Handling the Frenzy.

[Nick_RC]

As it stands Frenzy is the key to putting Barbarians at the top of the dps food chain.

As it stands it is unwise to enter frenzy all of the time.

Im wondering if the Barbarian community can come up with any new ways or little tips and tricks that will allow us to frenzy more often rather than less(with current items etc avialable). I had a few thoughts;

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TEMPORARY HIT POINTS. (Regenerating to a point)

1. Bodyfeeder - Would be an excellent way of doing this..but not if its only on a weapon.
1a.Tradeoff: By not using a top dps weapon it sorta negates the benefit of frenzy.

2.DQ Bracers/Concordant opposition. Both proc quite often (seems theres been a change to concordant op as my casters notice it going off alot more often now. Still not as often as the torc but alot more often than previously) Dq bracers give ALOT of temp hp. The two of these items togeather may in fact help stop incoming self-damage. The problem is the are reliant on you being hit. I still think there is some merit in examining these two items in conjunction for keeping us frenzied for more often.
2a.Tradeoff: The dq is something of a dedicated job running it because of the flagging mechanism and concordant opp requires not only 24 larges but also the net loss of another guard. Further the bracers eliminate the hound spot and the associated healing amplification benefit. Edit: DQ bracers also give a negative level at times. The only way a non umd bab can take care of this is either by shrining or by getting a single or multiple hammers of life from Velah. Further casuing inventory headaches.

3. DQ Khopeshes. Not temporary hit points but self healing again. Same comments apply for bodyfeeder as it doesfor lesser vampirism. If it was not on a weapon - awesome. As it stand gives very little benefit.

4. Monk fist of Light. Nvm....

HEALING OVER TIME. (Regenerating)

1. Jerky and Jungle Cloak. Both offer regeneration over time. Both are susceptable to healing benefits and penalties. The cloak lasts for 2 minutes and the jerky 5. Multiple cloaks activated just before madstone is hit (and only using madstone as the clickie) might be a good option for additional healing.
1a.Tradeoff - It will become a little clickie intensive and will cover only some of the damage taken in that time frame. No real tradeoff but the benefits diminish as we get higher in level and have more hp. Not too mention multiple cloaks and pouches would be necessary to maintain it and you would lack the on-hit effect of that second madstone.

2. Shroud Crafted Regen Item. All 3 tiers heal (1 every 60 + 1 every 30 + 1 every 15) 7 points of damage over a minute. Underwhelming to say the least. especially considering the trade off.
2a.Tradeoff - exceptionally weak benefits for the space required. Costly in Larges for the benefit received.

3. Divine Healing - I know this is reliant on having a cleric with the requisite enhancements to be effective but all these little things add up.

4. Tasty ham - Subject to availability (clearing the centre room in xorien and running over the chaosorbs will actually get you quite a few of these...)and a 1 minute duration.
4a.Tradeoff: Benefit gained vs time spent doesnt really add up for me.

REGULAR SELF-HEALING

1. Potions (Serious). Jumping and drinking on the run between encounters will be the norm for those who wish to keep frenzy running. I have noticed with barbarians if you can keep the hitpoints maintained at near-topped-off level its easy to maintain. Its when you slip below 50% of health self healing is a very lengthy process.
1a.Tradeoff: I keep 500 Repair serious potions on me at a time an I use them ALOT. I try to keep any cleric/caster running with me free to use there sp for cc etc. This is expensive and adds time over the long run. Not too mention nightmarish inventory issues. And thats now without the frenzy to contend with.

2. Silver Flame Potions : Something that I am using more and more often. And something I beleive more and more barbarians should consider. 3 of these bad boys and ur up to full.
2a.Tradeoff : Substantial. But not as substantial as many may think. If you can get ur weaker stats to 11 you really dont lose that much. You suffer minus 10 to all stats.

Strength - You lose 5 to hit, 5 dmg in main hand and 2.5 in off for a 2wf. 7.5 Dmg as a 2 handed barb. The extra dmg u gain from vicious (assuming you can still hit on a 2) is results in a net GAIN even with the - 10 to strength.
Dex - -5 to reflex saves, balance checks, tumble etc
Con - - 100hp down @20. Also if u activate rage under the influence ur rage time is reduced
Int - Nothing
Wis - -5 to will save.
Cha - penalties to intimidate.

U also suffer a decrease in attack speed. Im not sure the exact percentage but I have a feeling its about 10%.

Substantial-yes. Tradeoff - yes. Something worth considering - absolutely.

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Note: I did not include tempoary hit points from a once off source like GH, Greatness, falselife clickies etc. Am more interested in sustained mitigation.


Summary of my thoughts.

It seems to me u have one of 3 options to get the most from ur Frenzy.

1. Take all the self-healing measure possible. Temporary hit points via dq and concordant op, carefully managing madstone and jungle cloak clickies, continual topping off via potions etc. All these measures by themselves are inadequate but togeather all those little bumps will add up. It seems tho its all or nothing with this approach.

2. Spec for Damage. Dmg doesnt just come on the form of a weapon. It also comes in the form of less-downtime spent activating clickies, drinking pots etc. Gaurds are becoming a significant DPS additive so instead of the regenning hp items u make full guards instead. Kill it all. Kill it as fast as possible. Drink the Koolaid (Silver Flame pots) go grab a drink and or fight at a reduced rate for 30 seconds and then ur straight back into it.

3. Use ur Frenzy on Boss fights and run with a cleric 24/7. Either of the previous approaches take a sigificant amount of resources and time just to make running without a cleric or healing feasible whilst still maintaining that Frenzy. For the casual gamer I think this is the only option available to you, if you so decide to go the FB route.



Any other ideas as to how barbarian can mitigate the new FB vicious dmg?

Cheers

N

[Gunga]

Nice Nick.

[maddmatt70]

I got a feeling mod9 will have some sort of goodie a high dps bodyfeeder weapon perhaps for barbarians.

[Kraldor]

It should be noted that the Negative Level effect on the Queen bracers goes off very often. It won't effect your +damage, but your to hit, saves, and HP will go down pretty frequently if you're in a big fight.

[Nick_RC]

Matt - I have exactly the same feeling. That or they will introduce Bodyfeeder or lesser vampirism on the DT armour or something.

Kraldor - excellent point. U can run dragon for the hammer of life but again its a pain in the butt. Question is does it go off enough to give you more than one neg lvl per shrine? I used to have it on several characters and found it did go off alot but not generally more than once per shrine.

[HeavenlyCloud]

Been a fan of using silver flame potions since it came out, with +3 tomes and all the grinding a lot of people do, barbarians should have at least 11 on int, wisdom and a 9 on charisma, they seem to be the only way to keep up with frenzy's vicious effect without sacrificing item slots to be able to use this potions.

Jungle cloak and jerky are good options right before you rage and if you got them active might use frenzy while your rage wears off to be able to use the clickies again.

I gotta say bodyfeeder is awesome, but it sucks that you can't have transmuters and bodyfeeders which leaves the barb with "ok" dps and be able to "negate" the whole vicious damage or taking the vicious damage and do all the possible dps avaible.

Good points, but right now we are still in the dark, the new mod will arrive with new items, new enemies (which may or may not be dps'able) and still need to see the whole effects of frenzy, duration, etc. So its hard to start thinking of ways to overcome the vicious damage just yet, maybe if we had a preview server... .

[Kraldor]

Kraldor - excellent point. U can run dragon for the hammer of life but again its a pain in the butt. Question is does it go off enough to give you more than one neg lvl per shrine? I used to have it on several characters and found it did go off alot but not generally more than once per shrine.

The character that I have the bracers on (Kraldor) I don't run very often, but when I do, the negative level effect tends to go off every couple of encounters. I would say it averages to more like 2-3 neg levels per shrine, against most mobs. It's awful though if you're in a quest with ranged attackers, where even if they don't get damage through your DR, the negative level still hits. If you have a pocket cleric, it's not really an issue since it's only one at a time- But if you're on your own, it'd be better to leave em off.

[Nick_RC]

Been a fan of using silver flame potions since it came out, with +3 tomes and all the grinding a lot of people do, barbarians should have at least 11 on int, wisdom and a 9 on charisma, they seem to be the only way to keep up with frenzy's vicious effect without sacrificing item slots to be able to use this potions.

....

So its hard to start thinking of ways to overcome the vicious damage just yet, maybe if we had a preview server... .

Yup blah completely agree re: silver flame pots. Im still grinding for my +3 int tome on Groan so i dont have to carry foxes cunning potions as well as eagles splendour pots hehe Also with the changes to the abbot, and litanys hopefully abounding as well as +4 tomes dropping even a dump stat wf or dwarf barb will be able to hit 11 cha if they get lucky

New loot will definately come out and like matty already alluded to im guessing there will be some sort of regen option in those tables. But what if there isnt? Thought it would be a decent idea to prompt some people into beginning the little grinded raids for those items that will help out would be Frenzied Bezerkers.

Im not too worried about those in established guilds whose healers can see the benefits of the extra dps...im worried about the poor pugger barbs who may get a terrible rap from it all!

[HeavenlyCloud]

Oh and btw forgot to comment on this other method, we know that "greater" regeneration from Green Steel items is 1hp/15 seconds which is not that bad and is a reliable 1 hp every 15 seconds, might not be enough assuming twf barbs get 2-6 vicious damage each attack but it still might help a little bit with the vicious damage.

Also not sure if lesser and "medium" regeneration stacks with greater regeneration if it doesn't it sucks but if it does, having 7 hp per minute might mean a lot for us berserkers and may be worth it to craft such item.

[Nick_RC]

2. Shroud Crafted Regen Item. All 3 tiers heal (1 every 60 + 1 every 30 + 1 every 15) 7 points of damage over a minute. Underwhelming to say the least. especially considering the trade off.
2a.Tradeoff - exceptionally weak benefits for the space required. Costly in Larges for the benefit received.

Noob

[HeavenlyCloud]

Noob

You edited it after i posted!!! cheater!!!
Anyway i still think its a viable method if they stack, right now i got a couple of non static items that i don't mind sacrificing for a regeneration items.

Also i'm sure we can handle the cost of doing such an item, cause Frenzied Berserker seems to be for people who have their barbarians as the main character, cause it needs a lot of items to be a successful top melee in dealing dps.

[Nick_RC]

Lol

Yeah 7hp a minute is a drop in the ocean but like i said the combination of that and other mitigation activities is where i think the optimum way would be.

Heres hoping for bodyfeeder/vampirism on something other than a weapon!.

Edit: As to the direction of Frenzied Bezerker - agreed. To properly equip and maintain one of those bad boys will be a massive effort. For me I love barbs so its not a big deal and is a challenge that im looking forward to actually. Im glad that the Peak DPS will be in the hands of the barbs with this Frenzy. Its being able to maintain that frenzy that will be the fun and challenging part.

[HeavenlyCloud]

Lol

Yeah 7hp a minute is a drop in the ocean but like i said the combination of that and other mitigation activities is where i think the optimum way would be.

Heres hoping for bodyfeeder/vampirism on something other than a weapon!.

Vampirism wouldn't be that bad if its a stone of change craftable effect, cause then theres nothing to sacrifice and the gain isn't that game breaking.

Cause we don't wanna see some +5 greataxe/kopesh/dwarven axe of lesser vampirism added, cause then we are still stuck in using mineral 2's or other crafted items which are not frenzied berserker friendly but deal the best dps possible.

[Nick_RC]

Vampirism wouldn't be that bad if its a stone of change craftable effect, cause then theres nothing to sacrifice and the gain isn't that game breaking.

Cause we don't wanna see some +5 greataxe/kopesh/dwarven axe of lesser vampirism added, cause then we are still stuck in using mineral 2's or other crafted items which are not frenzied berserker friendly but deal the best dps possible.

Exactly. Vampirism/bodyfeeder would have been a great effect for tempest/soverign DT armour. It would have really helped out the barbarian/fighter/pali (and excluded the icy rainment chaps).

[HeavenlyCloud]

Exactly. Vampirism/bodyfeeder would have been a great effect for tempest/soverign DT armour. It would have really helped out the barbarian/fighter/pali (and excluded the icy rainment chaps).

So we pretty much agree in everything huh.

[Nick_RC]

Yes. Because we're right.

[grimlock30]

am i wrong or would some of the vicious damage be stopped by your barb dr/ ? A maxed barb has a dr/7 and vicious frensy would only do 1d6(1d3?) to self?

[Nick_RC]

am i wrong or would some of the vicious damage be stopped by your barb dr/ ? A maxed barb has a dr/7 and vicious frensy would only do 1d6(1d3?) to self?

Sadly DR does not stop vicious dmg at present (and for the foreseeable future).

[MrCow]

So... bring a monk for Fists of Light didn't make it on the list?

[HeavenlyCloud]

So... bring a monk for Fists of Light didn't make it on the list?

Rofl, to tell you the truth i think we never group with monks... don't know why.