So if the ranger monk splash is overpowered... what do you do about it?

[Cold_Stele]

I agree the Monk splash needs nerfing, but a Pal18/Mnk2 will be a force to contend with against Evil Outsiders. Having GEOB on any weapon they wield is pretty potent.

...but I'm not saying Monk splash needs nerfing, just the opposite.

With your example, Evil Outsiders, pure Pally will do significantly more DPS than Monk splash, and have higher Str and Cha too.

1 Monk is not a problem unless you bolt it on a Rgr.

[Kintro]

4. Add a +4 Dodge Ring.

So this isn't entirely related to monk splashes but I quite like this idea:
1) It goes someway to redressing the balance between armour wearers and icy wearers.
2) It increases the value of dragontouched for all AC builds (+3 dodge on 3rd tier)
3) It shifts focus towards newer content (mod8/9) and away from older (mod2/5) without hurting your build.
4) It shouldn't increase the max attainable AC.
5) it doesn't decrease the value of the chattering ring it took 40/60/80 titans to get.

[Borror0]

So this isn't entirely related to monk splashes but I quite like this idea.

Seriously? There are tons of reasons against it. but I'll name the most obvious one: gear dependency.

Ok, another one, additional sacrifice for defensive spec'd characters.

[branmakmuffin]

Seriously? There are tons of reasons against it. but I'll name the most obvious one: gear dependency.

Making the game more Monty Haul to make up for another problem of Monty Haulness (and for sake of argument I'm assuming the rgrX/mnk2 build is a problem with Monty Haulness) will probably lead (eventually) to more Monty Haulness.

[Borror0]

A dodge AC bonus on a shield would help.

If you really want to go down the inflation road, there are better ways to do it.

Turbine could consider:

1. Changing the bonus type on IR into a non-stackable one. Then, adding named times with the same bonus type.
2. Adding new feats or enhancements limited to S&B, or favoring it at least.

All of these are much better fixes than a +4 Dodge shield.

A +4 Dodge shield would just kill any possible variety in shield, unless shields all get +4 Dodge bonus. But then, it becomes a bit stupid. Turbine finally got around their phobia of +5 Mithril TS named loot. We are about to see a choice of Tower Shield worth wearing, depending out the rest of our gears, specs and preferences. At least, if Turbine play their cards correctly. A +4 Dodge shield would kill that possibility and make S&B even more gear depend than it is, when we should aim at reducing the gear dependency of S&B.

Even if you have given up of deflation, there are better ways than more Dodge bonuses.

[Aspenor]

If you really want to go down the inflation road, there are better ways to do it.

Turbine could consider:

1. Changing the bonus type on IR into a non-stackable one. Then, adding named times with the same bonus type.
2. Adding new feats or enhancements limited to S&B, or favoring it at least.

All of these are much better fixes than a +4 Dodge shield.

A +4 Dodge shield would just kill any possible variety in shield, unless shields all get +4 Dodge bonus. But then, it becomes a bit stupid. Turbine finally got around their phobia of +5 Mithril TS named loot. We are about to see a choice of Tower Shield worth wearing, depending out the rest of our gears, specs and preferences. At least, if Turbine play their cards correctly. A +4 Dodge shield would kill that possibility and make S&B even more gear depend than it is, when we should aim at reducing the gear dependency of S&B.

Even if you have given up of deflation, there are better ways than more Dodge bonuses.

Explain why these things are "better." It's not like there's any variety in shields right now anyway. Everyone and their sister uses the hound tower shield.

Additionally, I don't really see why reducing gear dependency is desirable, at least not from the Turbine's perspective (making money). Gear dependency begets longer subscription times, as many people are "forced" to grind yet another item.

I wouldn't be against the adjustment of the Icy Raiment to something like a profane bonus, luck bonus, or some other type that isn't dodge, either. However, unless they make it some kind of bonus that isn't currently available on gear or via spells, people will view it as a horrid nerf.

[Tanka]

...but I'm not saying Monk splash needs nerfing, just the opposite.

With your example, Evil Outsiders, pure Pally will do significantly more DPS than Monk splash, and have higher Str and Cha too.

1 Monk is not a problem unless you bolt it on a Rgr.

Let's see if the forums will let me post this now.

Any class that adds something as significant as 3-7 AC is overpowering. No class offers that much of an AC boost from one level.

Let's also talk about Pal18/Mnk2 that takes Defender of Siberys. They have an outrageously high self-buffed AC, and it only goes up from there.

It's these builds that devalue the standard S&B build entirely, which is the problem. The build that should be best at tanking isn't. They're mediocre. They do less damage and have lower AC than someone who builds a Lawful character and splashes Monk.

[Tanka]

I wouldn't be against the adjustment of the Icy Raiment to something like a profane bonus, luck bonus, or some other type that isn't dodge, either. However, unless they make it some kind of bonus that isn't currently available on gear or via spells, people will view it as a horrid nerf.

I wouldn't bother with a profane bonus, since there are currently no profance bonuses to AC.

A luck bonus or natural armor bonus, sure. Maybe even type it the same as the Bard song for extra kick.

[Borror0]

Explain why these things are "better." It's not like there's any variety in shields right now anyway.

I can think of at least two reasons:

• It allows Turbine the possibility to great a variety in shields.
• It is easier for Turbine to create more attractive shield than this one, in the future. (Which is good because it introduces new grinds.)

I don't really see why reducing gear dependency is desirable, at least not from the Turbine's perspective (making money).

I disagree. Gear dependency is bad, because it makes it harder for the new players and those who play very little to play end game content. In other words, it artificially reduces the content, which is not good. It's a turn off for these players, and that is bad for Turbine.

Players tend to grind for better gear as the criteria is not whether or not the gear is essential but if it's better (think +3 tome).

Thus, ideally, Turbine would have at least two "layers" of gear. One that is good and fulfills the basic needs and another that is slightly better and that would be ground for by the hardcore gamers. Having a gap as big as it is now, though, is unacceptable. A poorly equipped player cannot compete.

It is obviously not fun, and not good for business.

However, unless they make it some kind of bonus that isn't currently available on gear or via spells, people will view it as a horrid nerf.

I meant a new bonus type.

[Aspenor]

I wouldn't bother with a profane bonus, since there are currently no profance bonuses to AC.

A luck bonus or natural armor bonus, sure. Maybe even type it the same as the Bard song for extra kick.

Pretty sure the bard song is a dodge bonus, not positive though.

The advantage of making it a profane bonus is that you can then introduce other items with the same bonus that would not stack, thus giving people variety.

Unless it was a natural armor bonus that stacked with barkskin (which is an ENHANCEMENT bonus to natural armor, interestingly enough) would be viewed as a horrid nerf, and wouldn't go over well.

Luck wouldn't be terrible. Is Recitation a luck AC bonus?

[Borror0]

Any class that adds something as significant as 3-7 AC is overpowering.

Anyone remember pre-M4 Aura of Good?

[Borror0]

Pretty sure the bard song is a dodge bonus, not positive though.

It is, but not sure on how it behaves with IR since I don't have one.

The advantage of making it a profane bonus is that you can then introduce other items with the same bonus that would not stack, thus giving people variety.

Exactly.

Unless it was a natural armor bonus that stacked with barkskin

Pretty sure that this is what Tanks meant, since he has plenty of D&D knowledge.

Is Recitation a luck AC bonus?

Yes, it is.

[Tanka]

Luck wouldn't be terrible. Is Recitation a luck AC bonus?

It is.

Anyone remember pre-M4 Aura of Good?

That required Pal3 to unlock +3. Otherwise it was just 2.

[Borror0]

That required Pal3 to unlock +3. Otherwise it was just 2.

I know. Reminding everyone that bonus was lowered from +2 to +1.

By the way, I said Aura of Good. Not Bulwark of Good.

[Tanka]

Pretty sure that this is what Tanks meant, since he has plenty of D&D knowledge.

I'm not even sure DDO has it coded that way. The question is: Does the DT Armor with +4 Natural Armor Bonus stack with a Ranger's Barkskin?

It does need to be changed so that it does, that way there's a reason to go DT over IR. As it stands, the only reason is "Levik's 3," and even that is suspect.

[Tanka]

I know. Reminding everyone that bonus was lowered from +2 to +1.

By the way, I said Aura of Good. Not Bulwark of Good.

The saves were also +2, changed to +1.

[Raithe]

There are, obviously, 2 different problems being discussed in this thread. One is monk splashing, the other is ranger DPS and the free TWF feats.

Monk splashing:
1) Adds 6 to saves (2 in each save)
2) Gives wisdom armor class bonus and allows wis items and spells to be +2-3 AC
3) Gives a combat feat
4) Centered bonuses & stances when fighting with monk weapons
5) Possibly evasion

Ranger DPS:
1) Favored enemy
2) Ram's Might
3) Tempest 10%+ bonus
4) Free TWF feats (and ranged - which are also quite powerful)

Monk splashing actually benefits Paladins a little more than Rangers - they can get evasion out of the mix, and making Paladins better at DPS wouldn't fix any of the problems, it would just change the titles of threads. As the arms race between rangers/paladins/barbarians continues, I find it amusing that the classes that should have the highest sustainable DPS potentials - fighters and rogues - are becoming more and more marginalized.

I don't really like any of the so-called fixes in this thread. The best fix, IMO, is to simply create content as if you hadn't already ruined your game mechanics, and make many of the benefits of splashing overkill. It's one of the advantages of a D20 system, as well as a disadvantage.

Even with that, however, Ranger DPS still needs some nerfing. Ram's Might should be +2 strength at most. Favored enemies should work per PnP and enhancements to damage should be limited to +2. Tempest should be 5% + superior TWF.

And paladin capstone enhancements shouldn't be implemented as currently specced.

[Borror0]

Does the DT Armor with +4 Natural Armor Bonus stack with a Ranger's Barkskin?

No. Otherwise we would have heard about it now.

It does need to be changed so that it does, that way there's a reason to go DT over IR.

Given how random DT crafting is, I'd rather not.

[Tanka]

No. Otherwise we would have heard about it now.

Given how random DT crafting is, I'd rather not.

Which is another topic, obviously. True randomness is annoying, hence why DT is such a flop overall.

[Cold_Stele]

I won't even go near the DT armor, and consequently the quests either.

That's because of the randomness btw, not because of how pimp I look in my BP of Destruction...