.

Thus, allow me to ask you a second time: which point exactly?

Seems to me like Aspenor is right.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Posting in an epicly hilarious thread in which a forum user shares his forum account information with an EU player.

Jinkies!

tanka and garth both descend on the thread!! it's DOOOMEED!!

all we need now is an appropriate google image to cap this thread... but... is image posting disabled in the Fighter forum???? OMG these forums are Tanka's bane!

Garth

[Aaxeyu]

Thanks to the OP for posting his views on the weeknesses of this build.

No worries, glad to help. (changed the "the weaknesses" a bit, re-read them to easier understand what I was trying to say)

[Nick_RC]

Nay, I mean that monk = +2 feats, eg toughness and dodge. and then you can take 2 normal feats for quickdraw and stunning blow.

About the healer comment by my previous comments I might've given the impression that I always have a cleric with my Monster, but the fact is that I often solo monastart, 2 man prey (no healer) 1-2 man kobold(done last fight solo) etc. sos 1-4 solo, sor'jek 2 man, no healer. etc.
moderate ac is godly while running normal quests, it neglects 80-95% of the attacks.
Aye, stoneskin clickies are sweet, but with the moderate ac a 150p ss lasts quite a while.

Indeed, "the beast" has more dps, same class split so uses the basic build out. But your point remains. And I agree that evasion is quite uber specially combined with the ref save and moderate ac and uber hp.

Indeed, there will always be some improvements to be made, but that is also why you do post like this, so people really think hard to figure out the best way to do it, and the best dps will still be 12/6/x so I'm happy ^^ :P. It's not like the monster will have less dps just because the beast deals 9 more dps ^^.

Aye, the OP was quite "trollish" but that's because most of it was made by my friend, and I didn't edit all of it because, frankly I thought I had a point .

Extra feats are extra feats and ul always get some benefit from them. Id drop lightning reflexes and impr crt piercing. Just get keen punct rapiers. U wont kill trash mobs as fast as a w/per but who really cares ur there for dps. AC on norm - Meh. U kill it so fast it dont matter if u got 14 or 50 ac. Nothing a little repair pot on the run cant fix.

And kobold/Sos is really not that bad even without evasion. See here.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=170598

And dont wry i GET trolling to elicit repsonses. See here. This might tickle you a little.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=171811

N