Poor Solutions to Potential Problems

[Impaqt]

Please do - because although I was prepared to be civil before, I honestly just think you are making **** up to obfuscate the actual point of my thread.

And yes, anyone that was actually around knows that Evasion was WAI before the change and now WAI after the change.

Evasion was never WAI. It was just said that it wasnt on the radar for a change.

I'll scan that in tonight for ya.

[moorewr]

Evasion was never WAI. It was just said that it wasnt on the radar for a change.

I'll scan that in tonight for ya.

Thanks for looking up the PnP rule.. the exchange was useful to see what the OP's real grievance is (and tasty food for my ignore list too).

[icculus]

Evasion was never WAI. It was just said that it wasnt on the radar for a change.

I'll scan that in tonight for ya.

Make sure to include the Ranger section as well - page14 in mine.

[Lithic]

This is actual one of the points I am working to get across - that Turbine is prepared to bow to forumwarrior pressure and make changes to a specific ability/item rather than solve the problem. Evasion was not the only feat being 'exploited' so why single it out for a change? Minos Legens is not the only item being 'exploited' so why only change it?

What are you talking about? The changes to the item/feat WERE to solve the problem. Evasion worked in heavy armour, this was a problem, so they solved it by NOT making it work in heavy armour. Saying the other things are problems is like saying Skill: Focus listen is broken and overpowered because it provides a +2 to swim as well, IE: Nobody cares about the other ones because they don't matter at all.

As for items being exploited, minos is again in a class of it's own. Getting a free up to +100hp from enhancements you should not qualify for just for wearing an item during enhancement reset is much worse than say masterwork light crossbows displaying the transmuting effect.


No - the original death XP penalty did NOT stop people from playing. What stopped people from playing was Turbine's change of this inital system into one that was oppressively punishing AND THEN rather than fixing it adding the ADDITIONAL ability to regen XP when NOT playing.

It was the combination of two **** poor changes that lead to people not playing - as clearly stated original. Unfortunately, people not playing was then used to justify the new Death Penalty.

Whether the original DP or the newest DP is better is debateable and mostly a matter of opinion, but the fact remains we only have the newest DP beacuse they ****ed up the old one first!

Ok so I get what you are whining about. You are crying because the devs made mistakes. And because they didnt forsee such mistakes and prevent them. AND because they fixed said mistakes in ways you don't like, but that seem to be working pretty well at this point. That about sum it up?

[Gratch]

Hmmm... /unsigned.

The Evasion change to align with PnP was announced by the devs before it happened. They said that the mechanics in the game engine now allowed them to differentiate abilities based on armor type (which it hadn't before). There were 60 pages of forum outcry when it was announced. Mostly gripes at a perceived nerf. Given the highest AC in game now is using an outfit... I'm not sure why people want to evade in full plate. You should be crying that full plate has lame AC/dr.

The current death penalty change had over 200 forum pages and multiple threads with some adjustments made after its announcement (like not doing perm damage). It now costs gold/resources for dying regardless of level but scaling with level. When it was an XP penalty for capped characters, it was laughable. Otoh, it was overly painful to casual players on low level characters.

The Minos change is fixing an obvious bug. Can you equip a mobility full plate and qualify for spring attack? Can you equip a precise shot bow and qualify for improved precise shot? A stat item that lets you qualify for feats/enhancements? Temporary feats/bonuses from items should not bypass prerequisites for feats or enhancements.

It sometimes feels like Turbine's dealing with people who had the "grandfathering DM". The one who once he let it stand once... let it stand forever. The one who never applied actual rules or WotC erratas to broken combinations that unbalanced a campaign and were used over and over by a set of players as their "goto" cheat when things got the least bit challenging. Turbine's changes are sometimes shocking and often will painfully damage a specific set of character builds - some of which were designed to get around those specific rules. Feels more like real D&D with a good DM to me if they keep the rules moving and trying to balance the game.

These minor minor minor minor minor changes concern me a lot less then how they plan to balance 100 AC builds on a d20 system, con damage, weapon/spell damage output and monster HP across the 20 levels. This will probably take a few mods and will still result in "best builds/equipment" that change between each set of changes. I'm just happy they're working on it and not the stale grandfathering types.

My solution: Switch to the D30!!!

[Impaqt]

Make sure to include the Ranger section as well - page14 in mine.

This Page 14?


The One from the V2.7 Manual that anyone can download? Cause Rangers in the ORIGINAL manual is actualy Page 9.

Sure, the Ranger version may not say it, but the Rogue one... Right next to it, Literally, clearly states "Can be use only if character is wearing light or no armor"

Ya didnt see a whole lot of 9 level ranger "splashes" when the cap was 10.

[icculus]

What are you talking about? The changes to the item/feat WERE to solve the problem. Evasion worked in heavy armour, this was a problem, so they solved it by NOT making it work in heavy armour. Saying the other things are problems is like saying Skill: Focus listen is broken and overpowered because it provides a +2 to swim as well, IE: Nobody cares about the other ones because they don't matter at all.

As for items being exploited, minos is again in a class of it's own. Getting a free up to +100hp from enhancements you should not qualify for just for wearing an item during enhancement reset is much worse than say masterwork light crossbows displaying the transmuting effect.

Something that is actually broken SHOULD be fixed - but everything that is equally broken for the same reason should ALSO be equally fixed. Currently this is not, nor has it been, the case.

Currently if SF: Listen was broken as per your lame example, and SF: Jump was also equally broken giving a +2 to UMD say, only one of them would be fixed - in this case SF: Jump's UMD bonus would be removed, but SF: Listen's Swim bonus would not. And THAT is just lazy.

Evasion was changed to not work in Hvy Armor - there are MANY other abilities that should not work in Hvy Armor, but they have not equally been changed.

Ok so I get what you are whining about. You are crying because the devs made mistakes. And because they didnt forsee such mistakes and prevent them. AND because they fixed said mistakes in ways you don't like, but that seem to be working pretty well at this point. That about sum it up?

Regretably you do not My point is that if you are going to fix something, fix it - do not code a halfassed solution that does NOT fix the underlying problem.

[Dexxaan]

Actually, the Original Game manual (As well as the PnP Ruleset the game is based on) did indeed say that evasion only works in Light or No armor.

Evasion should NOT work while in Med/Heavy armor or while med/heavily Encumbered. THis was NOT a nerf. It was a Fix.

I think the Death Penalty is just fine now and way better than any of its previous incarnations.

SInce there are no "Enhancements" in PnP there is no justification for Items granting prereq to Enhancements.

I think all the solutions turbine has come up with, Regardless of how long it or what route they took, have been positive for the game as a whole. so far....

Very good response.

/Signed

[icculus]

The Evasion change to align with PnP was announced by the devs before it happened. They said that the mechanics in the game engine now allowed them to differentiate abilities based on armor type (which it hadn't before). Mostly gripes at a perceived nerf. Given the highest AC in game now is using an outfit... I'm not sure why people want to evade in full plate. You should be crying that full plate has lame AC/dr.

Strictly speaking it was not announced by a Dev.

My point is that if the game mechanics now support the change, why not fix all the 'broken' abilties at the same time?

I do not want to evade in FP, but I would like to see the other Armor/Encumbrace abilities equally fixed.

The Minos change is fixing an obvious bug. Can you equip a mobility full plate and qualify for spring attack? Can you equip a precise shot bow and qualify for improved precise shot? A stat item that lets you qualify for feats/enhancements? Temporary feats/bonuses from items should not bypass prerequisites for feats or enhancements.

Actually, again in PnP it DOES work that way. That said, in DDO Mobility Plate does not allow you to get Spring Attack (providing you had Dodge), but like Minos it DOES allow you to get the feats associated enhancement: Fighter Mobility... so why not fix it as well?

[icculus]

The One from the V2.7 Manual that anyone can download?

Sure, the Ranger version may not say it, but the Rogue one... Right next to it, Literally, clearly states "Can be use only if character is wearing light or no armor"

Ya didnt see a whole lot of 9 level ranger "splashes" when the cap was 10.

Yes, that is correct and what I was going to reference since it is available. Funny how Ranger was not updated...

We play on different servers, but you have got to be kiding me if you never saw Rng9/Ftr1s running around - although depending upon when you started lvl12 might have already been out.

[teddok]

In regards to the evasion issue (i.e. not being able to be used in medium or heavy armor). Have any of you ever were a full chianmail suit. Well i have and its damned heavy. At least 60 pounds or so, and full plate while i have never worn a full suit weighs a whole heck of a lots more (im guessing minimum 200 lbs). Know tell me how many of you could actually dodge anything with any amount of skill and speed while wearing somthing like that.

[Impaqt]

Strictly speaking it was not announced by a Dev.Unfortunatly, The WDA's from April/May of 07 have been lost. I Assure you. the Change was indeed announced.

My point is that if the game mechanics now support the change, why not fix all the 'broken' abilties at the same time?

I do not want to evade in FP, but I would like to see the other Armor/Encumbrace abilities equally fixed.




Actually, again in PnP it DOES work that way. That said, in DDO Mobility Plate does not allow you to get Spring Attack (providing you had Dodge), but like Minos it DOES allow you to get the feats associated enhancement: Fighter Mobility... so why not fix it as well?

SO FIle a bug report and lets get it fixed..... Probably isnt a Priority since your the only person in the game thats actually taken Fighter Mobility enhancments without Taking Mobility as a feat.

[Impaqt]

Yes, that is correct and what I was going to reference since it is available. Funny how Ranger was not updated...

We play on different servers, but you have got to be kiding me if you never saw Rng9/Ftr1s running around - although depending upon when you started lvl12 might have already been out.

That Manual hasnt been Updated at all in like a year and a half.....

a 9 Ranger/1 Fighter would be a Fighter Splash. Not a Ranger Splash.

and no, the cap was indeed 10when I started.... You werent required ot have a forum account when I started so I didnt get here for some time....

[moorewr]

In regards to the evasion issue (i.e. not being able to be used in medium or heavy armor). Have any of you ever were a full chianmail suit. Well i have and its damned heavy. At least 60 pounds or so, and full plate while i have never worn a full suit weighs a whole heck of a lots more (im guessing minimum 200 lbs). Know tell me how many of you could actually dodge anything with any amount of skill and speed while wearing somthing like that.

Oh not that much. D&D actually states how much "their" version weighs.. but you're looking at maybe 20 lbs for chain (plus gambeson), and the kit on a rider in plate is maybe 65 lbs. Any more than that and your poor 5'4" medieval noble wouldn't be able to raise his sword arm.

Ah, here we go: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm

Silly WotC - 40 lbs for chain mail, 50 for full plate.

ha! 45 lbs for a tower shield?! That sure would have surprised the Roman Legions...

[Gratch]

Strictly speaking it was not announced by a Dev.

My point is that if the game mechanics now support the change, why not fix all the 'broken' abilties at the same time?

I do not want to evade in FP, but I would like to see the other Armor/Encumbrace abilities equally fixed.

Actually, again in PnP it DOES work that way. That said, in DDO Mobility Plate does not allow you to get Spring Attack (providing you had Dodge), but like Minos it DOES allow you to get the feats associated enhancement: Fighter Mobility... so why not fix it as well?

Yes, the evasion change was announced by a Turbine dev before the modifying module came out.

The answer to your "why not fix everything at once" is probably due to lack of unlimited resources and prioritization of said available resources. They fixed evasion, they introduced a number of monk abilities that don't work depending on the monk's encumbrance, weapon selection, armor & shield setup. So work going forward is trying to use the actual rules.

I'm sure if they spent the devs current budget of druid/half-orc/L17-20 character design/combat balance/new content time on adding this PnP tech to make temporarily granted feats allow the taking as well as graying out of permenantly taken feats/enhancements (as per PnP), then all these issues would be fixed at once... instead a dev spent a few minutes changing Minos Legens from granting a feat to granting bonus stacking HP and then got back to higher priority/higher visibility issues. It was nice of them to take even more time to tell us about it when there's much bigger issues to fry and an upcoming module that is sort of a make or break module for a lot of players.

[Tat2Freak]

Just a thought and diferent way to look at things...it states here..."Rogues and Monks cannot use evasion in medium or heavy armor."

Going off this picture...only Rogue lists an armor limitation to Evasion (does Monk show the same limitation?)....



...you would think that an editor would notice (since they are right next to each other) that the Evasion descriptions are not the same, UNLESS IT WAS INTENDED THAT WAY...

Is it not possible that the way it is supposed to be, through whatever logic you want to use (Rangers by Level 9 use differnt means than Rogues/Monks at Level 2 to evade), is that Rangers Evasion is not as limiting (in regards to armor worn) as Rogue/Monks Evasion?

[Impaqt]

Just a thought and diferent way to look at things...it states here..."Rogues and Monks cannot use evasion in medium or heavy armor."

Going off this picture...only Rogue lists an armor limitation to Evasion (does Monk show the same limitation?)....



...you would think that an editor would notice (since they are right next to each other) that the Evasion descriptions are not the same, UNLESS IT WAS INTENDED THAT WAY...

Is it not possible that the way it is supposed to be, through whatever logic you want to use (Rangers by Level 9 use differnt means than Rogues/Monks at Level 2 to evade), is that Rangers Evasion is not as limiting (in regards to armor worn) as Rogue/Monks Evasion?

Maybe they just ran out of space? It doest say it DOES work in medium/heavy for ranger now does it?

and if ya flip back to page 68 where the feat descriptions are, the evasion entry has the same armor restriction listed... and even says "Received by Ranger9 and Rogue 2"

[Tat2Freak]

Maybe they just ran out of space? It doest say it DOES work in medium/heavy for ranger now does it?

and if ya flip back to page 68 where the feat descriptions are, the evasion entry has the same armor restriction listed... and even says "Received by Ranger9 and Rogue 2"

Bro, I'm just throwing another way to look at it (havent owned a book in over 20 years <-- **** its been a long time!)

p.s. obviously with limited information on current rules (was just using those 2 pieces)

[Gratch]

Going off this picture...only Rogue lists an armor limitation to Evasion (does Monk show the same limitation?)....

ALSO... check it... the Ranger Evasion says (Combat) whereas the Rogue Evasion says (Defensive). Due to this, I don't think that attacking rogues should get to evade. But rangers should of course.

Also.... Improved Evasion on the same page says "like Evasion", but it doesn't say which Evasion. Since the Rangers as per our analysis is vastly superior, maybe the Rogue's improved evasion gives the rogue the heavy armor evasion though it is still listed as (Defensive) so the rogue better not be attacking.

P.S: Also... i don't think that my warforged ranger should get evasion... because he doesn't look like their picture of a ranger at all. Sadly they don't have a pointed ear warforged model.... yet. Therefore they should have class and race specific evasion types. Oh... you have half-orc-monk evasion... sux to be you... doesn't that give you double damage for being ugly?

[Tat2Freak]

ALSO... check it... the Ranger Evasion says (Combat) whereas the Rogue Evasion says (Defensive). Due to this, I don't think that attacking rogues should get to evade. But rangers should of course.

Also.... Improved Evasion on the same page says "like Evasion", but it doesn't say which Evasion. Since the Rangers as per our analysis is vastly superior, maybe the Rogue's improved evasion gives the rogue the heavy armor evasion though it is still listed as (Defensive) so the rogue better not be attacking.

P.S: Also... i don't think that my warforged ranger should get evasion... because he doesn't look like their picture of a ranger at all. Sadly they don't have a pointed ear warforged model.... yet. Therefore they should have class and race specific evasion types. Oh... you have half-orc-monk evasion... sux to be you... doesn't that give you double damage for being ugly?

Lol, I dont know how to take your post, but I do like you noticing the distinction on Combat/Defensive (wonder what thats about...)