Why are clerics a money sink in this game?

[cypan41]

I'm sure it's been asked before. But after spending over 2 years playing other toons, I finally started playing clerics.

It was a rude awakening.

So I'm sorry if I'm bringing up points that have been stated before, but since it hasn't been addressed in the 3 years + of the game perhaps it's not bad that it gets brought up again.

I don't believe I've had enough mana to heal the party during an adventure since lvl 1. Maybe 2 at the most.
From that point on, a cleric must rely on wands.
As the levels go on, a cleric finds that wands are way too slow, so it becomes a scroll game. Which are incredibly over priced if the only way to get through a mission is to use them, and not just spell points.

Clerics have to soak up 90% of adventuring costs. If you are playing in pick up groups, that means you will likely be unable to be an effective cleric.


I challenge a dev to try to heal a party in any mission over lvl 10 (random pick up group, not tweeked out) and not have to rely on scrolls or wands. Just the spell points you get as a cleric.


I just think it is ridicules that a cleric doesn't have enough spell points to be able to heal a party through a mission that is level equivalent . I don't think it's over powering to give clerics the spell points of a sorc. Perhaps even more.

Why make clerics take 90% of the brunt of trying to have a money sink in a game? (yes the AH is another one, but as far as players, Clerics are singled out as a class as a money sink.)

-thanks for reading.

[FluffyCalico]

I'm sure it's been asked before. But after spending over 2 years playing other toons, I finally started playing clerics.

It was a rude awakening.

So I'm sorry if I'm bringing up points that have been stated before, but since it hasn't been addressed in the 3 years + of the game perhaps it's not bad that it gets brought up again.

I don't believe I've had enough mana to heal the party during an adventure since lvl 1. Maybe 2 at the most.
From that point on, a cleric must rely on wands.
As the levels go on, a cleric finds that wands are way too slow, so it becomes a scroll game. Which are incredibly over priced if the only way to get through a mission is to use them, and not just spell points.

Clerics have to soak up 90% of adventuring costs. If you are playing in pick up groups, that means you will likely be unable to be an effective cleric.


I challenge a dev to try to heal a party in any mission over lvl 10 (random pick up group, not tweeked out) and not have to rely on scrolls or wands. Just the spell points you get as a cleric.


I just think it is ridicules that a cleric doesn't have enough spell points to be able to heal a party through a mission that is level equivalent . I don't think it's over powering to give clerics the spell points of a sorc. Perhaps even more.

Why make clerics take 90% of the brunt of trying to have a money sink in a game? (yes the AH is another one, but as far as players, Clerics are singled out as a class as a money sink.)

-thanks for reading.

Except for VoD and Soul stealer I can think of no quests that require anything but mana on normal. If you go in on elite expect it to be costly. But on normal even the shroud doesn't need more than just your mana with a half way decent group. If you are using wands and scrolls on normal quests please consider your play style and enhancements. If these are not at fault play with different players as something is clearly not right in your statement. Normal doesn't require scrolls or wands.

[cypan41]

I would love to be in any of the groups you've been in. I can blow through all my mana in one fight in something as simple as Trial by Fire on normal with a pug....

With an all guild group with all tweeked out toons, it can be easy. But I'm talking normal players who don't spend 40 hrs online and don't have the uber loot.

oh and also.

A barb, a pally, a rouge, a monk... a ..... still don't have to spend extra gold to do elite. a few deaths? ... Nothing in comparison to the cost of 20-50 heal scrolls. Be honest.

[FluffyCalico]

I would love to be in any of the groups you've been in. I can blow through all my mana in one fight in something as simple as Trial by Fire on normal with a pug....

You are running out of mana in Giant hold on normal with a correct level group on the first fight?....

Please post feats, wisdom, level, SP, enhancements, any potency item or divotion item and we can try to see whats causing this. It may be an easy fix.

[Lymnus]

It just sounds like you've had yourself some horrible PUGs.
Stress and emphasis on horrible.

Typically, a cleric will be able to get from shrine-to-shrine in a level appropriate quest without using resources. If they find they can't just heal, you're at the level where you can throw out a greater command or a cometfall and reduce the amount of damage your party is taking, which in effect saves SP.

I mean. I can burn all my mana on one fight, too. But, that's because I'm using Empowered, Maximized, Quickened blade barriers, cometfalls, searing lights, and the like. There are some things that you can do at end game to conserve mana, such as not really using lesser spells like CLW, CMW, or CSW (I only use CSW to top off arcanes). But, really, the key thing in quests like Gianthold and such is CC; that'll save you more plat than anything.

[Zigana]

It just sounds like you've had yourself some horrible PUGs.
Stress and emphasis on horrible.

Typically, a cleric will be able to get from shrine-to-shrine in a level appropriate quest without using resources. If they find they can't just heal, you're at the level where you can throw out a greater command or a cometfall and reduce the amount of damage your party is taking, which in effect saves SP.

I mean. I can burn all my mana on one fight, too. But, that's because I'm using Empowered, Maximized, Quickened blade barriers, cometfalls, searing lights, and the like. There are some things that you can do at end game to conserve mana, such as not really using lesser spells like CLW, CMW, or CSW (I only use CSW to top off arcanes). But, really, the key thing in quests like Gianthold and such is CC; that'll save you more plat than anything.

Some good points. Learning which cure spell to use on which character is a huge help...I usually cast my first heal on each character as a light to see how much benefit it gives them, so I can get an idea what will be effective throughout the rest of the quest. Some tanks can be completely healed with a CSW, some take a full heal and then some. Casters generally only need a CMW or CSW. Etc. It's cheaper SP wise to cast one heal when a bar is half full than to cast 5 CMW's.

Get a devotion item and a potency item, they will both increase your healing ability (and a spell pen item if you're an offensive caster). At lower levels I don't bother with it, but at around 10ish or so, getting empower healing is a wise move. Cleric heal, cleric life magic, cleric prayer of life, cleric prayer of incredible life lines of enhancements will all help with getting the most bang for your heals.

I pretty much only PUG on my cleric and I rarely have to drink a pot and my scroll usage isn't that high. When I have to buy scrolls, I search out Gtar. He's saved me more plat than I can count!

[cypan41]

for that run.
maxed wis, started with 18, +2 tome, all cleric wisdom enhancements, human one. lvl 10 cleric with sup potency 4 item.
A barb and I swear 3 monks with a combined ac of 33..( ok I joke, but still it was like healing lemmings. PLEASE DON'T jump off that cliff!! darn... there goes another one...) and a caster.
I did the run, at the first gate they blew through all my mana, as well as casting a few heal scrolls.

[Lymnus]

Yeah, that's just a horrible PUG. Hate to sound pigeon-hole/stereotyping/whatever, but 3 monks and 1 barb is already a sign the group isn't going to be that efficient, they probably don't have a great overall DPS.

But, if they do something silly like running off of a cliff, I wouldn't worry about healing them. If they're willing to do something like that, they're willing to heal themselves afterwards.

[cypan41]

I'm really surprised to hear clerics disagreeing. But perhaps you guys just play them better than I. Hey, I'm not kidding here. I still say Clerics are a major plat sink as compared to other classes. But hell if you guys are happy.
I just won't be playing my cleric nearly as often, I'll let you guys pick up the tab.

[FluffyCalico]

for that run.
maxed wis, started with 18, +2 tome, all cleric wisdom enhancements, human one. lvl 10 cleric with sup potency 4 item.
A barb and I swear 3 monks with a combined ac of 33..( ok I joke, but still it was like healing lemmings. PLEASE DON'T jump off that cliff!! darn... there goes another one...) and a caster.
I did the run, at the first gate they blew through all my mana, as well as casting a few heal scrolls.

And see the problem was that simple. I see it .

You are level 10. The quest is level 13. While this quest is sometimes done as low as level 7 by really stong groups, it is still a level 13 quest. Doing quests 3 levels above you in a random pug is asking for issues.

[Lorichie]

While level ten is a bit low for gh side quests on normal, with a complete pug, completely untwinked, it still should have been doable with your mana bar and possibly a few consumables.

I have seven clerics. Ive been through gianthold. Ninety percent of the time with complete random people, where i'm not the leader, and i'm at the mercy of folks that think they are still in Kansas.

Trial? on any level? with no fort item=dead. Period. In a complete pug, untwinked.

that being said, you gotta ask yourself some questions only you can answer...

1. was the leader (presuming it wasnt you) calling out tactics at level ten, untwinked, with no fort items. (i'm assuming no one had them, i still go through gh where nobody in the group has a fort item on, of any kind. i'll assume thats more prevalent than we realize), or were they ZERG@!!@@. Zerg is ok, as long as the group can handle it,this group could not.

2. was there any damage mitigation going on? command, greater command, soundburst, web, fogs, blur, displace, stoneskin, even hero or greater hero to help to hit levels?

Those two keys right there will make or break a pug like the one you were in. If you dont have either or both of those, in a complete random pickup group, at level ten-ish in gianthold. It's going to be painful.

As i said, and i dont say it to profess i am all knowing, i've pugged a lot of clerics thru gianthold, and most wipes, or painful runs come down to the two points above.

Lastly, you have several other toons, so you've seen this, and even been a part of it. You are the cleric. You dictate (silently) the pace. Let couple die, keep the ones doing what they supposed to be doing alive. Rez at end of fight. Rinse and repeat couple times and they'll get it. You arent going to be the cleric they are going to bully around, use to level, and cast aside once they get their xp.

You may be the type of person that doesnt like to be that way, i know i wasnt, but if you are serious about leveling a cleric, you will. It only gets more painful if you let others continue to manage your pocket book.

fwiw, and completely my worthless opinions.

R

[Voalkrynn2]

I would love to be in any of the groups you've been in. I can blow through all my mana in one fight in something as simple as Trial by Fire on normal with a pug....

With an all guild group with all tweeked out toons, it can be easy. But I'm talking normal players who don't spend 40 hrs online and don't have the uber loot.

oh and also.

A barb, a pally, a rouge, a monk... a ..... still don't have to spend extra gold to do elite. a few deaths? ... Nothing in comparison to the cost of 20-50 heal scrolls. Be honest.

Here are my 2 cp:
Are you maxed out on all the heal paths?
What kind of gear do you use? I have blue dragon scale armor, a tier 2 heal scepter, and a potency item. With empower heal I had a crit heal on a wf for 1072 hit points one can infer a 2000 point heal on a fleshling when I crit.
Have someone with a good haggle buy the scrolls.
When short on cash or resources tell the party you are willing to use scrolls on a difficult quest but only if ppl share the cost.
Be selective of the pugs you join if you notice someone was a mana sponge last week then the will be one this week. Consider developing a handy list to remind you of the people that made your job tough. They typically have no AC, need heals like a baby needs a fresh diaper, and do not carry heal potions. I will forever remember the dolt that bypassed the inn, ran up to the entrance to a Necro quest with 25% of his health and he promptly demanded that I heal him before the quest started.
Practice triage keep the main killer alive and let others die if necessary to win the fight.
Don't wast mana topping ppl off between fights, party members need to use potions between fights.
A common misconception among tanks is that your mana bar is their health bar. Your job is to break them, painfully if necessary, of that notion.
Conserve your mana by waiting to cast 1 heal instead of 5 cure crits.
Do not use your hard earned mana potions except during raids unless these are given to you by a party member for the quest.

[Voalkrynn2]

You can do all this amazing healing, but can't figure out that you can lead mobs with a cometfall? lol. That's pretty cool

nothing worth commenting on here back to the ignore list with him.

[Wizzly_Bear]

I don't believe I've had enough mana to heal the party during an adventure since lvl 1. Maybe 2 at the most.

one, or more, of the following is occurring...(a) your party is incredibly gimped, (b) your cleric is incredibly gimped, (c) your playing of your cleric is incredibly gimped. unless you've been playing in a static group, only one person has been in all of your groups...

bad Clerics have to soak up 90% of adventuring costs. If you are playing in pick up groups, that means you will likely be unable to be an effective cleric if you are gimped.

fixed for you

A barb, a pally, a rouge, a monk... a ..... still don't have to spend extra gold to do elite. a few deaths? ... Nothing in comparison to the cost of 20-50 heal scrolls. Be honest.

they may not be using heal scrolls (though a good rogue will be), but, unless they're very gimped and/or very lazy, they are using pots. they also have to have more weapons that are generally more expensive than what goes in clerics' hands, and they also generally have much more expensive repair bills.

[faldordadink]

my cleric is my 2nd richest toon behind my pali, cost very little to run a cleric at high level, you dont have to buy any uber weapons or equipement, most of what you wear/use is raid loot or crafted, on the rare occasion that I have to chug a pot (and to this day I have never had to buy any mana pots) its usually because the raid is going bad and people see that and usually donate a pot or 2. It was a pain to level up but hold tight and it will all pay off in the end.

[Kalari]

Seriously to the OP your not an infinite set of sp. You have to learn how to heal wisely. And you have to learn how not to heal stupid.

Examples

1. The caster who decides hes going to help by blasting a bunch of orcs/gnolls/insert random large mob..by launching a fireball that may get one or two but generally has ten after them and only has 100 hp if that much...this player type is definately going to keep doing that and you can insert any aggro spell but it generally tends to be fire based. (stupid dont constantly spam heal on them!)

2. Melee who decides to tank mobs with out proper protections, resist, and poison item or pot. That constantly gets cursed or cannot take a hit. They sometimes tend to rush ahead in battle ignoring stragetic plans to make things smoother, refuse to fight in crowd control and take a lot of damage and have a lot of hp to replace. (no spaming heal on them one full heal and if they really play stupid let them get as low as possible when they yell for a heal you can let them know how drainning they are.)


I know there are new players who dont know any better but youd be suprized at long timers who still wont take care of stuff. And its not your job as the cleric to keep stupid players up. Sure getting the quest completed is important, but I find the quests gets done even faster when the types listed above are soul stones instead of mana sponges.

My clerics favorite saying is "You cant heal stupid but you can laugh your arse off as it dings dead"

I know its hard for some people who play healers to get that you can only do so much I had to learn the hard way to (3 hr madstone crater on normal was my eye opener). Never again will I allow myself to be stressed out by bad players. If they use up my mana bar thats it till I get to a shrine. Unless they are friends cause those people I can cuss out if they play stupidly.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

I gotta agree with that guy up there 100%.

Im thinking clericing just isnt for you OP.

Ive not ran my cleric through SoS but the only quest I can think of that requires anything BUT mana is VoD.

My cleric was outfitted at level 14 and Ive yet to buy anything for him since.
Unlike my melee guys that require everything to stay current.

[Cathabad]

Ive not ran my cleric through SoS but the only quest I can think of that requires anything BUT mana is VoD.

Shoot. I can and do sometimes even run VoD without using scrolls, wands or pots. But, having said that, the other day I ran a Monestary with a pug (I rarely ever pug, and the story below is why) Typical pug they were all over the place. One barbarian insisted on always running away from the party and dying, I stopped healing him completely and started just carrying his stone with me, sadly someone else would always end up rezzing him. But then the golden thing about that was, rather than waiting, and maybe drinking pots to get his health back and playing conservatively, he would just immediately charge into combat with half health. It got to be a joke after awhile. Then this sorc was doing almost the same thing, only managing to be a bit more effective. I healed him for awhile, but was quickly running out of mana doing so and decided to let him die. I very quickly made the decision I wasn't spending any scrolls or pots keeping these incredibly lame people alive. No reason for me to spend a fortune supporting stupidity. Finally a monk who was actually a decent player died, and by that time I had no mana for a rez, he quit in anger when i wouldn't drink a pot to rez him and went LD. At which point I decided that was a good idea.

Was I a jerk? Yea absolutely I was, I admit it. However, I am not under any contractual obligation to play this game and spend my plat supporting people that refuse to acknowledge good tactics. Monastary is not a simple zerg run, unless everyone is extremely well equipped and well built and well played (which none of these guys were) I felt justified making an early statement that the mana I have is the mana you're getting healed with. Any other healing will have to come from other players or, if you want me to go above my mana resources, compensate me for it.

I will admit that on some runs my friends may forget tactics, and we'll laugh and I'll use resources to keep them alive. But my friends have gotten me to where I am today, they earned those resources as much as I did. And truthfully, they give me as much or more than I spend anyhow. Pugs don't have any such leniency from me. If you are a great team player and are carrying your weight or more, I will go to the ends of the world with you and do everything in my power to make sure you come back alive. But if you think your 300 hp barbarian with 20 ac is an uber tank, run off into a mass of those monks in Monastary without the team, good luck, you're not getting my help.

The point is, you choose who you spend your resources on as a cleric. Reward good play and teamwork, not stupidity. Otherwise, yea, it is FAR to expensive to play a cleric. My honest recommendation to the OP, get a regular group of friends who play well together.

[Draccus]

My cleric hit 16 a couple weeks ago and I've only run a few raids (5 Shrouds, 4 Hounds) but I haven't seen this money sink yet. But I have seen some pretty bad clerics who are turning themselves into money sinks so I can give you advice on how to do it...

Dresek's Guide to Being a Money Sink Cleric.

1. Overbuff. Hit every party member with every buff you have. Extend them all, and leave Quicken on while buffing. Don't pay any attention to what buffs the party will NEED in the quest, just hit everything you have.
1a. Selfish buff. Don't ask any other party members to buff. Rangers need to conserve their spell points since they don't have very many.

2. Insta-kill. Target every monster you can and either Destruct it or Banish it. It doesn't matter if the party is DPSing things down in 4 seconds, insta-kill them anyway. Oh, you'd better quicken it all, too, so you're not interrupted. When you run out of spellpoints half way to the next shrine, be sure to announced that you're "on wands" and "using scrolls." to your party while bragging about your kill count.
2a. AOE. 8 second long fights against single monsters are the perfect spot for a quickened, maximized, extended blade barrier.

3. Overheal. Keep everyone topped off with Maximized, Empowered, and Quickened Mass Cure Criticals.
3a. Underheal. Use an 70ish sp Maximized, Empowered Cure Critical wounds to heal someone who's down 75 hp instead of a 35 sp Heal.

I bought 100 heal scrolls before my first Hound. I've since run 4 Hounds and 5 Shrouds (all PUGs) and have 98 left. My cleric only has about 2.5 million gold but that number's going up, not down. Now, I haven't healed a VoD-gone-wild yet and have seen clerics in there chugging pots and burning through scrolls only to delay the inevitable fail but outside of those, I think you have to work pretty hard to be a money sink.

EDITED: On top of all this, I still have people trying to give me coin and leaving me junk in chests. After my last Shroud, I had 3 items in chests and two people try to give me plat. They knew I was a new cleric but I had to tell them that I didn't drink a pot or use a scroll so there's no need to donate. Hmmm...this guy could end up being a better money maker than my rogue! If I whined about being a money sink (even though it's not), people will donate and I'll be even richer! Mwahahahaha