So if the ranger monk splash is overpowered... what do you do about it?

[noinfo]

[QUOTE=branmakmuffin;2049247]As you point out, part of that is from finesseable stat-damaging weapons (just go ahead and say wounding rapiers of puncturing). But that's not anything directly related to Rangers, so tinkering with Rangers, Ranger/Monks or Ranger/Rogue/Monks is not going to do anything about that.

...QUOTE]

But also the way FE works on most things gives significant DPS against most mob types, this is an issue with Rangers and allows othewise low dps Rangers to excell at DPS against a great many mob types in game.

[bobbryan2]

But also the way FE works on most things gives significant DPS against most mob types, this is an issue with Rangers and allows othewise low dps Rangers to excell at DPS against a great many mob types in game.[/QUOTE]

That's not an 'issue,' that's just the class. it's the same with rogues. Dex based rogues can still do good DPS.

It's because those two are DPS classes.

[noinfo]

But also the way FE works on most things gives significant DPS against most mob types, this is an issue with Rangers and allows othewise low dps Rangers to excell at DPS against a great many mob types in game.

That's not an 'issue,' that's just the class. it's the same with rogues. Dex based rogues can still do good DPS.

It's because those two are DPS classes.[/QUOTE]

But becomes an issues when mob types are limited.

[Borror0]

Rubish

Not it's not. Think about it. Even if Dex-based, you still have higher DPS, thus, your AC should be higher!

You don't understand the hypocrytical nature of your argument. You want to restrict 1 or 2 areas of your percieved imballance (I believe the issue lies elsewhere), but reject the concept that if such a change is implemented that it should not be applied to all things consistantly.

Explain me how multiclassing for skills is unbalancing.

/wait

Why should a Pally who takes 1 level of fighter be as good at intimidate as a full fighter? Pro rata it too. UMD same thing.

Anything wrong with that? Again, how is it unbalancing?

I am not arguing practicality of change here, I am arguing consistancy.

That's stupid. If something is not doable, why argue for it at all? Wasting our time?

[Cold_Stele]

Pally/Monk is not unbalanced, neither is Ftr/Monk.

So it's not Monk that needs nerfing...

[noinfo]

Not it's not. Think about it. Even if Dex-based, you still have higher DPS, thus, your AC should be higher!
--> addressed opinion of that in previous post

Explain me how multiclassing for skills is unbalancing.

/wait

Anything wrong with that? Again, how is it unbalancing?

--> actually I don't really care if they multi class to gain their skills, but if you think that someone who has put stat points into wis to get a ac bonus is over powered then you may also wish to address cross classing for skills could also be considered an issue

That's stupid. If something is not doable, why argue for it at all? Wasting our time?
--> not do able? of course it can be done all it needs is a complete respec option, and of course you wouldn't want to make a change to the ranger splash without a full respec option would you?

Lets try and summarise our differences here [though we are not going to agree] and please if I have not understood your argument please let me know [I am not trying to put words into your mouth]

1. You believe that S/B should have the highest AC because they lack dps ie they are giving up a second weapon.
[Please remember here that I do think S/B need some help]
While it is possible for S/B to increase their dps by going 2 handed when they need it, it defeats the purpose.

2. I believe that a dex/wis based ranger with splash has given up hp and offensive power to gain that ac. They have burned 2 stats into it and really the S/B has burned none. [I am only going to address dps weapons here, not getting into a nerf wop debate] I would suggest that much of the extra dps of the [dex] ranger comes from FE which is intended to be a situational bonus but in practicality is not. This is what needs to be addressed [I believe].

Proposed solutions:

1. You believe a nerf is required and there have been many suggestions provided by others as to how it should be done.

2. I believe that adjustments should be made to the ranger but not in the same area as you believe. I also believe that build options should be made avaible to enhance the use of a sheild to generate addional armour class in the hands of someone trained. I would prefer a feat to unlock (any one of the sheild feats) followed by an enhancement line.

Lets face it I don't like anything about your solution or pretty much any solution I have seen preposed (just as I am sure you don't like mine). I don't see the ac bonus provided as any more beneficial that evasion, or gaining a massive number of feats or unlocking skills / or even taking a level of rogue at first level for the massive skill point boost etc. The multi class system as it is allows for some very powerful things to be done immeadiatly on gaining 1 level of a class. If you want to do it to one class, be fair and work a system that can be used to consistently apply the concept across each of the classes. I do not believe we have to take such drastic action because lets face it, multi class as is has always been a core part of the game and no matter what class you splash into, you gain a massive amount of extras in that first level, you and many others are caught up in the benefits provided by one.

[noinfo]

But also the way FE works on most things gives significant DPS against most mob types, this is an issue with Rangers and allows othewise low dps Rangers to excell at DPS against a great many mob types in game.

That's not an 'issue,' that's just the class. it's the same with rogues. Dex based rogues can still do good DPS.

It's because those two are DPS classes.[/QUOTE]

The key here is that they are situational DPS classes [Referring to Dex based builds only here] and should do very well in those situations.

[Borror0]

addressed opinion of that in previous post

Irrelevant.

actually I don't really care if they multi class to gain their skills, but if you think that someone who has put stat points into wis to get a ac bonus is over powered then you may also wish to address cross classing for skills could also be considered an issue

Non-sequitur. Plus, your sentence does not make any sense.

of course it can be done all it needs is a complete respec option

Wrong. It needs a FORCED skill respec and a complete respec feature.

The former is the problem.

You believe that S/B should have the highest AC because they lack dps ie they are giving up a second weapon.

It would be more accurate to say that I believe S&B needs better AC because it is the best way to balance S&B with non-S&B.

(Other means to mitigate damage can also be used.)

While it is possible for S/B to increase their dps by going 2 handed when they need it, it defeats the purpose.

I hope you are not trying to say that S&B can switch to THF and achieve identical DPS...

I believe that a dex/wis based ranger with splash has given up hp and offensive power to gain that ac. They have burned 2 stats into it and really the S/B has burned none.

What one has 'given up' is unimportant, it's how powerful it is in the end that should be balanced.

That's why we use "overpowered" and '"underpowered".

I don't see the ac bonus provided as any more beneficial that evasion, or gaining a massive number of feats or unlocking skills / or even taking a level of rogue at first level for the massive skill point boost etc.

Scale: A progressive classification, as of size, amount, importance, or rank.

[noinfo]

Irrelevant.

-->Extremely relevant.

Non-sequitur. Plus, your sentence does not make any sense.
--> More than happy to rephrase, you are not concerned about balance you just want S/B dominance of the ac area and other areas that may considered ballance issues due to multiclassing don't count because they may benefit your ideal build.

Wrong. It needs a FORCED skill respec and a complete respec feature.
--> gee a few extra lines of code to execute once off. Not so different to what you want to do with Rangers but at an even lower level to force a class respec.

The former is the problem.

--> and yet you have no hesitation in enforcing your reality onto others.

It would be more accurate to say that I believe S&B needs better AC because it is the best way to balance S&B with non-S&B.

--> To general a statement to lend any support to your agument

(Other means to mitigate damage can also be used.)

--> good I agree other methods certainly should also be used to help mitigate damage, S/B should be hard to hit (effectively) as well as survive better once hit.

I hope you are not trying to say that S&B can switch to THF and achieve identical DPS...

--> Please go back and re-read the statement and I am sure that you will see exactly what I am saying.
-->THF is poorly implemented and does not generate the same dps as 2 weapon fighting, but can increase your base dps over S/B

What one has 'given up' is unimportant, it's how powerful it is in the end that should be balanced.

--> Balance includes taking into account all areas not just those you deem important at the time. And it is hard to talk balance against a class that has had no support for a while. How about you compare apples for a change. A dex based fighter instead of a ranger and compare numbers.

That's why we use "overpowered" and '"underpowered".
--> Subjective at best as you are determined to look at 2 narrow areas. DPS and AC.

Scale: A progressive classification, as of size, amount, importance, or rank.

--> Quoted for a reason? Irrelevant.

[Angelus_dead]

Pally/Monk is not unbalanced, neither is Ftr/Monk.

Wrong, and wrong.

Sit pal14/monk2 and fig14/monk2 next to pal16 and fig16 and see if you still call them "not unbalanced".

The relationship between ran15/monk1 and pal14/monk2 is the similar to that between ran16 and pal16. (Except the monk splash gives even more benefit to the pally)

The reason you don't see many pal14/monk2 or fig14/monk2 builds running around is that by the time monks came out, rangers were already the definitively superior full-BAB class. Since they're all new rolls designed by players who've studied the rules, they stayed away for pal or fig in favor of ran.

[noinfo]

Pally/Monk is not unbalanced, neither is Ftr/Monk.

So it's not Monk that needs nerfing...

Solid logic.

[noinfo]

Irrelevant.
I hope you are not trying to say that S&B can switch to THF and achieve identical DPS...

There is also no reason a S/B can't take the 2 weapon fighting feats if they need to switch to DPS mode either, its not like the current shield feats add to active ac anyway, they are probably nice if you sit there blocking though.

S/B can hardly be called a build anyway. If you are a melee, you get it free. If it wants to actually be called a build, they need to actually give use something to "build" eg feats or enhancements that can be used specifically to enhance S/B FAM and TSM are bare minimums and can't even be taken by pally's.

[Borror0]

Extremely relevant.

Obviously, with no justification.

You are not concerned about balance you just want S/B dominance of the ac area and other areas that may considered ballance issues due to multiclassing don't count because they may benefit your ideal build.

Obviously. Of all the posters here, I am the one who do not care about balance. On what do you base this baseless accusation?

Plus, how does that related with the proposition that if I believe that monk splash is overpowered, I am forced to believe that multiclassing for skills is also overpowered.

gee a few extra lines of code to execute once off.

Riiiiight!

Not so different to what you want to do with Rangers but at an even lower level to force a class respec.

Extremely different. Anything I suggested does not require any FORCED respec.

and yet you have no hesitation in enforcing your reality onto others.

Uh, what?

Balance includes taking into account all areas not just those you deem important at the time.

What is important to look at his performances.

"Burning two stats " is unimportant. What matters is saves, Evasion or no Evasion, AC, DPS, HP, SR and skill scores. In other words, it is the manifestation of what you have given up that matters. For example, a lower Wis on a pure paladin means lower Will saves, except that lower Will saves on a paladin don't matter in the end, for how high they are already.

Even "giving up 20 HP" is not an appropriate examination of the situation, as it lacks the context. Loosing 20 HP on a 400 HP character with Evasion, good saves and good AC is much smaller loss than loosing 20 HP on a 320 HP character with poor saves, low AC and no Evasion.

What ultimately matters is how well the character plays in the game, not the 'numbers' he sacrificed.

Subjective at best as you are determined to look at 2 narrow areas. DPS and AC.

Intersubjectivety.

Quoted for a reason? Irrelevant.

Of course. You say they are "all the same", like if they couldn't be placed on a scale or if they would have the same value on an "power scale".

[Borror0]

S/B can hardly be called a build anyway. If you are a melee, you get it free.

True, it's not a build, it's a fighting style. I thought it was obvious.

Now, yes, you can build around S&B. It usually involves not talking no THF nor TWF feats and building around Armor Mastery, Tower Shield Mastery and aiming for significant AC. Some may also pick up Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery, and it is wise to get a good Intimidate score.

[Cold_Stele]

Wrong, and wrong.

Sit pal14/monk2 and fig14/monk2 next to pal16 and fig16 and see if you still call them "not unbalanced".

OK here's a long list of stuff Pally and Ftr WON'T have if they splash Monk.

1. Here's the big one - AC or DPS - because they'll be a Str build with lower AC or a Dex build with no recourse to FE Damage to make up the shortfall.

Seriously - a non-Rgr or Rog Dex build?

2. They will have to choose between 1 Rgr 1 Rog or 2 Monk - so it's UMD or Evasion, not both.

3. They will lose even more DPS (in already DPS weak classes) by not being able to take capstones - Weapons of Good or Weapon Alacrity - mod 9 Pally/Ftr is going to need these to keep up with DPS.

4. They lose yet more DPS spreading their stats paper thin. Pally would need to buy into all 6 stats if he wanted CE - no dumpstat = lower Str + Cha = less DPS.


So there you have it Pally/Monk would have to be a Str build with not spectacular DPS, or a Dex build with even less. No FE damage here to rely on.

Monk 1's not the problem, it's a class than can splash 2 levels of anything (Sorc1/Wiz1 maybe) and still come out uber the other side. You can't make a bad Rgr because all your feats etc are more or less pre-chosen for you and FE damage and STWF take care of your DPS. Hell you can even be a Rgr now, dump stat Dex to 11 and still end up with STWF.

[noinfo]

Of all the posters here, I am the one who do not care about balance. On what do you base this baseless accusation?

--> You are not interested in balance. That is a word you are throwing around to justify your position in the argument. You are interested in dominance of the S/B in the area of AC. You are not happy because this is no longer the case. [edit this is not a bad thing, people should be passionate about what they believe, but don't pretend it is all about ballancing things].

Plus, how does that related with the proposition that if I believe that monk splash is overpowered, I am forced to believe that multiclassing for skills is also overpowered.

Riiiiight!

-->No but it is a sign that you are not actually really interested in ballance, the fact that splashing anything provides you with massive bonuses, but you don't care about any of them except the one that directly stands in your builds way so it is a clear sign that perhaps balance is not really your concern.


Extremely different. Anything I suggested does not require any FORCED respec.
--> really? so how would you justify that to those who have placed a high stat in wisdom? I could just as easily say that those skill points are accessed again when you attain a higher level. No respec required. Not fair to either


What is important to look at his performances.

"Burning two stats " is unimportant. What matters is saves, Evasion or no Evasion, AC, DPS, HP, SR and skill scores. In other words, it is the manifestation of what you have given up that matters. For example, a lower Wis on a pure paladin means lower Will saves, except that lower Will saves on a paladin don't matter in the end, for how high they are already.

Even "giving up 20 HP" is not an appropriate examination of the situation, as it lacks the context. Loosing 20 HP on a 400 HP character with Evasion, good saves and good AC is much smaller loss than loosing 20 HP on a 320 HP character with poor saves, low AC and no Evasion.

--> if only it were 20 hp and I had 400 hp

What ultimately matters is how well the character plays in the game, not the 'numbers' he sacrificed.

-->And the whole floor of your arguement is based on why he plays so well. The monk ac bonus is not the reason, it is simply your bugbear (though not yours alone). Look at your argument from that of a dex based fighter and tell me where the imbalance lies from the monk splash?

[noinfo]

True, it's not a build, it's a fighting style. I thought it was obvious.

Now, yes, you can build around S&B. It usually involves not talking no THF nor TWF feats and building around Armor Mastery, Tower Shield Mastery and aiming for significant AC. Some may also pick up Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery, and it is wise to get a good Intimidate score.

It is obvious that it should hardly be called even a fighting style, it is the default fall back option. Why? because there is nothing worth taking that really enhances it. I really think it could be more, but a FAM and FTM are not enough to even make it interesting, and guess what? If you nerfed monk it still would not matter it would still be uninteresting. The Pally prestige coming out starts to do the right thing but there could have been far more in terms of tru shield enhancment lines.

[noinfo]

[QUOTE=Cold Stele;2052012]
So there you have it Pally/Monk would have to be a Str build with not spectacular DPS, or a Dex build with even less. No FE damage here to rely on.
[QUOTE]

And there is the major issue, the secondary one is making DPS more relevant thoughout quests so that those with a truely high dps can shine.

[Borror0]

No but it is a sign that you are not actually really interested in ballance, the fact that splashing anything provides you with massive bonuses, but you don't care about any of them except the one that directly stands in your builds way so it is a clear sign that perhaps balance is not really your concern.

Obviously, I am not interested in balance even though I posted I don't know how many post about paladins, while I don't even own a paladin. If you really believe I tackle only topics that concerns me, then you are in deep trouble explaining me how I end up caring about rogues as well. Probably because I have a secret rogue no one knows about, riiight?

Not trying to convince you, by the way. I don't care about what you think. I'm trying to ridicule what you said, because it is hilarious.

Look, what you've done is an ad hominem. You're trying to make my position look bad by motives. Whether you are right or wrong about my motives does not mean that I am wrong in my position, nor will it mean you are right. It would only mean I have faulty motives. Furthermore, it's an attempt at changing the topic, which usually means you realized your defense is weak and you are trying to dissimulate that. In other words, it can back fire.

Unless you clearly lay out for me why I should care about multiclassing for skills, I won't change my mind nor will you convince anyone.

Explain clearly, or shut up.

really? so how would you justify that to those who have placed a high stat in wisdom? I could just as easily say that those skill points are accessed again when you attain a higher level. No respec required. Not fair to either

Not similar, by any means. You would have to force the data to change on the character.

Suggested nerfs about monk splash don't go and lower everyone's Wisdom (and costing them creation points in the process). We cap the bonus they get to AC from their Wisdom. C'est tout. What you suggest is, by far, much more complicated and is way worse without the proper respec option. If Turbine did what you suggest, it would lead to anger greater than Abbot, M3.3 and the Evasion nerf together.

I don't know how you cannot see that.

if only it were 20 hp and I had 400 hp

Doesn't matter, the logic is the same.

Look at your argument from that of a dex based fighter and tell me where the imbalance lies from the monk splash?

What about THF? What about S&B? You're looking at it in a microscopic scale, that's unfair and dishonest.

[Vorn]

Late contributor. Apologies to those in the midst of their debate.

To the OP.

Perhaps one way to address the issue is to require burning feats to get the ability to multi-class monk. Ascetic Hunter and Ascetic Rogue would burn two feats for the 18/1/1 that folks are worried about. That's at least in accordance with the Eberron campaign materials.

To implement would be tricky, maybe a full feat respec upon log in--go see Fred and the first two feats that would have to be taken before any others would be the ascetic ones. For a new character on leveling up if you don't have or can't take the required feat you can't advance the character leveling process.

My objection isn't so much to the 18/1/1 build in and of itself--I think it's brilliant. I want it to cost something significant to have, however. Feats seems one possibility.

Ok, I'll end this and let y'all get back to bashing.