So if the ranger monk splash is overpowered... what do you do about it?

[Borror0]

Well, you know, people who pick out one line to respond to from one of his posts are being dishonest. When he does it, it's perfectly OK.

We all have our double standards and I don't think the comparison you make is correct.

Anyway.

[branmakmuffin]

We all have our double standards and I don't think the comparison you make is correct.

Anyway.

J'comprend pas.

[Borror0]

J'comprend pas.

Nothing important.

[krud]

Like what? I think I summarized it all, really.

As for the putting a cap to monk AC, how is that NOT a nerf requiring respec? Seems like you're already agreeing with me.

The tempest shield nerf did not elicit a huge demand for respec. Smaller incremental changes and appropriate costs will not necessitate a respec if there still is some worthwhile benefit to going monk. Completely remove it and a respec is most certainly needed. What are the chances that we going to see a respec option? be honest. ZERO! there's your answer.

No sense in addressing only the AC side of the issue when it comes to s&b. Even if you remove the monk splash from the picture, s&b still sux compared to pure ranger and most other TWF styles. I am extremely dissappointed in the supposed boosts to pally and ftr s&b. They are pigeonholing every single shield wielder into an intimitank. Oh yay! score one for more variety. They will still suck at dps,especially when compared to TWF. Any other change to balance s&b is going to have to be on the dps side, none of which involve the monk splash.

The monk splash AC issue should be addressed only as far as it affects builds with and without it. Compare the trade offs to a pure ranger and it might be easier to make changes that won't send everyone screaming for a never-gonna-be-implemented respec.

Allow the bonus in some form, but make it more costly and you limit the need for a respec. Smaller uncentered AC bonus tied to monk level is one way. Giving tempests their (untyped) AC bonus, but make it more costly with feats and AP is another way to alleviate the sting of the nerf, especially for those 1 wiz splashes. Try coming up with some appropriate costs and a wis AC nerf might be implemented. Shoot to nerf it all, and it never will, or at least not without a very bad response from the player base.

[branmakmuffin]

Nothing important.

No entiendo.

[krud]

No entiendo.

can we please get on with the discussion?

[branmakmuffin]

can we please get on with the discussion?

Only if you post something in a language other than English.

[Borror0]

Smaller incremental changes and appropriate costs will not necessitate a respec if there still is some worthwhile benefit to going monk.

You have missed the question: how is what you suggest not a nerf?

Smaller incremental changes and appropriate costs will not necessitate a respec if there still is some worthwhile benefit to going monk.

Oh, sure, the trade off will be more balanced. Heck, done carefully, it will be one of many good builds that can be built.

One problem arises, though, people will still be frustrated because that will not be what they have built the character for. The way the character will behave, post-nerf, will be entirely different from what it was planned for. As a result, people will be upset. Let's face it, it is currently unacceptable for a TWF character to have nearly maximum DPS and have some of the highest AC in the game while having Evasion, high saves and more than decent HP. Something will have to change and in 99% of the possible scenarios, a lot of people will be upset. In the one remaining percentage, a few will be upset.

We're not making a class or race less powerful, but questioning the value of a multiclass and investment of creation points. Those, for now, cannot be changed and it won't matter to many players if the build remains powerful: it is not what it was designed for. Pretending otherwise would mean to accept that power is the only criteria used by all DDO players when building their character, which is an indefensible position.

Even if you remove the monk splash from the picture, s&b still sux compared to pure ranger and most other TWF styles.

True, I have been saying this for over a year now. What is your point?

Are you saying nerfing monk splash's AC will not help? That would be false.

If you nerf the top AC builds around, S&B becomes much easier to balance. I have covered that before in the past and we have even talked about it together. And, you're agreeing with me. Otherwise, you'd be here boosting every other options but you are here suggesting nerfs.

Or, am I getting your point wrong?

I am extremely dissappointed in the supposed boosts to pally and ftr s&b.

Let me ask you: what boost to S&B paladins and fighters?

They are pigeonholing every single shield wielder into an intimitank.

Given real-time gaming, that is the only way to do it.

At least, there is got to be a way to draw aggro and if that is what you mean by pigeonholing into an intimitank, then there is no other way around it. If there is no way for one to draw aggro, then his AC is worthless in a group. Most of the time, someone else will have the aggro and the AC will be wasted. Cleaving mobs might address that, a bit, but such encounters are hard to balance as shown by the Shroud (assuming the intend of Harry's Cleaves was to make lower AC worthwhile).

Paladins, in their current implementation, offer a non-Intimidate way of grabbing aggro. So, in that way, S&B characters are not forced into becoming intimitanks. It's just that it is the best way to play a S&B character. Intimidate gains you so much and the cost is so little. There would need to be serious additions to the game for there to be any kind of non-intimitank S&B character.

That much effort is not warranted, for the moment. There are more pressing issues.

Any other change to balance s&b is going to have to be on the dps side, none of which involve the monk splash.

There is a need to improve DPS, but the defensive capabilities of S&B characters are still lacking.

Shoot to nerf it all, and it never will, or at least not without a very bad response from the player base.

This may sound like a silly question, but you do realize you are simply restating one solution that I have supported to nerf monk splash, right?

Oh, and I hope this is enough text for you this time.

[Auran82]

As far as I'm concerned the biggest culprits here is the system this game is based off and also the strict adherence to this system in some areas, but not others (here I am referring to things like +5 being the max for armour, but at the same time we have stupidly inflated stats, which means one type of AC build who relys on armour is restricted, while the other who relies on stats ends up with much higher numbers)

In PnP having a static number for AC where you will either be hit for full damage, or missed entirely works fine because of how PnP encounters are typically set out and how character/gear progression usually works.

In an MMO on the other hand where people want to want to get a feeling of advancing their character and as such, things like AC/SP/DPS/HP etc will be forever going up, the problem arises when the max AC achievable (and at the same time, enemy attack bonuses) start getting to stupid levels and because of this, the classes who typically have low ac have a significantly lower ac than the upper levels as such they get hit 95% of the time no matter what (blur and displacement start to not count too because it seems nearly every enemy we come accross has some kind of true seeing.) Then you have the middle range ACs around 50 or so, which is still quite reasonable, but when encounters are balanced around the 70 - 80 ac range (which seems to be where things are heading), the character may as well be running around naked. Another culprit of this is the static hit bonuses in the game instead of the penalties on subsequent attacks found in PnP which gives those with a lower AC a chance.

Something needs to be done about AC in general, at the moment the thinking seems to be boosting fighters/paladins through PREs which seems to be the wrong way to go because it simply widens the gap that mid ac characters can't match. Other things have been suggested in the past like passive DR based on type of armour/shield worn (above adamantine etc) Maybe some slight deviation from PnP is required here, in PnP things have to be kept relatively simple so it can be worked out, in an MMO we have a computer here to work everything out for us, why not make use of it?

Continued inflation really wont solve anything.

As a side note, in some ways the 'AC' system employed in D20 doesn't make a lot of sense to me, a heavily armoured figher with a shield is trying to use the armour to absorb attacks or block the attack with their shield (or really, parry the attack with their weapon) where as the nimble character is simply trying to not get hit, but at the same time attacks pretty much either hit for full damage, or miss and do nothing, there is no inbetween.

[GlassCannon]

Something will have to change and in 99% of the possible scenarios, a lot of people will be upset. In the one remaining percentage, a few will be upset.

There are currently quite a number of upset people over the power of this build. We are looking forward to a change(nerf) to the AC/DPS that the build can attain, so we can break out the AC Paladins and Intimidate spec'd AC Fighter Pures out there and not be stoutly insulted by said build.

100% of the population that chooses not to make this build is upset with the content being geared to the AC/DPS potential of said build.

The problem exists, is plain, is in some cases made to be offensive(by certain people), and needs a balance.


In short, people need to stop trying to break the game at the expense of others.

[BigBadBarry]

But is the game already broken in regards to AC?

I have guildies with ranger/monk splash builds getting to 83 AC (and they could go higher theoretically)

Think about it - 83 AC.

So they HAVE to add mobs in Mod 9 that will need say at least a 15 to hit you or its too easy as you'll never get hit.
Thats mobs having +68 to hit.

This means people walking around with 68 AC will be effectively autohit. 68 AC useless!

And thats on a 15 to hit 83 AC. If they go with a mob that hits you on a 13 then this makes 70 AC useless. 70AC useless!

And yes...they have high AC AND high DPS AND evasion etc etc

It's already broken.

[Borror0]

In short, people need to stop trying to break the game at the expense of others.

As if the players had control over that. Players will play the game as it is, and as a general rule, players also like playing strong character.

Only ones to blame for 'breaking the game' are the game developers.

[krud]

Borror0,
If the idea is that intimtank is the only path for any s&b then the recent defender PrE have effectively done what they are supposed to. Lets look at some of the reasonably achievable ACs for a dex rgr/mnk vs the s&b pally or ftr, all with a good compliment of gear, using the proposed changes for next mod. I think i've covered the major items. I won't count the short term boosts. Do these look about right?

bonus     rgr/mnk       pally       ftr
stats/items
base         10          10          10
armor         7          15          15
dex          12           5           6
wis           5           -           -
+5 prot       5           5           5
shield        -           9           9
alchem        1           2           2
GS insight    4           4           4
chaosg        -           2           2
IR            4           -           -
feats/enhancements
tempest3      4           -           -
pally aura    -           5           -
def PrE       -           4           4
dodge         1           1           1
TWD           1           -           -
CE            5           5           5
unbuffed     59          67          63
 
bark          5           5           5
haste         1           1           1
recit         2           2           2
bard          4           4           4
raid buff    71          79          75

Add harder to get items like the chattering and these get even better. Where do you suppose mob to-hits should be given these numbers? How far behind should dex rangers be in order to make the dps/AC trade off worthwhile? Also, consider that most str based rgr/mnk are going to be a few points behind the dex rgrs. Remember they have to stay within the d20 window. Nerf them behind far enough and they'll end up like everyone else; "Why bother with AC?"

What I proposed basically gives the monk splashes ~2 AC over a pure ranger, instead of the full wisdom bonus, and it lowers their AC overall by ~2-4 from the above value. It reduces the wis bonus, and they gain a little back thru the separate tempest AC enhancement should they choose to go that route. This allows pure rangers retain their current AC thru the tempest AC enhancement. It makes the monk splash not so much of a given, but definitely not a waste.

In a perfect DDO world, we'd have a respec option and turbine would have a free rein with the nerfs. I'm just trying to work with what's more likely.

[Borror0]

It makes the monk splash not so much of a given, but definitely not a waste.

This is going to be rude, but I think you need to hear it: you have came up with nothing new.

Let me explain: this has already been suggested in the past, even by me! What are you trying to argue? I just don't get it. That you agree with me? Not really, as you would have simply /agree'd one of my post somewhere. That you have a new original fix that everyone could agree on? Neither, that cap has already have been suggested.

I have told you, many times in the past, that my intent was not to nerf monk splash into oblivion... so what is your point?

Is it that you want to prove me you are more clever than me? If so, try at least with something I haven't agree on in the past... it seems to me you're after an ego boost in this argument, and not into figuring out a proper fix. If not, not seeing what you're arguing here, really.

[krud]

This is going to be crude and rude, but I think you need to hear it: you have came up with nothing new.

Let me explain: this has already been suggested in the past, even by me! What are you trying to argue? I just don't get it. That you agree with me? Not really, as you would have simply /agree'd one of my post somewhere. That you have a new original fix that everyone could agree on? Neither, that cap has already have been suggested.

I have told you, many times in the past, that my intent was not to nerf monk splash into oblivion... so what is your point?

Is it that you want to prove me you are more clever than me? If so, try at least with something I haven't agree on in the past... it seems to me you're after an ego boost in this argument, and not into figuring out a proper fix. If not, not seeing what you're arguing here, really.

I was unaware of any similar proposal by you regarding the tempest AC. If I missed it then ok, my bad.

Also, almost everyone says a respec option is a must if any wisdom AC nerf is to be implemented. I say it's not. It can be done if the nerf bat isn't so harsh.

[bobbryan2]

I was unaware of any similar proposal by you regarding the tempest AC. If I missed it then ok, my bad.

Also, almost everyone says a respec option is a must if any wisdom AC nerf is to be implemented. I say it's not. It can be done if the nerf bat isn't so harsh.

The degree of nerf is irrelevant to whether or not you should be able to fix your character the way you like it after Turbine changes the rules.

[krud]

The degree of nerf is irrelevant to whether or not you should be able to fix your character the way you like it after Turbine changes the rules.

People seemed to take the toughness nerf in stride. Increase some, drop others slightly. It's not as drastic. Nobody demanded a respec over it. And when are we going to see this "respec" option? Do they do nothing until then? Little nerfs here and there can be done in the meantime.

[Borror0]

Some corrections to your numbers:

bonus             18rgr/1mnk     18pal/2ftr       18ftr/2pal
stats/items
base                   10            10               10
armor                   8            15               15
dex                    14             5                7
wis                     7             -                -
+5 prot                 5             5                5
shield                  -             9                9
alchem                  1             2                2
GS insight              4             4                4
chaosg                  -             2                2
IR                      4             -                -

feats/enhancements
tempest3                4             -                -
Fav Def                 3             -                -
pally aura              -             5                1
def PrE                 -             1                3
dodge                   1             1                1
TWD                     1             -                -
CE                      5             5                5
unbuffed               67            64               64
bark                    5             3                3
haste                   1             1                1
self-buffed            73            68               68
bark                    -             2                2
recit                   2             2                2
pally aura              6             -                5
bard                    4             4                4
raid buff              85            76               81

The AC of the fighter and paladin can both be raised by 4, if they are in their defensive stance which reduces your movements by 1/4.

The ranger's AC drops by 3 if not against his FEs. Also, the ranger could gain an extra AC self-buffed, by going going 1 pal.

[krud]

Some corrections to your numbers:

bonus             18rgr/1mnk     18pal/2ftr       18ftr/2pal
stats/items
base                   10            10               10
armor                   8            15               15
dex                    14             5                7
wis                     7             -                -
+5 prot                 5             5                5
shield                  -             9                9
alchem                  1             2                2
GS insight              4             4                4
chaosg                  -             2                2
IR                      4             -                -
 
feats/enhancements
tempest3                4             -                -
Fav Def                 3             -                -
pally aura              -             6                1
def PrE                 -             1                3
dodge                   1             1                1
TWD                     1             -                -
CE                      5             5                5
unbuffed               67            65               64
bark                    5             3                3
haste                   1             1                1
self-buffed            73            69               68
bark                    -             2                2
recit                   2             2                2
pally aura              6             -                5
bard                    4             4                4
raid buff              85            77               77

The AC of the fighter and paladin can both be raised by 4, if they are in their defensive stance which reduces your movements by 1/4.

The ranger's AC drops by 3 if not against his FEs. Also, the ranger could gain an extra AC self-buffed, by going going 1 pal.

I like how you've completely optimized the rgr/mnk and left the others at the average.

Why they heck would an intimitank NOT be in his stance when intimidating? What else is he going to do after he intimidates them? His dps still sux, so he might as well go into his stance. If you are going to assume a ranger gets the 6 pally aura, then you have to assume he's standing near the pally. Why would he be near if the pally did not intimidate a bunch of mobs for him to swing at?

If I take your numbers as fact, then even without the monk splash a ranger is at 78AC. Still as high as the max a s&b can get, plus all the dps. 18rgr/anything is still going to be the end all be all. No nerf will ever fix that. The monk splash just becomes gravy. Nerf the monk splash all you want and you haven't changed a thing except perhaps **** off a bunch of people.

[Borror0]

The degree of nerf is irrelevant to whether or not you should be able to fix your character the way you like it after Turbine changes the rules.

Oh, the degree is relevant, but not as much as krud pretends it is.

In this case, you're drastically changing the behavior of the character (assuming that anything done would really restore balance). A respec is required, because you'll go from best AC and quite good DPS to lower AC and DPS would also be going down (assuming the FE nerf done at the same time). It changes the way you'll play the character quite a lot.

No matter how you do it, it won't be the same character anymore.

Sure, Turbine can take out the chainsaw and do it anyway, but be ready for a lot of whining.

I was unaware of any similar proposal by you regarding the tempest AC. If I missed it then ok, my bad.

Oh no, I was totally ignoring those because they would not help the situation. The ranger would have +2 more AC than they have on my calculations (assuming you don't give them AC bonuses with Tempest II and III), which would be pretty bad. If you're not to cut into Tempest, where will you cut?

I was referring to monk AC and how you are trying to make it seems like you're the only one try nerfing while keeping the option valid.

Everyone is trying that, except maybe a few jealous one.