So if the ranger monk splash is overpowered... what do you do about it?

[branmakmuffin]

it is not.

Yes, I see in the SRD that it is not. However, that still leaves the question "Why nerf Dodge bonuses so that they don't stack?"

[honkuimushi]

As for the ac section it is done exactly like in PnP and doesnt need to be "fixed". Heres the text/link from/to the SRD:http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm[
AC Bonus (Ex)
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.

Notice that the Monk starts gaining an AC Bonus at level 5. In DDO they start Gaining it at level 2. I have no problem with removing that and making AC increases beyond the normal +5 an enhancement which is available at higher levels. Even putting it at 1st level would make it less attractive for splashing.

Now, I don't agree that the Ranger/Monk Combination is inherently unbalanced. Spalshing Monk is only available to Lawful characters and that rules out any combinations with Barbarian or Bard. And since we have a 3 class maximum, it limits you to 2 other classes.

You also have a problem with MAD. A monk needs every stat except for Intelligence and Charisma. But for those going for a really high AC, they need Combat Expertise and need at least a 13 Intelligence. Also, this combo is mostly good for finesse characters. Even with the Monk splash, I'm not sure a Strength based Ranger could get their Dex and Wisdom high enough to get a Higher AC in robes than with a Mithril Breasplate or the Delving Suit.

Now, the Icy Rainments are a complication. My faored solution is to allow Dodge bonuses to stack from different items to stack, but with a limit between +4 and +10. The amount of equipment that grants the bonus should be increased so that the best bonuses are reserved for one type of character. The bonus for DT Armor should probably be increased to +4 so that it is equal to the item using the same slot and so it doesn't nullify the Chattering Ring.

If you do that and make it so that mobs do not always attack at their highest bonus, I think you'll find that Ranger/ Monks are nice, but not overpowered. I strongly oppose tying the Wisdom bonus to Monk level because that goes completely against PnP rules and screws over those who made these characters and invested tomes and bound items. This isn't like Evasion in heavy armor where it was pointed out from the beginning that it was against the rules and a potential problem.

When you look at the total bonus from Wisdom, it's nice, but not extreme. Especially since you have to forego using armor. A +5 mithril chainshirt will give you +9 to AC. A +5 mithril breastplate or the Delving Suit will give you +10. You won't cap your dex bonus until 20 or 22. If you take my suggestion for making Dex cap increasers more common, that could go up to 24 or 26. +5 Mithril full Plate can get +11 to Armor and at least 3 more fom dex. The best bracers are currently +8 and I wouldn't say that those are easily available. +7 or +6 are more available. So without Armor you start down about 2 AC. This is where the Rainments come in, but hopefully, that will be dealt with.

Now for wisdom bonus, a 14 Wisdom gives you +2, a +6 item will give you +3 and a +2 tome will give you +1. So for a Tome and 6 build points, you get +6 to AC. You could get 1 more if you took 2 levels of monk and took the wisdom enhancement and put a point from level ups or a +3 tome in wisdom. +6 is 1 less than a +5 heavy shield. So if you start out about 2 points lower than someone with the Delving Suit and if they put on a +5 Heavy shield, they're up by 3. You can go Tempest for 2 to 4 more, but the shield user can use the Alchemical recepie to get an additional +1.

It seems to me that the Wisdom bonus balances out fairly close to a shield. The dodge bonus issue creates a problem, but that's really a separate issue. I do think that shields need some love. The allowable enchantments should probably be increased and something like Greensteel crafting should probably be added. I also support passive DR for using a shield. But I really don't see a problem with the numbers from the Wisdom boost to AC.

[branmakmuffin]

You promised more parentheses.

I'm not that kind of boy.

[SableShadow]

Yes, I see in the SRD that it is not. However, that still leaves the question "Why nerf Dodge bonuses so that they don't stack?"

Dodge stacks with itself ad infinitum; if we want to reduce the gap between the casual and hard core player, we will need to reduced the delta between min and max AC at least somewhat...dodge bonus is the biggest offender.

[Scalion]

I think that after moving so far away in terms of enhancements and stats in DDO, perhaps the armor itself should be reworked.

The 'Best' base heavy armor is full plate, 8 AC, 1 dex
The 'Best' base light armor is padded, 1 AC, 8 Dex

Of course there are things like mithril and enhancements to allow more AC to be gained from this gear, but this is the core gear, and it's based around PnP rules where most content is not extremely far from the 20-30 AC mark.

Maybe there needs to be something better than full plate introduced for heavy armor wearers. In theory, plate wearers trained in combat should be the most surviveable.



I do think there are plenty of other good suggestions in the thread, but this is mine. Rather than nerfing a build, bring the other classes up to par, and design content appropriately.

[branmakmuffin]

Seriously?

Dodge stacks with itself ad infinitum; if we want to reduce the gap between the casual and hard core player, we will need to reduced the delta between min and max AC at least somewhat...dodge bonus is the biggest offender.

What is this alleged "gap" between casual and hard core players? I'm as casual as it gets. To me, it sounds like gear envy. I don't care how uber other players' characters are. Gear is a direct result of time spent playing. If someone plays like an insomniac on crack, they're gonna have more and better gear.

I am actively recruiting members for The Pirates Who Don't Care About Anything(tm).

[SableShadow]

What is this alleged "gap" between casual and hard core players? I'm as casual as it gets. To me, it sounds like gear envy. I don't care how uber other players' characters are. Gear is a direct result of time spent playing. If someone plays like an insomniac on crack, they're gonna have more and better gear.

I am actively recruiting members for The Pirates Who Don't Care About Anything(tm).

Huh? Who are you, and what have you done with Bran?!?!?!

Isn't this at odds, even slightly (even frickin' *slightly*?), with previous debates we've had? Multiple threads of "power gamer" vs "casual gamer" and all that? Respec option vs Reroll? Greensteel reconstruct vs "stuck with what you have"?



Whatever.

I'm one of the "power gamers"; I have all this ****. I think the gap is too large.

[Tanka]

But in reverse? Where each non-monk level decreases your bonus? Otherwise, monks at level 1 would be incredibly handicapped, as they would have awful AC, and would continue to have terrible AC until late in their careers...if they ever got there.

Incorrect. Let me elucidate:

14Rgr/1Mnk/1Rog gets 1/16th of his Wisdom bonus applied to his AC (rounded up).
1Mnk gets 1/1th of his Wisdom bonus applied to his AC (rounded up).

[branmakmuffin]

Huh?

Isn't this at odds, even slightly (even frickin' *slightly*?), with previous debates we've had? Multiple threads of "power gamer" vs "casual gamer" and all that? Respec option vs Reroll? Greensteel reconstruct vs "stuck with what you have"?

Some people take the game way too seriously. I don't play with those people. Which is why I don't care what kind of gear their characters have. In the game, I don't care who they are or what they do.

On the forums, they're rather silly and they write silly things.

[SableShadow]

Some people take the game way too seriously. I don't play with those people. Which is why I don't care what kind of gear their characters have. In the game, I don't care who they are or what they do.

On the forums, they're rather silly and they write silly things.

I'm linking this, and may be quoting you in the future. Just so you know.

[branmakmuffin]

I'm linking this, and may be quoting you in the future. Just so you know.

Just because I make comments about things on the forums does not mean such things are really that important to me.

Take respecs. I've always maintained that the reason I don't want respecs is simply because I don't like them, and that if they added them, I'd probably even use them. And as I've also written many times, my biggest beef with pro-respeccers is that they won't admit they want respecs simply because they like them, as if they need to find a better reason than that and convince everyone else of the rightness of their position.

[ShaeNightbird]

I don't care about respecs one way or another. I don't care about uber gear. I don't care about having Monk splashed on my Ranger. I have fun when I play, with the gear I have, which would not be considered Uber in the least by power gaming folk. That's really all that matters to me.

[branmakmuffin]

Monk splashed on my Ranger.

Quick, get a pre-moistened towelette!

[ShaeNightbird]

Quick, get a pre-moistened towelette!

Too wimpy. Gotta use bleach to get it out.

[SableShadow]

Just because I make comments about things on the forums does not mean such things are really that important to me.

ok

Take respecs. I've always maintained that the reason I don't want respecs is simply because I don't like them, and that if they added them, I'd probably even use them.

ok. Note that I'm on record in that thread saying I'd probably *not* use the respec mechanism I was proposing....I would hate having to relevel.

On the other hand, some of the other mechanisms proposed I'd use too much...I get bored, and like to try out new things in all MMOs.

And as I've also written many times, my biggest beef with pro-respeccers is that they won't admit they want respecs simply because they like them, as if they need to find a better reason than that and convince everyone else of the rightness of their position.

Right. And I'm for reducing the gear gap between power gamers and casuals because it would improve my...something. I guess. Since I have all this gear already.

[SableShadow]

I don't care about respecs one way or another. I don't care about uber gear. I don't care about having Monk splashed on my Ranger. I have fun when I play, with the gear I have, which would not be considered Uber in the least by power gaming folk. That's really all that matters to me.

I follow you. And that's good! I think (my opinion) that the delta between the gear I ground out and the gear a casual can probably see is just too large.

*shrug*

Opinion, I guess...kinda tired of arguing against myself, really.

[ShaeNightbird]

I definitely consider myself a casual gamer. My highest lvl character is 9, and that's fine with me too, I'll get her leveled up eventually, doesn't matter to me when that is. I like all my characters, and the ones that suffer from less than optimal builds due to inexperience, oh well. I improve what I can, and the things I can't? Whatever. It keeps things challenging, that's for sure!

[branmakmuffin]

I follow you. And that's good! I think (my opinion) that the delta between the gear I ground out and the gear a casual can probably see is just too large.

I'm sure it is large. But why is it a problem? Do you think it hurts the game? For all the razzing I do of elite power-gamers on the forums, I really don't care about who they are or what they do or what gear their characters have in the game.

Is that you think too many casual players will leave in frustration if they don't get loot easily enough? My position is (and has been consistently) that too much easily obtained loot is bad for the game because the game is already way too Monty Haul. Sure, I have characters with Monty Haul loot (Monty Haul for the levels they are, that is), but if it all disappeared, if the AH disappeared, if the brokers disappeared, I'd like the game better.

[smatt]

Let's face it..... Giving an ability to a DDO player, and then taking it away is like giving a 3 year old a piece of candy, letting them tak a bite... And then ripping it out of their hand... You'll get the same reaction everytime. Seeing as at least 30-40 of the game population ran out and built ranger/mopnk high AC/DPS or Stat-Damage 2 weapon fighting easy button uber toons, nerfing them would be a bad idea. The tears would be so bad Stormreach would flood and then were would we be

I always throw out the same option, and some others do as well.....

1. Passive scaling by level DR/AC on medium and heavy armor. Has top end up being a significant amount... Meaning not 1's and 2's.....

2. Non-shroud crafting enhancements on med/heavy armor. Say you can add +3 AC to Medium, and +5 to heavy respectively. And perhaps a DR ritual as well.

3. Rethink the clickie type enhancements for fighters.... Rangers get these really cool new level 18 enhanements and fighters get another clickie? Palis the same... when all clickies are going they're way over the top.... BUT when those clickies run out..... Booooooo

I think they've really let rangers get out of hand... I'm not calling for a nerfing.... Nor complete balance..... Just some love for sword and boards and every other non-ranger melee.....

[branmakmuffin]

I think they've really let rangers get out of hand... I'm not calling for a nerfing.... Nor complete balance..... Just some love for sword and boards and every other non-ranger melee.....

Bah, eliminate classes altogether. Classes are lame. GURPS doesn't have classes. 'Nuff said!