So if the ranger monk splash is overpowered... what do you do about it?

[Borror0]

I like how you've completely optimized the rgr/mnk and left the others at the average.

How? I did set some conditions, but that is about it.

All builds are optimized for great AC without dipping into gimpitude.

Why they heck would an intimitank NOT be in his stance when intimidating?

Multiple possibilities, one being that he does not want to waste his five charges for nothing. Another being that he ran out of charges.

It could a situation where he needs a lot of mobility, as well.

His dps still sux, so he might as well go into his stance.

The stance increases the DPS. The problem is that mobility is important to an intimitank.

If you are going to assume a ranger gets the 6 pally aura, then you have to assume he's standing near the pally. Why would he be near if the pally did not intimidate a bunch of mobs for him to swing at?

"Oh, don't bother intimidating the boss. I have 85 AC around you. Just switch to DPS mode, bro."

Plus, the AC aura is not limited to the intimitank paladins. Many DPS paladins will have some ranks in it for the beenfit of others and/or themselves.

Nerf the monk splash all you want and you haven't changed a thing except perhaps **** off a bunch of people.

True, if the only fix done is nerfing monk AC.

Other fixes that may fix the problem are:

• Change IR into non-Dodge.
  
  • Add items with lower bonus of the bonus type introduced by the new IR.
• Change Chattering Ring into non-Dodge (NOT the same bonus type as the new IR)
  
  • Add items with lower bonus of the bonus type introduced by the new Chattering Ring.
• Remove Favored Defense.
• Increase S&B DPS.
• Add new mitigation methods for S&B, like passive DR.
• Add a few extra S&B-only AC via feats. (Careful to not add too much.)

There are possibly others, but yes, fixing will not be not easy.

[Deadz]

Might i suggest the easy way to fix it is to entirely redo the armor bonuses from heavy/medium/light plate, and ditch the pnp system..

For example.

Full plate could be something like +18 instead of +8..

completely balance the game w/o nerfing any builds, just make them less necessary without hurting them.. the statistical analysis of what exactly they should be unfortunately should be left to someone better suited to do that.

(sidebar: oddly enough, the great fighters from dungeons and dragons lore weren't heavy plate wearers to my knowledge, or atleast very little of them were..) we can't try to completely change it and keep it the same at the same time..

[Angelus_dead]

Given real-time gaming, that is the only way to do it.

At least, there is got to be a way to draw aggro and if that is what you mean by pigeonholing into an intimitank, then there is no other way around it. If there is no way for one to draw aggro, then his AC is worthless in a group.

Not true.

A reliance on aggro for MMO tanking is typical, but not inevitable. There are many things that could be done as alternatives. One simple idea: each time a shield-wearer completes a full-attack on an enemy, it is debuffed so that all it's melee attacks within the next 2 seconds grant the target a Shield AC bonus equal to your own.

For some more elaborate ideas, look at the non-aggro tanking classes in 4e.

[branmakmuffin]

Might i suggest the easy way to fix it is to entirely redo the armor bonuses from heavy/medium/light plate, and ditch the pnp system.

For example.

Full plate could be something like +18 instead of +8.

completely balance the game w/o nerfing any builds, just make them less necessary without hurting them.

But that wouldn't stop the complaining. In the opinions of some, a bonus to X is a nerf of Y. Look at all the people who complained that granting racial toughness enhancements to other races was a nerf of Dwarves. I'm not saying you're incorrect, I'm just saying people would complain.

[Angelus_dead]

Might i suggest the easy way to fix it is to entirely redo the armor bonuses from heavy/medium/light plate, and ditch the pnp system..

That's somewhat true, except that to "ditch" the pnp system would be so hard, it's effectively impossible.

completely balance the game w/o nerfing any builds

That's impossible. Any serious change to balance will, by definition, reduce some characters and increase others. Someone will be nerfed.

[branmakmuffin]

Any serious change to balance will, by definition, reduce some characters and increase others. Someone will be nerfed.

Giving a bonus to Fred does is not in any way "nerfing" Joe. It might make Joe unhappy or jealous, but that's Joe's problem.

[Borror0]

There are many things that could be done as alternatives. One simple idea: each time a shield-wearer completes a full-attack on an enemy, it is debuffed so that all it's melee attacks within the next 2 seconds grant the target a Shield AC bonus equal to your own.

I can perfectly see how it would work in a tabletop game but in a MMO, I can't.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Question to the experts: assuming a perfect world where players wouldn't be upset about it or there was a respec option... What is wrong with the simple suggestion that monk wisdom and class bonuses to AC only function when the monk is centered?

EDIT: oh I should add, in this 'perfect world' it doesn't matter if you break PnP rules for the sake of game balance, or if you're just plain inconsistent with said rules.

Garth

[Borror0]

Question to the experts: assuming a perfect world where players wouldn't be upset about it or there was a respec option... What is wrong with the simple suggestion that monk wisdom and class bonuses to AC only function when the monk is centered?

Let's look at what happens when you nerf monk Wisdom and class bonuses to AC to only function when centered.

Str-based builds will rather DPS over AC, since they only had medium AC anyway. The trade of DPS for a few more points of AC is clearly not worth it for them, as DPS is much more of a concern to them. Logic would lean to believe they would rather loose 3-5 AC over 5-6, thus a cap to monk AC is better for them.

As for Dex-builds, they will be upset if they have to craft new Greensteel weapons. Probably that M9 will introduce new, better weapons to replace Greensteel but until they acquire a pair, they'll be upset (and they'll be forever upset if they got to craft a new pair because Mineral II will still be the best transmuters available - which is very likely).

However, this is all player psychology, the main problem with nerfing to centered only is that it doesn't fix the problem. It pretty much kills Str-based w/ monk splash forever (that may be or not be a bad thing depending on your perspective) but Dex-builds with a monk splash can still reach incredible heights and their DPS is still potent. Of course, it is not as powerful as it used to be but it clearly still is better than S&B DPS and that build is still dominating the AC realm.

While the idea does have potential, it is not enough on its own.

It could be part of a greater fix but it isn't the way to fix the existing problem at once.

[TreknaQudane]

In a game with functionally infinite XP gain, this is silly and pointless.

What they should do is similar to what they did with Sorc's doubling of SP items. They gain a percentage of their Wisdom bonus to AC based on what percentage of Monk they are.

I have to say I agree with that idea... Say cap your wisdom bonus to ac to your monk level, more monk levels open up a higher bonus, but at the point of becoming a big boon, its not a splash.

[hu-flung-pu]

Convert all monk WIS bonuses, and level AC bonuses to "Armor" bonuses that stack with each other, forcing people to make a choice between going naked or having a little decency and wearing that chain shirt.

[Monkey_Archer]

Convert all monk WIS bonuses, and level AC bonuses to "Armor" bonuses that stack with each other, forcing people to make a choice between going naked or having a little decency and wearing that chain shirt.

This hurts pure monks... not multiclass....

Requirements for a monk ac nerf:
1. It should not affect a pure monk or any build with mostly monk levels.
2. Any build with 1 or 2 monk levels in it should still retain some benefit.

Making wisdom an armor bonus would kill the monk class completly, and would lower pure monk ac by 6-8 depending on bracers...
Forcing people to use monk weapons would likely make almost every 1or 2 monk splash build completely pointless, and does nothing about a dex based build.

The only sensible option is limiting wisdom ac by # of monk levels...
1 wisdom per monk level would work... OR
limiting wisdom ac as a function of monk levels/all levels

I tend to prefer option 1... because option 2 could hurt higher monk multiclasses such as a 10 monk/ 6ranger or a 14 monk/2fighter

[Deathseeker]

This hurts pure monks... not multiclass....

Requirements for a monk ac nerf:
1. It should not affect a pure monk or any build with mostly monk levels.
2. Any build with 1 or 2 monk levels in it should still retain some benefit.

Making wisdom an armor bonus would kill the monk class completly, and would lower pure monk ac by 6-8 depending on bracers...
Forcing people to use monk weapons would likely make almost every 1or 2 monk splash build completely pointless, and does nothing about a dex based build.

The only sensible option is limiting wisdom ac by # of monk levels...
1 wisdom per monk level would work... OR
limiting wisdom ac as a function of monk levels/all levels

I tend to prefer option 1... because option 2 could hurt higher monk multiclasses such as a 10 monk/ 6ranger or a 14 monk/2fighter

Monkey, another option that fits your description would be to make the monk bonus of type shield, and then give the monk a couple of more AC in the form of enhancements or a feat to offset the fact they cant use shield clickies, wands or cookies anymore.

This takes 2 to 4 ac away from the Tempest / Monk combo, and eliminates the stacking of shield spells / clickies / cookies from other classes when they also have a monk splash. That is a moderate approach that trims things a little more without hammering anyone too much.

And one might argue shield spells/clickies/cookies shouldnt work with monk wis bonus anyway as the wis bonus is supposed to require the non-use of a shield. But to me I can live with either side of the monk piece of this, I more concerned with this as a good middle ground solution with the issues of a monk/tempest splash.

Then shield type ac becomes either:

1. Tempest bonus AC
2. Monk Wisdom AC
3. Shield wand/clicky/cookie

It would now mean take the highest of the 3 and not let them stack. They set a precedent with this when they changed the type on Tempest...why not finish the job with the monk wis bonus.

[Monkey_Archer]

Monkey, another option that fits your description would be to make the monk bonus of type shield, and then give the monk a couple of more AC in the form of enhancements or a feat to offset the fact they cant use shield clickies, wands or cookies anymore.

This takes 2 to 4 ac away from the Tempest / Monk combo, and eliminates the stacking of shield spells / clickies / cookies from other classes when they also have a monk splash. That is a moderate approach that trims things a little more without hammering anyone too much.

And one might argue shield spells/clickies/cookies shouldnt work with monk wis bonus anyway as the wis bonus is supposed to require the non-use of a shield. But to me I can live with either side of the monk piece of this, I more concerned with this as a good middle ground solution with the issues of a monk/tempest splash.

Then shield type ac becomes either:

1. Tempest bonus AC
2. Monk Wisdom AC
3. Shield wand/clicky/cookie

It would now mean take the highest of the 3 and not let them stack. They set a precedent with this when they changed the type on Tempest...why not finish the job with the monk wis bonus.

Not a bad idea, but would definatly require some pure monk ac enhancements.
I really dont want to see pure monks hurt by this.
This will work for ranger/monks... but doesnt do much to the even higher ac rogue/monks

[daniel7]

Well 3 years ago people complained about how worthless rangers were. Now people complain about how power rangers are. It actually took several mods and several changes to get the ranger to be a viable option. The balancing issue is always something turbine is working on. Next mod they will try again via enhancements and capstones. This is nothing new. With every mod comes some more balancing. This of course will lead to several more threads like this one where people ask for Turbine to nerf some builds because either his/her build got nerfed with a loss of power or everyone else's build got that needed boost in power.