Why are clerics a money sink in this game?

[cypan41]

I'm sure it's been asked before. But after spending over 2 years playing other toons, I finally started playing clerics.

It was a rude awakening.

So I'm sorry if I'm bringing up points that have been stated before, but since it hasn't been addressed in the 3 years + of the game perhaps it's not bad that it gets brought up again.

I don't believe I've had enough mana to heal the party during an adventure since lvl 1. Maybe 2 at the most.
From that point on, a cleric must rely on wands.
As the levels go on, a cleric finds that wands are way too slow, so it becomes a scroll game. Which are incredibly over priced if the only way to get through a mission is to use them, and not just spell points.

Clerics have to soak up 90% of adventuring costs. If you are playing in pick up groups, that means you will likely be unable to be an effective cleric.


I challenge a dev to try to heal a party in any mission over lvl 10 (random pick up group, not tweeked out) and not have to rely on scrolls or wands. Just the spell points you get as a cleric.


I just think it is ridicules that a cleric doesn't have enough spell points to be able to heal a party through a mission that is level equivalent . I don't think it's over powering to give clerics the spell points of a sorc. Perhaps even more.

Why make clerics take 90% of the brunt of trying to have a money sink in a game? (yes the AH is another one, but as far as players, Clerics are singled out as a class as a money sink.)

-thanks for reading.

[FluffyCalico]

I'm sure it's been asked before. But after spending over 2 years playing other toons, I finally started playing clerics.

It was a rude awakening.

So I'm sorry if I'm bringing up points that have been stated before, but since it hasn't been addressed in the 3 years + of the game perhaps it's not bad that it gets brought up again.

I don't believe I've had enough mana to heal the party during an adventure since lvl 1. Maybe 2 at the most.
From that point on, a cleric must rely on wands.
As the levels go on, a cleric finds that wands are way too slow, so it becomes a scroll game. Which are incredibly over priced if the only way to get through a mission is to use them, and not just spell points.

Clerics have to soak up 90% of adventuring costs. If you are playing in pick up groups, that means you will likely be unable to be an effective cleric.


I challenge a dev to try to heal a party in any mission over lvl 10 (random pick up group, not tweeked out) and not have to rely on scrolls or wands. Just the spell points you get as a cleric.


I just think it is ridicules that a cleric doesn't have enough spell points to be able to heal a party through a mission that is level equivalent . I don't think it's over powering to give clerics the spell points of a sorc. Perhaps even more.

Why make clerics take 90% of the brunt of trying to have a money sink in a game? (yes the AH is another one, but as far as players, Clerics are singled out as a class as a money sink.)

-thanks for reading.

Except for VoD and Soul stealer I can think of no quests that require anything but mana on normal. If you go in on elite expect it to be costly. But on normal even the shroud doesn't need more than just your mana with a half way decent group. If you are using wands and scrolls on normal quests please consider your play style and enhancements. If these are not at fault play with different players as something is clearly not right in your statement. Normal doesn't require scrolls or wands.

[cypan41]

I would love to be in any of the groups you've been in. I can blow through all my mana in one fight in something as simple as Trial by Fire on normal with a pug....

With an all guild group with all tweeked out toons, it can be easy. But I'm talking normal players who don't spend 40 hrs online and don't have the uber loot.

oh and also.

A barb, a pally, a rouge, a monk... a ..... still don't have to spend extra gold to do elite. a few deaths? ... Nothing in comparison to the cost of 20-50 heal scrolls. Be honest.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

I gotta agree with that guy up there 100%.

Im thinking clericing just isnt for you OP.

Ive not ran my cleric through SoS but the only quest I can think of that requires anything BUT mana is VoD.

My cleric was outfitted at level 14 and Ive yet to buy anything for him since.
Unlike my melee guys that require everything to stay current.

[FluffyCalico]

I would love to be in any of the groups you've been in. I can blow through all my mana in one fight in something as simple as Trial by Fire on normal with a pug....

You are running out of mana in Giant hold on normal with a correct level group on the first fight?....

Please post feats, wisdom, level, SP, enhancements, any potency item or divotion item and we can try to see whats causing this. It may be an easy fix.

[Lymnus]

It just sounds like you've had yourself some horrible PUGs.
Stress and emphasis on horrible.

Typically, a cleric will be able to get from shrine-to-shrine in a level appropriate quest without using resources. If they find they can't just heal, you're at the level where you can throw out a greater command or a cometfall and reduce the amount of damage your party is taking, which in effect saves SP.

I mean. I can burn all my mana on one fight, too. But, that's because I'm using Empowered, Maximized, Quickened blade barriers, cometfalls, searing lights, and the like. There are some things that you can do at end game to conserve mana, such as not really using lesser spells like CLW, CMW, or CSW (I only use CSW to top off arcanes). But, really, the key thing in quests like Gianthold and such is CC; that'll save you more plat than anything.

[cypan41]

for that run.
maxed wis, started with 18, +2 tome, all cleric wisdom enhancements, human one. lvl 10 cleric with sup potency 4 item.
A barb and I swear 3 monks with a combined ac of 33..( ok I joke, but still it was like healing lemmings. PLEASE DON'T jump off that cliff!! darn... there goes another one...) and a caster.
I did the run, at the first gate they blew through all my mana, as well as casting a few heal scrolls.

[Lymnus]

Yeah, that's just a horrible PUG. Hate to sound pigeon-hole/stereotyping/whatever, but 3 monks and 1 barb is already a sign the group isn't going to be that efficient, they probably don't have a great overall DPS.

But, if they do something silly like running off of a cliff, I wouldn't worry about healing them. If they're willing to do something like that, they're willing to heal themselves afterwards.

[cypan41]

I'm really surprised to hear clerics disagreeing. But perhaps you guys just play them better than I. Hey, I'm not kidding here. I still say Clerics are a major plat sink as compared to other classes. But hell if you guys are happy.
I just won't be playing my cleric nearly as often, I'll let you guys pick up the tab.

[FluffyCalico]

for that run.
maxed wis, started with 18, +2 tome, all cleric wisdom enhancements, human one. lvl 10 cleric with sup potency 4 item.
A barb and I swear 3 monks with a combined ac of 33..( ok I joke, but still it was like healing lemmings. PLEASE DON'T jump off that cliff!! darn... there goes another one...) and a caster.
I did the run, at the first gate they blew through all my mana, as well as casting a few heal scrolls.

And see the problem was that simple. I see it .

You are level 10. The quest is level 13. While this quest is sometimes done as low as level 7 by really stong groups, it is still a level 13 quest. Doing quests 3 levels above you in a random pug is asking for issues.

[cypan41]

Ok Fluffy you got a point there. I'm just so used to going into GH at lvl 8-9...

[Lorichie]

While level ten is a bit low for gh side quests on normal, with a complete pug, completely untwinked, it still should have been doable with your mana bar and possibly a few consumables.

I have seven clerics. Ive been through gianthold. Ninety percent of the time with complete random people, where i'm not the leader, and i'm at the mercy of folks that think they are still in Kansas.

Trial? on any level? with no fort item=dead. Period. In a complete pug, untwinked.

that being said, you gotta ask yourself some questions only you can answer...

1. was the leader (presuming it wasnt you) calling out tactics at level ten, untwinked, with no fort items. (i'm assuming no one had them, i still go through gh where nobody in the group has a fort item on, of any kind. i'll assume thats more prevalent than we realize), or were they ZERG@!!@@. Zerg is ok, as long as the group can handle it,this group could not.

2. was there any damage mitigation going on? command, greater command, soundburst, web, fogs, blur, displace, stoneskin, even hero or greater hero to help to hit levels?

Those two keys right there will make or break a pug like the one you were in. If you dont have either or both of those, in a complete random pickup group, at level ten-ish in gianthold. It's going to be painful.

As i said, and i dont say it to profess i am all knowing, i've pugged a lot of clerics thru gianthold, and most wipes, or painful runs come down to the two points above.

Lastly, you have several other toons, so you've seen this, and even been a part of it. You are the cleric. You dictate (silently) the pace. Let couple die, keep the ones doing what they supposed to be doing alive. Rez at end of fight. Rinse and repeat couple times and they'll get it. You arent going to be the cleric they are going to bully around, use to level, and cast aside once they get their xp.

You may be the type of person that doesnt like to be that way, i know i wasnt, but if you are serious about leveling a cleric, you will. It only gets more painful if you let others continue to manage your pocket book.

fwiw, and completely my worthless opinions.

R

[Arianrhod]

Ok Fluffy you got a point there. I'm just so used to going into GH at lvl 8-9...

That is an important point. If you're going to PUG, especially as a cleric, and don't want to spend a fortune, you really have to pay attention to group composition and make sure the group is high enough level for what it's attempting. It may be hard for experienced players to remember, but there are people who don't have vorpals at level 10 (or even level 13), who don't realize just how important Heavy Fortification is, etc.

[Zigana]

It just sounds like you've had yourself some horrible PUGs.
Stress and emphasis on horrible.

Typically, a cleric will be able to get from shrine-to-shrine in a level appropriate quest without using resources. If they find they can't just heal, you're at the level where you can throw out a greater command or a cometfall and reduce the amount of damage your party is taking, which in effect saves SP.

I mean. I can burn all my mana on one fight, too. But, that's because I'm using Empowered, Maximized, Quickened blade barriers, cometfalls, searing lights, and the like. There are some things that you can do at end game to conserve mana, such as not really using lesser spells like CLW, CMW, or CSW (I only use CSW to top off arcanes). But, really, the key thing in quests like Gianthold and such is CC; that'll save you more plat than anything.

Some good points. Learning which cure spell to use on which character is a huge help...I usually cast my first heal on each character as a light to see how much benefit it gives them, so I can get an idea what will be effective throughout the rest of the quest. Some tanks can be completely healed with a CSW, some take a full heal and then some. Casters generally only need a CMW or CSW. Etc. It's cheaper SP wise to cast one heal when a bar is half full than to cast 5 CMW's.

Get a devotion item and a potency item, they will both increase your healing ability (and a spell pen item if you're an offensive caster). At lower levels I don't bother with it, but at around 10ish or so, getting empower healing is a wise move. Cleric heal, cleric life magic, cleric prayer of life, cleric prayer of incredible life lines of enhancements will all help with getting the most bang for your heals.

I pretty much only PUG on my cleric and I rarely have to drink a pot and my scroll usage isn't that high. When I have to buy scrolls, I search out Gtar. He's saved me more plat than I can count!

[Original]

I awesome your are using greater command and flame strike or soundburst? If not you should be...
This being your first cleric it takes some pratice, but I think offensive casting should be first... healing second, unless at an end fight, it will save mana.

Also if you join a pug and it isnt going to good... take control of group, you are the cleric most will listen.

[Kerrn_Siff]

...
I just think it is ridicules that a cleric doesn't have enough spell points to be able to heal a party through a mission that is level equivalent . I don't think it's over powering to give clerics the spell points of a sorc. Perhaps even more.
...

*drools at the idea of sorc like mana*

I wholeheartedly agree.. give me more mana, MORE I SAY! MUHAHAHAhahahahahahaha

[Lorichie]

At lower levels I don't bother with it, but at around 10ish or so,

This little blurb right here:

Recently, i ran into someone who i'd occasionally run with and i know of him, and he knew of me. We were discussing clericing, and gianthold and twinking, and he said to me the most shocking think i'd ever hear anyone ever say. (you have to remember the number of characters i have, the amount of twinking i do, and the amount of hours i play,)

He said he doesnt worry about twinking his clerics until they hit gianthold and then not completely until level 13. because you are constantly swapping out and changing, and buying and getting rid of, basically its a waste of plat. I was dumbfounded, i was silent for a few and i replied that i just couldnt imagine not doing it, we laughed and went on.

So as i level my last three i've been doing the same, no twink, just mana, feats, enhancements, wands etc. Use things as i find them and you know what, there's not much difference at all. It didnt have to be as expensive as it was, beyond wands and scrolls, and i never, ever would have imagined myself thinking about not twinking my clerics. A Cleric!! untwinked? in my stable? lol.

Point being, sometimes we simply make things as hard as, or as expensive as we do, because of our playstyle.

Personally? i heal off wands and scrolls exclusively. Use my mana for emergency healing and buffing and crowd control. Its expensive, but that's how i chose to play.

BUt what works for me again may not work for anther, or even be an option for another, thats ok, it's an option you chose, and thats fine.

R

[esoitl]

*shrug*
I make money running my Cleric.

I tend to find using resources is a once in a while thing and generally tells loads about the group.

[Aranticus]

I'm really surprised to hear clerics disagreeing. But perhaps you guys just play them better than I. Hey, I'm not kidding here. I still say Clerics are a major plat sink as compared to other classes. But hell if you guys are happy.
I just won't be playing my cleric nearly as often, I'll let you guys pick up the tab.

a cleric is a plat sink if only you allow it. lots of reasons how

1. under level for quest (dun bite more than you can chew)
2. unnecessary topping up (there is no need to keep topping up low hp toons, 10hp on a 500 hp barb is a tiny silver, 10 hp on a 100 hp wiz is a whole chunk)
3. running with known mana sponges is a sure way of suicide (keep them in a list and watch your expenses go away)
4. keeping agro magnets with zero abilities (they are better off dead than alive)
5. healing is not the best (using the correct crowd control can be more efficient)

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

Lorichie makes somes excellent points. I'll add my 2 cents as well.

If you are doing GH quests at level 10 in pugs, the most important damage mitigator is buffs and CC. Resists and Greater Heroism are a must. However, at level 10, clerics just don't have the SP to buff people with resists and other buffs and still have enough to cure them until the shrine. Also, the wiz/sorcs need their SP for CC. Web is the best, most SP efficient form of CC in there. I know the casters like their damage spells but I learned with my caster that low level in GH requires more CC and strategically placed firewalls.

Anyway, back to clericing. When I pugged GH on my cleric, as you are now, I made sure there was a Bard in the group and a Ranger or Pally with at least enough levels to provide 20 point resists. The Bards can buff the GH and the damage from the songs help the melees drop the baddies MUCH faster. I ask the rangers/paladins to cast resists. Then my cleric and the casters actually have enough SP to get to the next shrine. Also, with Bards, Pallies and Rangers, they should have their own wands to top up on the HP between fights.

Finally, I tell the whole party at the start to stay together as much as possible because the mass cure spells are far more efficient to keep them alive than individual cures. Most pugs want to complete these quests with minimal pain as well, so it's easy to get them to play along. If I notice the melees are still taking a tone of damage and they're blocking a doorway, I'll drop a Soundburst to stun the baddies for a few seconds and give the melees time to kill them. Soundburst is a great little spell for cleric CC in a pinch. If one makes the save and rushes me, I diplo them to get them off my butt. Works every time.

Oh and one last thing, if you're level 10-12 and the party is standing at the quest entrance being tempted to do elite rather than normal or hard, you need to speak up. Elite is elite for a reason and unless you have a great composition of classes in the party and people twinked out for it, elite is usually a disaster.

Hope this helped.