So if the ranger monk splash is overpowered... what do you do about it?

[manfredshw]

why just design bab20 with sixth attack chain, and stwf only works on sixth attack.
Then this will kill 18/1/1, because they lost bab, can't hit bab20, so tempest3 enhancement is useless for them, bacause you don't have sixth attack, stwf will not work on you unless you cast spells to make you hit bab20.

and also, change monk wis ac to be only works when you centered.

and I really tired to see so many balance issue and ranger overpowered post in the forums recentley. If you think class X is overpowered, why just roll for it. And I have a dream that all class in my server is all rangers, 18/1/1 is the best.

[Tanka]

Ok so lets have a look at a few things here:

Deal. This should be astoundingly funny.

1. These people with high ac's have dedicated not just 1 but 2 stats to this.

People going S&B have dedicated an astounding number of Feats, Dex points, items and Enhancements, which your Ranger hybrid doesn't need to dedicate, aside from FE: Defense. Which any Ranger can pick up, and any Ranger with a good AC should pick up. S&B tanks are the only ones who bother with Armor or Shield Mastery.

2. They are already capped in ac if they wear armour so they are already disadvantaged here [if you want to be really worried about ac, try seeing what would happen if these characters did not have to worry about armour dex limits)

S&B tanks, the ones who should be all about taking and mitigating damage, are worse off than the hybrids. Why? Because of their "monastic" training (that is; using a frontloaded class ability that greatly overpowers them)?

3. The ac bonus is far less an issue then people who take 2 levels of monk or rogue to get evasion.

That is shockingly wrong. Name one time where Evasion is an absolute must. If you say Enter the Kobold, I'll laugh at you.

4. Perhaps we should limit the unlocking of skills base on level taken, ie no more umd (the most powerful skill in game) based on 1 level of rogue or bard.

I'd like to direct you to the SRD's entry on multiclassing and skills. Specifically:

If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)

(Emphasis mine.)

Moving right along.

5. In the past, the only way to have the best ac was to be a dwarf due to enhancements.

Yes, and that's been wrong the whole time. I'm as big an advocate of removing Dwarven Armor Mastery as I am for reducing splash-Monk's Wisdom bonus to AC.

6. If you want s/b more valid, give all classes a s/b enhancment line that means something, +2 per rank would be very useful and make it worthwile to give up the 2nd weapon for in some conditions. No extra bonus is needed with armour as it already gives best protection in game +5mfp or dt full plate > ac 8 bracers only the dex of the wearer makes up the difference, didn't invest in a high dex? dont complain about your ac, the same as if you dont invest in str, dont complain about your pure dps. Worried that high dex characters might start using a shield? well, they won't get their wis bonus and that is what the complaint is about anyway, also why should people with the highest dexs not be the hardest to hit? Particulary at high level? That dragon that can chew through mfp like it is butter but can't hit the elf/halfling with lightning like reflexes seems reasonable to me.

Why buff S&B? The problem isn't any one thing. It's iterative attack bonuses increasing rather than decreasing. That's one of the unbalancing factors (the other being Enhancements, but we can save that for another argument). Suddenly, it makes sense to not always leave PA/CE/Rage on, it makes sense to try for at least some AC.

7. Instead of the garbage finesse feat, make all light/finessable weapons automatically require dex to hit, while I appreciate why barbs etc use wop rapiers it does seem like a joke.

Goes against the rules, I'm afraid. Light weapons aren't suddenly finesse only. You can bash someone in the head just as hard with a light mace than a heavy mace.

8. While we are talking limiting things, lets limit str damage based on weapon type, just like dex and armour, the might barberian raging with his wop dagger? don't really sound right to me.

Doesn't sound right to me either, but they're removing Crit Rage from the selectable Enhancements in M9. People will be grandfathered in, but for how long?

9. We could always go back to 2nd edition and limit con hp bonuses to non fighter levels, lets watch all the dwarfs/wf cry.

Try again.

To me this is just the latest knee jerk reaction to the fotm. There are already major balance issues listed above that should be looked at as well.

Yes, there are lots of balance issues. Just because there are others doesn't mean this one shouldn't be looked at first. Monks came in late, they should've forseen this.

I have 2 toons that use monk in them for various things including ac. 1 is a pure ac build, the second is a str ac build.
Both have reasonable ac's (neither has icy or chattering rings or dt +3 dodge bonus, I must have been one of the few to miss out before the adjusted loot tables in the subterain), the biggest issue to me is while I expect my ac build to be harder to hit, it should lack the killing power of my str build. In all except red named it doesn't. Make DPS matter more and things will start to ballance out, vary mob types or reduce the categories of fe and things will start to get back to ballance.

Again, that's more a problem with overabundance of magical weaponry and increasing iterative attack bonuses. Change it to decreasing attack bonuses and slowly it becomes less of a problem. Not a lot less, but a bit.

The biggest issue this game has is it's difference between the haves and the have nots.
Chattering ring
to an extent Icy Rainments
Are two ac items without peer and that is a major issue, IMO there should be the uber hard to get stuff like this but alway lesser more readily available items of a lesser value. If this was implemented then it should be considered to allow DT dodge bonus to stack with the chattering ring (best bonus for FP toons), this can be managed easily, for example the ring in Invaders that gives a +2 Natural Armour bonus become a dodge bonus. This bonus being a ring should be set not to stack with other ring dodge bonuses. A +1 ring dodge bonus could be found somewhere else but unbound. This actually makes an item useful again (considering how cheap +3 bark pots are and they give a better ac anyway) and reduces the differnce between toons with and without. The with should always be better because they put in the time and the effort, however the withouts are not 7 pts of ac behind. Shroud crafting was a step in the right direction, DT armour was 2 steps back and needs to be revised badly, both should include shields.

It isn't a difference between have and have nots. The problem is the overabundance if Dodge bonuses on items (sidenote: A_d, you're right. Just because the DMG allows Dodge bonuses on items doesn't mean we should have ten dozen of them. Or even more than one or two).

[redoubt]

That is shockingly wrong. Name one time where Evasion is an absolute must. If you say Enter the Kobold, I'll laugh at you.

Start laughing then.

The newest guy in my guild has played several mmos, but is new to this one. He's been here 3 or 4 months now. You'll have a hard time convincing him that evasion is not a requirement in this game. He went so far as to take 2 levels of, you guessed it, monk on his cleric to get evasion. He is very excited to have it and talks about it a lot in guild chat. (And its not that he is a bad player, I'd say he's better than many people who have been here since launch.)

SoS often puts "evasion needed" in the LFM. Is it a requirement? No. Technically, neither is a cleric, but is sure as heck helps!

Now if you are an uber Neo, have tons of cash for pots and scrolls and have all the great gear like greaves and such, then no... evasion is no big thing. If you are anything short of 99%tile, evasion is a huge boon to your character.

[Tanka]

Start laughing then.

The newest guy in my guild has played several mmos, but is new to this one. He's been here 3 or 4 months now. You'll have a hard time convincing him that evasion is not a requirement in this game. He went so far as to take 2 levels of, you guessed it, monk on his cleric to get evasion. He is very excited to have it and talks about it a lot in guild chat. (And its not that he is a bad player, I'd say he's better than many people who have been here since launch.)

SoS often puts "evasion needed" in the LFM. Is it a requirement? No. Technically, neither is a cleric, but is sure as heck helps!

Now if you are an uber Neo, have tons of cash for pots and scrolls and have all the great gear like greaves and such, then no... evasion is no big thing. If you are anything short of 99%tile, evasion is a huge boon to your character.

Intelligent play beats character and gear, any day of the week.

Does it help? Sure. Is it required? No.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Now if you are an uber Neo, have tons of cash for pots and scrolls and have all the great gear like greaves and such, then no... evasion is no big thing. If you are anything short of 99%tile, evasion is a huge boon to your character.

Yay Neo bashing! In fact, I've decided I'm taking that as a compliment that Neos are top 1% - in which case I will be booting myself and Tanka from the guild immediately.

3. Reduce the ability to use monk AC in some maner.

To the Original Post: 3 sounds good to me - either put a cap on the wisdom bonus to AC based on your ratio of monk level to level (DEV BONUS POINT: the code already exists for this in the 'amount of spell points for sorcs wearing power or wizardry items' source file) or simply just make it so the centered bonus and the wisdom bonus to AC only works when the monk is centered. It does seems strange that the 'centered' bonus doesn't require you to be 'centered'...

Garth

[yk49]

Maybe this is off-topic, but in our user's manual it is clearly stated that dodge bonuses only stack up to a maximum of 10 (page 74). And, that is obviously not the case in game.

Does anyone know about dev post or pnp rule referred to it?

* IR 4
* chat ring 3
* dodge feat 1
* alchemical rituals 2 (planned to be changed to different bonus type)
* haste buff 1
Thats already a 11...

* (imp) uncanny dodge 4-6
* dwarven giant dodger 4-
* inspire heroics 4
* air guard proc 1
* ...

[Angelus_dead]

Maybe this is off-topic, but in our user's manual it is clearly stated that dodge bonuses only stack up to a maximum of 10 (page 74). And, that is obviously not the case in game.

Hiliarious- when was that manual added?

It must have been copy and paste from some other product (like NWN2 maybe). Just reading the rest of the page shows drastic differences from how DDO works: the existence of a Confused status and using Heal skill to cure poison are only two of the more obvious ones.

PS. I have confirmed that those portions of the DDO manual were copied from the NWN Documentation. Obviously, that means they have minimal relationship to the rules of either D&D nor DDO.

[redoubt]

Yay Neo bashing! In fact, I've decided I'm taking that as a compliment that Neos are top 1% - in which case I will be booting myself and Tanka from the guild immediately.



To the Original Post: 3 sounds good to me - either put a cap on the wisdom bonus to AC based on your ratio of monk level to level (DEV BONUS POINT: the code already exists for this in the 'amount of spell points for sorcs wearing power or wizardry items' source file) or simply just make it so the centered bonus and the wisdom bonus to AC only works when the monk is centered. It does seems strange that the 'centered' bonus doesn't require you to be 'centered'...

Garth

Not bashing at all. Most Neos I've run across are incredibly well equipted and know how to play the game. For them, evasion is probably not a big deal.

But, your reply is missing the point. To anyone less equipted, evasion is a huge benefit. But, now even I, seem to be sidetracking my own thread... lol.

Edit: Tanka's reply is missing the point. You answered the OP. Thank you.

[rimble]

What they should do is similar to what they did with Sorc's doubling of SP items. They gain a percentage of their Wisdom bonus to AC based on what percentage of Monk they are.

This.

[noinfo]

1. People going S&B have dedicated an astounding number of Feats, Dex points, items and Enhancements

-->lol, really? No S/B feat gives ac, DR maybe and that is useful for mitigating damage if blocking [and they do this much better than rangers] so what feats are you talking about? Dex points is another poor example MFP + max ranks in FAM is 6 course if you are a dwarf you automatically get the wonderful armour bonus there, so all you need is a 16 dex to start with or 14 with +2 tome or 13 with +3. Yep lot of investment in dex there. Enhancements is what? 12 points? Those rangers usually have all racial dex bonus and class bonus enhancements for their ac 16 points i think not counting fe stuff?

The only thing a S/B has to invest in is gear so don't go kidding yourself, this should have been your strongest argument but you have nothing to support it at all.


2. S&B tanks, the ones who should be all about taking and mitigating damage, are worse off than the hybrids. Why? Because of their "monastic" training (that is; using a frontloaded class ability that greatly overpowers them)?

-->Compared to evasion? Using a level to unlock skills? Take a level of fighter and get every Martial Weapon and Shield and Armour in game? Now that sounds a bit overpowered. Evasion at level 2 yep overpowered.

3. That is shockingly wrong. Name one time where Evasion is an absolute must. If you say Enter the Kobold, I'll laugh at you.

-->A must? No but that is like saying ac is a must for everything. How long have Barberians dominated things prior to the ranger? Gee they have such uber ac.

4. I'd like to direct you to the SRD's entry on multiclassing and skills.

-->So you want to quote the SRD with multi classing? Ok I will take an xp hit, now leave the wis bonus alone. Oh you were just using it to support your argument not mine?

5. Yes, and that's been wrong the whole time. I'm as big an advocate of removing Dwarven Armor Mastery as I am for reducing splash-Monk's Wisdom bonus to AC.

-->Agree

6. Why buff S&B? The problem isn't any one thing. It's iterative attack bonuses increasing rather than decreasing. That's one of the unbalancing factors (the other being Enhancements, but we can save that for another argument). Suddenly, it makes sense to not always leave PA/CE/Rage on, it makes sense to try for at least some AC.

-->I would also like to see a reduced attack rate like in PNP and agree that it would make it better to force a choice as to whether to turn these on or off.

6. Goes against the rules, I'm afraid. Light weapons aren't suddenly finesse only. You can bash someone in the head just as hard with a light mace than a heavy mace. So does what your requesting, and good luck with that light mace.

--> Now you are worried about going against the rules? lol but yes light weapons aren't finesse only, but they should be. Also to think that everyone is going to use brute strength using a dagger etc and require them to have a feat is a joke, but it is in the rules so dex based characters pay for the feat.

7. It isn't a difference between have and have nots. The problem is the overabundance if Dodge bonuses on items (sidenote: A_d, you're right. Just because the DMG allows Dodge bonuses on items doesn't mean we should have ten dozen of them. Or even more than one or two).

-->Who are you kidding? Of course it is, particulary with S/B who are completely gear dependant. Do you think you can seriously make a high ac S/B without a chattering ring? An overabundance of dodge items, yeah right, the problem is a few hard to get ones makes others stand out dramatically.

Seriously most of what you have said is pretty weak, you quote SRD when it suits you and ignore it when it doesn't. At the end of the day someone with a dex of 36+ should be much harder to hit then someone with 22 dex and not just by a little bit. Could S/B use some help? Yep, but considering that anyone can use S/B without any significant investment except in gear +13 dex +12 AP and compare it to the investment made by the ranger stat wise is a joke.

[noinfo]

Intelligent play beats character and gear, any day of the week.

Does it help? Sure. Is it required? No.

This does not help your argument either.

[noinfo]

why just design bab20 with sixth attack chain, and stwf only works on sixth attack.
Then this will kill 18/1/1, because they lost bab, can't hit bab20, so tempest3 enhancement is useless for them, bacause you don't have sixth attack, stwf will not work on you unless you cast spells to make you hit bab20.

This is good.

[noinfo]

Edited for additional physics inclusion.

Originally Posted by noinfo
So if a dragon was going to bite you would you:
1) Use the combination of your obscene Strength, godlike Reflexes and impermeable Fullplate to completely nullify the dragon's attack.

--> lol that is really funny, str yep, godlike reflexes in movement restricting armour right and Fullplate. To me it sounds like a packed lunch.


2) Get eaten because you tried to deflect it with your Monk training while holding Rapiers

--> lol only person slow enough to get eaten is the poor old tin man.

A very strong person wears fullplate like a not-so-strong one wears cloth. [If they were born on Krypton maybe, for the real world you might want to think this through]

Example taken: SCA Mock Battles with real steel fullplate and bamboo/duct tape swords(so they don't kill each other, they just bruise the cr@p out of one another instead). You do realise why people stoped wearing armour don't you? Basically heavy armour was just useless against the weapons of the day and dexterity became far more important.

You might want to take a reality check with this one [funny in a fantasy game I know]. Have your Hercules suit up and sprint 400m and let me know the time it takes and how they are feeling. I am not talking modern military armour now, but the old full plate. Pretty sure my granny in a wheel chair would win that race.

[noinfo]

This.

If you apply it to every muliclass splash ability. Evasion, unlocking skill levels etc.

[Borror0]

If you apply it to every muliclass splash ability. Evasion, unlocking skill levels etc.

Evasion could use some unfront-loadingness. Skills? Nah.

[Emili]

1. People going S&B have dedicated an astounding number of Feats, Dex points, items and Enhancements

-->lol, really? No S/B feat gives ac, DR maybe and that is useful for mitigating damage if blocking [and they do this much better than rangers] so what feats are you talking about? Dex points is another poor example MFP + max ranks in FAM is 6 course if you are a dwarf you automatically get the wonderful armour bonus there, so all you need is a 16 dex to start with or 14 with +2 tome or 13 with +3. Yep lot of investment in dex there. Enhancements is what? 12 points? Those rangers usually have all racial dex bonus and class bonus enhancements for their ac 16 points i think not counting fe stuff?

The only thing a S/B has to invest in is gear so don't go kidding yourself, this should have been your strongest argument but you have nothing to support it at all.


2. S&B tanks, the ones who should be all about taking and mitigating damage, are worse off than the hybrids. Why? Because of their "monastic" training (that is; using a frontloaded class ability that greatly overpowers them)?

-->Compared to evasion? Using a level to unlock skills? Take a level of fighter and get every Martial Weapon and Shield and Armour in game? Now that sounds a bit overpowered. Evasion at level 2 yep overpowered.

3. That is shockingly wrong. Name one time where Evasion is an absolute must. If you say Enter the Kobold, I'll laugh at you.

-->A must? No but that is like saying ac is a must for everything. How long have Barberians dominated things prior to the ranger? Gee they have such uber ac.

4. I'd like to direct you to the SRD's entry on multiclassing and skills.

-->So you want to quote the SRD with multi classing? Ok I will take an xp hit, now leave the wis bonus alone. Oh you were just using it to support your argument not mine?

5. Yes, and that's been wrong the whole time. I'm as big an advocate of removing Dwarven Armor Mastery as I am for reducing splash-Monk's Wisdom bonus to AC.

-->Agree

6. Why buff S&B? The problem isn't any one thing. It's iterative attack bonuses increasing rather than decreasing. That's one of the unbalancing factors (the other being Enhancements, but we can save that for another argument). Suddenly, it makes sense to not always leave PA/CE/Rage on, it makes sense to try for at least some AC.

-->I would also like to see a reduced attack rate like in PNP and agree that it would make it better to force a choice as to whether to turn these on or off.

6. Goes against the rules, I'm afraid. Light weapons aren't suddenly finesse only. You can bash someone in the head just as hard with a light mace than a heavy mace. So does what your requesting, and good luck with that light mace.

--> Now you are worried about going against the rules? lol but yes light weapons aren't finesse only, but they should be. Also to think that everyone is going to use brute strength using a dagger etc and require them to have a feat is a joke, but it is in the rules so dex based characters pay for the feat.

7. It isn't a difference between have and have nots. The problem is the overabundance if Dodge bonuses on items (sidenote: A_d, you're right. Just because the DMG allows Dodge bonuses on items doesn't mean we should have ten dozen of them. Or even more than one or two).

-->Who are you kidding? Of course it is, particulary with S/B who are completely gear dependant. Do you think you can seriously make a high ac S/B without a chattering ring? An overabundance of dodge items, yeah right, the problem is a few hard to get ones makes others stand out dramatically.

Seriously most of what you have said is pretty weak, you quote SRD when it suits you and ignore it when it doesn't. At the end of the day someone with a dex of 36+ should be much harder to hit then someone with 22 dex and not just by a little bit. Could S/B use some help? Yep, but considering that anyone can use S/B without any significant investment except in gear +13 dex +12 AP and compare it to the investment made by the ranger stat wise is a joke.

Well, except for one thing... the synergy of Ranger/Monk is more pronounced in DDO then in DnD due to the loot and enhancement system (items supporting high dex AC such as raiments)... ie.) In PnP 3.5 it's quite possible to build a finnesse Pally/Monk or a finnesse Fighter/Monk and have the same overall AC equal of a Ranger/Monk because they can have the same exact dex and wis stats... In DDO the ranger has up to +3 more dex and +3 ac vs favored enemies (which they abound) while the Pally may add bulwark to catch up slightly (plus affects everyone near) so really is no real self boost - it's an everyone boost... the fighter since his ac enhancement bonus entails use of armour is out in th cold....

So go figure you want a high AC character based on dex... Ranger/monk is it in DDO while if this was PnP your options would be much much more. Thus less build options exist in DDO then DnD 3.5.

BTW... People stopped wearing armour because of firearms. The Late middle ages the purpose of the Claymore was to breach armour... beacause on the field of battle the masses of foot soldiers were eliminated by longbow/charge (piercing armour took greater force then bow or most men with lesser weapons alone could do) leaving mostly the noblemen in their heavy armour to fight the ends by lance and other very heavy hand weapons...

The battle of Kircholm in 1605. 3000 of polish calvary destroyed the army of 12,000 Swedish troops with loses of 120 compared to 9000+ on the Swedish side. (how? one main factor was they were heavily armoured and the opposition was not.)

Plate armour could have consisted of a helmet, a gorget, pauldrons, couters, vambraces, gauntlets, a back and breast plate with a culet, a fauld and tassets, a skirt, cuisses, poleyns, greaves and sabatons. It was personally made to the wearer. While it looks heavy, a full plate armour could be as light as only 40 pounds if well made, and so well spread over the body that a fit man could run, or jump into his saddle. That it was necessary to lift a fully armed knight onto his horse with the help of pulleys is a myth originating in Mark Twain's A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, and has no historical base. Even knights in enormously heavy jousting armour were not winched onto their horses.

[noinfo]

1. Nothing.

2. Let turbine raise the to-hit and hit points of mobs even more.

3. Reduce the ability to use monk AC in some maner.

4. Reduce the tempest bonus in some maner.

5. ???

1. Good option, fix sb instead, give them something to invest in to warrant the ac.

2. Considering how few hp relatively they have, I can see how this would be fair, but we can balance this against those with more hp by having mobs that bypass fortification, now the lower ac toons with lots of hp can share the fun.

3. As long as you fix every other multiclass bonus in a similar manner.

4. Already done and I agree with the typing of the bonus.

Try 5. Give high dex toons armour they can actually wear and get an armour bonus from, they will still have lots more ac then the rest but didn't they spend their stat points on dex so they wouldnt get hit?
Con bonuses are not limited in hp 500 hp bards anyone?
Str bonuses are not limited over 40 str toons doing massive dps
Dex bonuses are limited in ac.

Take away monk bonus and give us armour we can wear equivalent to full plate +5 that allows our dex bonus to work and I'll be happy with that. That way I won't have invest in 2 stats for ac. BTW a 13 dex does not count as investing stat points for a S/B max, though I suppose with DT armour I should revise that to an 11.

[noinfo]

Well, except for one thing... the synergy of Ranger/Monk is more pronounced in DDO then in DnD due to the loot and enhancement system (items supporting high dex AC such as raiments)... ie.) It's quite possible to build a finnesse Pally/Monk or a finnesse Fighter/Monk and have the same overall AC equal of a Ranger/Monk because they can have the same exact dex and wis stats... In DDO the ranger has up to +3 more dex and +3 ac vs favored enemies (which they abound) while the Pally may add bulwark to catch up slightly (plus affects everyone near) so really is no real self boost - it's an everyone boost... the fighter since his ac enhancement bonus entails use of armour is out in th cold....

So go figure you want a high AC character based on dex... Ranger/monk is it in DDO while if this was PnP your options would be much much more. Thus less build options exist in DDO then DnD 3.5.

The pally monk can use UMD for shield wands and the ranger will often bark others as well, so really he and the pally are pretty similar there, can't argue with dex for that 1-2 ac point, pallys bonuses to saves combined with evasion make up for that though, not to mention smite etc, loh etc. You might want to consider the Prc of the pallys before going down this line as before they come out for the pally they are pretty comparable with ranger monks.

No doubt that fighters struggle in this area though, no really synergy here at all, but we all know that fighters need some work.

And I agree that FE is an issue. To me it is more of an issue than monk wis bonus.

[noinfo]

Evasion could use some unfront-loadingness. Skills? Nah.

Why not? I am sure a lot of the rogues get sick of the hybrids. And the most unbalancing thing in the game is UMD. 1 level of rogue or bard unlocks it.

Also how many Pallys take a level of fighter just to unlock intimidate + get tower shield and a bonus feat.

[Taojeff]

1. Nothing.

2. Let turbine raise the to-hit and hit points of mobs even more.

3. Reduce the ability to use monk AC in some maner.

4. Reduce the tempest bonus in some maner.

5. ???

1. No this is probably the most overpowered-unbalanced thing in the game. It causes people to who dont play this overpowered class grief. It also makes the game too easy for said classes leading to increased boredom. It causes bad play style, if I had a copper for everytime I saw a monk splash run off because the dont need the rest of the party (sorc too).

2. No way, that is unbalanced already.

3. Cap the amount of AC you can get based on monk levels. Make it just monk weapons, or change it to insight bonus.

4. Nothing wrong with the tempest bonus.