Poor Solutions to Potential Problems

[icculus]

Has anyone else noticed that Turbine artificially creates a problem and then uses that as justification to change it? This circular reasoning is continually used by Turbine to fix problems that they created by changing the mechanics of the game rather then actually fixing the problem.

For example, the old Death penalty (XP based) scaled linearly with level. This meant it was acceptable to die a few times in an appropriate level quest and still come out ahead. Then the XP penalty was changed to scale exponentially which meant that even a single death could result in more death penalty than the quest could offset. It was viewed as so bad that it was even adjusted down in scaling.

However, by not going back to the linear progression, it still meant that a few deaths would wipe out any progress made and still not be offset by the current quest. So Turbine adds in XP regen that reduces death penalty when NOT questing. Not surprisingly this lead to people not playing when they had massive XP debt – because no one foresaw that happening…

The kicker is that Turbine then used the fact that people are not questing as justification that the death penalty needed further adjustment and we have the crappy system we are stuck with today.


Evasion was nerfed to only function in light armor despite nowhere at the time saying that was a limitation (as it was not initially). Only recently was the Compendium updated to reflect this as neither the game manual nor the in-game description of the ability makes any reference to encumbrance or armor.

Yet despite all the effort put into this ‘fix’ no other armor/encumbrance limited ability has been likewise so changed:
Barbarian Fast Movement
Monk Fast Movement
Ranger Combat Styles
etc
as a minimum these all continue to work regardless of armor and encumbrance.


Another favorite was the ‘fix’ to the store interface when the buy table was unresponsive. Everyone quickly figured out that the work around was to go to the sell table than back to buy. Rather than fix this initially, Turbine merely sets everyone to the sell table first, thereby forcing people to go to the buy if they want to purchase anything and in so doing bypass the bug. Eventually they did actually fix the buy table issue and we now start on the buy screen again.
[as an aside, I much preferred starting on the selling table as I spend FAR more time selling than buying – and the buy table takes forever to populate anyway]


Minos Legens has been nerfed in the same way. Originally Minos Legens granted the Toughness feat. In PnP, granted feats work for feat pre-reqs, and currently while they do not work for DDO feat chains, they work for enhancements. As such this always struck me as a good way of ‘properly’ implementing them. In any event it will shortly no longer work for enhancements; yet rather than actually fix the problem (not allowing continued access to the enhancements once the Helm was removed) they nerf the item. Yet all indications are that the other feat granting items will still permit access to their enhancements… How hard would it have been to disable the enhancements when the item was removed?


Ultimately, I am trying to demonstrate that many of these ‘fixes’ have not only been counterproductive, but could have lead to much better development had they been addressed properly.


Another great example of lazy coding creating far more problems than it solved:

Evasion portion aside, the OP has a very valid point IMO. The problem is a lack of vision for the future, mixed with a little bit of laziness. Without a clear goal to code to, fixes beget fixes which beget fixes. The laziness factor comes into play when there is an easier way to do something... for example, making potions into clickies. Instead of introducing new code to handle a new way of doing things, they simply changed some potions to act as clickies. This, of course, caused many problems that should have been recognized from the second this idea was floated:

1) Barbs can no longer use these potions while raging (double-kicker: they have the code to get around this - lesser restoration pots - but have yet to apply it to other potions. Nice.)
2) They now share timers with clickies, which they should not.
3) Madstone rage now makes some potions unusable. Nice.

[Impaqt]

Actually, the Original Game manual (As well as the PnP Ruleset the game is based on) did indeed say that evasion only works in Light or No armor.

Evasion should NOT work while in Med/Heavy armor or while med/heavily Encumbered. THis was NOT a nerf. It was a Fix.

I think the Death Penalty is just fine now and way better than any of its previous incarnations.

SInce there are no "Enhancements" in PnP there is no justification for Items granting prereq to Enhancements.

I think all the solutions turbine has come up with, Regardless of how long it or what route they took, have been positive for the game as a whole. so far....

[secondchance]

I would agree that they have made some "boo-boo's" w/ making some changes to the game but the the the few you choose to list the minos helm and evasion ....arn't on that list

if you thought you should be able to get class and raical enhancements just by wearing that helm ....well I don't know what to tell ya but I promise you they did not intend for it to work that way .....the same thing w/ evasion and MFP

let me ask you this if you go to the 7-11 and buy something for $2.00 pay for it w/ a $10.00 bill but the clerk gives you change like you paid w/ a $20.00 what do you do?

not the smae thing you ask .... well I'd tell they are the same thing ...... now if you've been taking the xtra $8.00 for past few months don't get up set that the clerk now is making sure he gives you the right change....

not talking to us was a bad move by the dev's, slower content not good, but fixing the 2 things you listed were good ideas they just should of done them quicker....and just becasue there are other things that need to be fixed as well doesn't discount teh fix they did do

[Bloodhaven]

He said she said... Quote your sources and there is no argument.

Rogues and monks cannot use evasion in medium or heavy armor. Some creatures with the evasion ability as an innate quality do not have this limitation.
Source: PHB

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...evasion&alpha=

[secondchance]

He said she said... Quote your sources and there is no argument.

Rogues and monks cannot use evasion in medium or heavy armor. Some creatures with the evasion ability as an innate quality do not have this limitation.
Source: PHB

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...evasion&alpha=

hey blood I think we're on the smae same of this arguement here but those sources don't mean squat.... I say this becasue this game is only loosely based on DnD rules... it's not a 3.5 or 4.0 rules to the tee.... and it shouldn't be...this is a real time game some rules just won't work .... I think the dev's try to find a comon favor and go from there....and in that reguard how anyone could of thought evasion in full plate was okay is beyond me

[icculus]

Actually, the Original Game manual (As well as the PnP Ruleset the game is based on) did indeed say that evasion only works in Light or No armor.

I am holding mine in my hand as I type this and it clearly does not state any limitations on Evasion - perhaps we are looking at different sections?

Was Evasion working as intended and then changed? Yes. Was it nerf? By the very definition of the word indeed it was. Was that nerf necessarily a fix? That is dependent upon your point of view.


Again, my point is less about the specifics and more the constant changes used to justify additional changes...

[Pyromaniac]

Has anyone else noticed that Turbine artificially creates a problem and then uses that as justification to change it?

no other armor/encumbrance limited ability has been likewise so changed:
Barbarian Fast Movement

I'd agree that more forethought would lead to less solving self-created problems later on.

Not so sure I agree with the examples given, as my barbarian can probably pickup and carry a fully loaded 18 wheeler with his strength.

[Impaqt]

I am holding mine in my hand as I type this and it clearly does not state any limitations on Evasion - perhaps we are looking at different sections?

Was Evasion working as intended and then changed? Yes. Was it nerf? By the very definition of the word indeed it was. Was that nerf necessarily a fix? That is dependent upon your point of view.


Again, my point is less about the specifics and more the constant changes used to justify additional changes...

No, Evasion was NOT WAI. The only misunderstanding came from our original lead Dev who once stated he didnt foresee a change.. Or something to that effect.....


Then on Page 61 of the Original Manual yours does say under "Rogue Special Abilities"

EVASION:
blah blah blah.....
Can be used only if the character is wearing light or no armor. blah blah blah

Then again on Page 68 under Feat description for Evasion.

If you like, I can scan the pages and post em for ya.

[ahpook]

In the case of the Death Penalty, you need to look at why they boosted the penalty to be exponential. I would guess that they realized that the penalty was insufficient for power gamers with capped characters and they took steps to correct that. They tried to reduce the impact on the casual player in further tweaks but in the end they realized that the penalty simply didn't work in that form. The correct conclusion is not that they should have stayed with a linear DP model but that they should have changed it sooner.

I am not certain how the Minos Legens, Evasion, or store interface bolster your argument as they seem to be "we had a bug and we fixed it". These don't seem to fall into the camp of artificial problems used as justifications. Unless the original development counts as an artificial problem (that makes no sense to me).

So I would agree that it would be "much better development had they been addressed properly". But I would disagree that Turbine "artificially creates a problem and then uses that as justification to change it" and I don't think your examples backed up that point.

Turbine merely suffers from not always making the best choices (especially when viewed in hindsight). I don't think that is an uncommon failing.

[Lithic]

You lost all credibility when you compared using evasion in heavy armour/encumbered to Barbarian/monk fast movement. I mean come on seriously, yours is the first thread ever to care that barbs in heavy armour shouldnt be able to run slightly faster (not that many barbs today actually wear heavy armour).

You then went into negative credibility calling the old system death penalty bettar than todays. You even admit the old penalty made people stop playing, yet think that a few hundred plat in repairs is more doom-worthy than actively telling players "sorry, come back in a week when your penalty wears off".

[ahpook]

..., yet think that a few hundred plat in repairs is more doom-worthy than actively telling players "sorry, come back in a week when your penalty wears off".

yeah. I like how the doom sayers complain about the price of repairs from death even though those costs are usually less than 6 cure serious potions (or 3 heal scroll) which would not even fill their HP bar.

[BLAKROC]

Actually, the Original Game manual (As well as the PnP Ruleset the game is based on) did indeed say that evasion only works in Light or No armor.

Evasion should NOT work while in Med/Heavy armor or while med/heavily Encumbered. THis was NOT a nerf. It was a Fix.

I think the Death Penalty is just fine now and way better than any of its previous incarnations.

SInce there are no "Enhancements" in PnP there is no justification for Items granting prereq to Enhancements.

I think all the solutions turbine has come up with, Regardless of how long it or what route they took, have been positive for the game as a whole. so far....

so a 14 barb 2 rogue with 40+str can't evade even when in heavy armor????/
str should be the key to evasion in heavy armor. not a blanket justification, after all in original dnd 18 str was massive ( remember 18 (100) was godlike)
btw i don't agree with the evasion as it currently stands lite armor or no armor is a joke and with the monk splash builds ac what differnece does it make overall if a evasion works with heavy armor?
game balance is somthing that isn't addressed with this.

[Impaqt]

so a 14 barb 2 rogue with 40+str can't evade even when in heavy armor????/ That would be Absolutely Correct. Barbarians arent even Proficient in Heavy armor. No Amount of str would overcome that. and just because an armor is "Medium" doesnt mean its easy to move around in.
str should be the key to evasion in heavy armor. not a blanket justification, after all in original dnd 18 str was massive ( remember 18 (100) was godlike)
btw i don't agree with the evasion as it currently stands lite armor or no armor is a joke and with the monk splash builds ac what differnece does it make overall if a evasion works with heavy armor?
game balance is somthing that isn't addressed with this.

Evasion has never had anything at all to do with Strength. You could have a 500 STR and still not be able to take advantage of evasion in med/heavy armor.
Evasion is abut being nimble. No amount of str will make you Nimble in Brigadne or Plate mail.

[Strakeln]

Evasion portion aside, the OP has a very valid point IMO. The problem is a lack of vision for the future, mixed with a little bit of laziness. Without a clear goal to code to, fixes beget fixes which beget fixes. The laziness factor comes into play when there is an easier way to do something... for example, making potions into clickies. Instead of introducing new code to handle a new way of doing things, they simply changed some potions to act as clickies. This, of course, caused many problems that should have been recognized from the second this idea was floated:

1) Barbs can no longer use these potions while raging (double-kicker: they have the code to get around this - lesser restoration pots - but have yet to apply it to other potions. Nice.)
2) They now share timers with clickies, which they should not.
3) Madstone rage now makes some potions unusable. Nice.

[icculus]

Evasion portion aside, the OP has a very valid point IMO. The problem is a lack of vision for the future, mixed with a little bit of laziness. Without a clear goal to code to, fixes beget fixes which beget fixes. The laziness factor comes into play when there is an easier way to do something... for example, making potions into clickies. Instead of introducing new code to handle a new way of doing things, they simply changed some potions to act as clickies. This, of course, caused many problems that should have been recognized from the second this idea was floated:

1) Barbs can no longer use these potions while raging (double-kicker: they have the code to get around this - lesser restoration pots - but have yet to apply it to other potions. Nice.)
2) They now share timers with clickies, which they should not.
3) Madstone rage now makes some potions unusable. Nice.

Thank you - good to see someone with an actual understanding of the issue. OP updated!

[icculus]

No, Evasion was NOT WAI. The only misunderstanding came from our original lead Dev who once stated he didnt foresee a change.. Or something to that effect.....


Then on Page 61 of the Original Manual yours does say under "Rogue Special Abilities"


Then again on Page 68 under Feat description for Evasion.

If you like, I can scan the pages and post em for ya.

Please do - because although I was prepared to be civil before, I honestly just think you are making **** up to obfuscate the actual point of my thread.

And yes, anyone that was actually around knows that Evasion was WAI before the change and now WAI after the change.

[icculus]

Evasion has never had anything at all to do with Strength. You could have a 500 STR and still not be able to take advantage of evasion in med/heavy armor.
Evasion is abut being nimble. No amount of str will make you Nimble in Brigadne or Plate mail.

This is utterly untrue. WotC has even ruled on it, and you are wrong again.

[icculus]

You lost all credibility when you compared using evasion in heavy armour/encumbered to Barbarian/monk fast movement. I mean come on seriously, yours is the first thread ever to care that barbs in heavy armour shouldnt be able to run slightly faster (not that many barbs today actually wear heavy armour).

This is actual one of the points I am working to get across - that Turbine is prepared to bow to forumwarrior pressure and make changes to a specific ability/item rather than solve the problem. Evasion was not the only feat being 'exploited' so why single it out for a change? Minos Legens is not the only item being 'exploited' so why only change it?

You then went into negative credibility calling the old system death penalty bettar than todays. You even admit the old penalty made people stop playing, yet think that a few hundred plat in repairs is more doom-worthy than actively telling players "sorry, come back in a week when your penalty wears off".

No - the original death XP penalty did NOT stop people from playing. What stopped people from playing was Turbine's change of this inital system into one that was oppressively punishing AND THEN rather than fixing it adding the ADDITIONAL ability to regen XP when NOT playing.

It was the combination of two **** poor changes that lead to people not playing - as clearly stated original. Unfortunately, people not playing was then used to justify the new Death Penalty.

Whether the original DP or the newest DP is better is debateable and mostly a matter of opinion, but the fact remains we only have the newest DP beacuse they ****ed up the old one first!

[Impaqt]

This is utterly untrue. WotC has even ruled on it, and you are wrong again.

Please provide a Link.

[icculus]

Please provide a Link.

Do you even read the threads you post in?

Check this out...

He said she said... Quote your sources and there is no argument.

Rogues and monks cannot use evasion in medium or heavy armor. Some creatures with the evasion ability as an innate quality do not have this limitation.
Source: PHB

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...evasion&alpha=

As an aside, Rangers are not listed, but in any event, the Evasion ability is limited by what grants it not actually limited in and of itself.