So if the ranger monk splash is overpowered... what do you do about it?

[redoubt]

I'm not opposed to improving S&B (in fact I'd like to see that happen).

However, if the effort goes into further powering characters are the mobs going just continue to inflate as well???

[geoffhanna]

1. Nothing

[maddmatt70]

1: Reduce Favorite Enemy Enhancment bonus'
1a: Increase Mob Diversity within a Module.
2: Change Tempest AC Type (Done)
3: Provide more options for S&B players to match/Exceed the ac of a Monk splash.

I think 1a is the key. If they made alot more mob diversity in mods or gave us more content per mod with several different raid bosses/ red name types this would weaken rangers substantially..

[SableShadow]

Not every build has to be Ranger/Monk/Rogue. There's Cleric/Monk, Paladin/Monk, Rogue/Monk...

Oh, right, proving a point here.

Forcing any sort of artificial loss due to multiclassing is deliberately against what the system intends. Is the Monk Wisdom bonus to AC overpowering? For certain subsets of builds, absolutely.

What an intelligent Developer should do is limit the amount of Wisdom that can be granted to your AC based on a ratio of Monk:Total Level. So, at the moment, a level one Monk splash would receive 1/16th of his Wisdom score to AC (rounded up, for fairness). In other words, 1 AC, unless he somehow has a +17 Wisdom bonus (that's a 44 Wisdom, by the way).

Will it anger lots of those who did the Monk splash long before this change was introduced? Yes. Which is also why a respec mechanism needs to be in place before such a radical change.

Nice suggestion, well thought out and expressed.

[Nick_RC]

I think 1a is the key. If they made alot more mob diversity in mods or gave us more content per mod with several different raid bosses/ red name types this would weaken rangers substantially..

Yeah if this actually becomes a reality.

We're experimenting with different ways to make damage worthwhile again for both mundane classes and spellcasters.

Raid boss variability is the only thing that will affect anything as if its anything orange or less just w/p those mobs and FE or crit rage or power surge be damned.

To be fair lets look at the mobs that came out in last module.

Drow
Scorpions (vermin)
Wolves(animals)
Mephits (nuetral outsiders)
Elementals
kobolds (reptiles)
Giants
Ice flensers
Winterwolves (magical beasts)

In all honesty there is quite a bit of variation there (mobs yes red names not so much)and some of those most definately arnt your run of the mill FE selections. The problem is who really cares if it aint a FE when stat dmg is so powerful (on hard and elite) and they stat dmg 10% faster anyway...Then red named kobold, efreet, elemental, abberation, giant and dragon and undead.

I wish i had something more consructive to say but im not sure how best to proceed either...

Edit : I dont believe an overt nerfing is the right way as it unfairly impacts those players who built there toons under those guidelines which they were given - without a full respec mechanism (which i highly doubt will be implemented). I think bolstering of other abilities is the way to go or more discreet 'external nerfs' like a reduction in stat damage effectiveness combined with more varied mobs per module. I generally look at offensive measures as thats where the majority of my experience lies - il leave the defense to borror0 and others.

[Drwaz99]

- Add some form of shield-only profane AC bonus
- Add some form of shield-only DR (like hound shields, but more!)

I think DR combined with the large selection of guards that we currently have is the way out of this hole.

I agree with this. While I do not know the official DDO rules, so forgive me if I am off, but when I think of a paladin with a Swords and a huge Tower Shield, I can see enemies hitting the shield way more often in combat than the character. The difference between blocking DR is minimal to me when you compare Large Shield and Tower, esp if you have to take a feat to use. I also think that if you can use a Tower shield there needs to be something along the line of at lest DR 10, but since you have such a huge shield you attack slower than you normally would. I would leave most shields alone except maybe up the AC bonus a bit and Double the AC bonus for a tower shield and add an automatic DR 10, but slow your attack rate down 10-15%.

I just think in real life a larger shield/armor gives you more protection, but with more protection/DR, you lose the ability to attack or move really fast.

[Junts]

1. Fix multi-classing
2. Fix multi-classing
3. Fix multi-classing

Had they actually done it the right way none of this would even be a problem.

If you dont know what im talking about here it is.

If you decide to multi-class the levels of your classes can not be more than 1lvl apart. I.E. A 11thlvl wizard/rogue would have to have 6lvls wizzy and 5lvls rogue(or vice-a-versa)to take no penalties.

The penalty for for being more than 1lvl "off" is 20% of your xp.

Every race has a favored class. So if you wizard rogue was a halfling you could do 9 wizzy and 2 rogue and not suffer any penalty because a halflings favored class is rogue and not subject to the penalties. However, if you add anyother class it must be within 1 lvl of the wizard lvls because for the purpose of multi-classing its almost like the rogue levels dont exist.

Edit: fixed xp penalty on multi-classing

also, everyone would make humans, who treat their highest level class as favored class.

[Junts]

I agree with this. While I do not know the official DDO rules, so forgive me if I am off, but when I think of a paladin with a Swords and a huge Tower Shield, I can see enemies hitting the shield way more often in combat than the character. The difference between blocking DR is minimal to me when you compare Large Shield and Tower, esp if you have to take a feat to use. I also think that if you can use a Tower shield there needs to be something along the line of at lest DR 10, but since you have such a huge shield you attack slower than you normally would. I would leave most shields alone except maybe up the AC bonus a bit and Double the AC bonus for a tower shield and add an automatic DR 10, but slow your attack rate down 10-15%.

I just think in real life a larger shield/armor gives you more protection, but with more protection/DR, you lose the ability to attack or move really fast.

my high ac s/b toon has some guards (right now, radiance on my dt, plus 2% chances for healers bounty and concordant; I've also had a variety of offensive guards on my dt sovreign)

I don't think guards are useful to the s/b ac toon, and s/b ac is possible (i raid buff to 75, and in m9 will raid buff to 83, sustainable (shortest buff being haste/recite). The only way I can see guards being effective for s/b builds in this way is if their activation chance scales upward with your ac, so that they have some chance of going off; that doesnt maek any sense, so I don't think its a good solution.

[Treerat]

1. Nothing.

2. Let turbine raise the to-hit and hit points of mobs even more.

3. Reduce the ability to use monk AC in some maner.

4. Reduce the tempest bonus in some maner.

5. ???

1. That way lies the death of the game more surely than any other change. Keeping the situation the same when the situation is already making people upset just means those people more convinced that the developers are not interested in the health of the game.

2. Bad idea; that was done with Gianthold and the the modules since and instead of increasing the number of viable classes its shrunk them to a point where "not a ranger, not a barbarian, not a cleric, not a buff & PK/ FoD Sorc? Sorry not letting you into the raid."

3. Best possible fix. As has been said over and over - make the maximum wisdom bonus a function of monk levels (and please do the same for paladin save bonuses). Yes people will cry that their "uberized fotm multiclass" is not longer the best tank and the best dps: these people would cry just as hard if other classes where brought up to their levels because they are no longer at the top of the food chain.

They'll throw a tantrum for a month or so, threaten to leave the game (a handful might even cancel their accounts for a month), and generally clutter the forums and game with their whining about how unfair the change was. Then they'll quitely come back and act like nothing ever happened. As for the few that actually do quit? Odds are those are the ones who have quite a few black marks against them for violating the games code of conduct. Getting rid of them just saves Turbine from losing more customers to the misanthropes need to abuse everyone else to make themselves feel better.

4. Make it a shield bonus so it won't stack with the shield spell (and get them the equivalent AC of having a shield without sacrificing damage). Still useful, just not allowing them to reach game-breaking levels.

[vainangel]

Monk AC should be directly tied to MONK level.
Limit the AC bonus you get per level range of monk... problem fixed.

[Deathseeker]

1. Change monk wis bonus to type Shield
2. Change the dodge feat to give +1 ac while THF, TWF but +2 AC while using a shield
3. Allow the dodge feat to be taken multiple times (and fighter/monk bonus feat elligible)

This indirectly hurts the Tempest III / Monk splash the most. Monks lose the benefit of shield clickies, but can use feats to get some permanent ac back if they so choose. This helps fighters (which need the help). This helps S&B (which desperately needs help).

4. Add a +4 Dodge Ring.

This is a big deal. It wont stack with Icey Raiments. Therefore it helps everyone else. You could wear this and the chattering, or Icey and the chattering, or two rings, or Dragontouched and this. All would end up giving you +7 dodge.

5. Adjust as necessary mob to-hits to account for this overall increase in AC to everyone (except tempests and TWF).

Not sure that needs to be done...I dont know the to-hits of every mob. But if all of this raises AC overall a little too much, then they can adjust the mob BAB a bit.

The beauty of this approach...IT DOESNT SUBSTANTIALLY NERF ANY CLASS THAT IT BREAKS BUILDS. The worst is the Tempest III/Monk splash loses 4ac. We all recognize that build is unbalanced. 4 ac is not game breaking on a build that has top notch dps and top notch ac. If the lack of shield clickies in exchange for dodge feats is a problem for monks, throw the monk a few enhancements to bump their ac by 1 or 2. Monks dont need to be hurt or helped, so in the end I'd rather see them neutral.

This would substantially fix the AC system.

[gfunk]

5) raise the AC and diversity of monsters in mod 9. I think that many of the monk spashes out there suffer from a lowish to hit bonus, that is even beginning to show itself at the higher end content. Against non-favored enemies, these builds are much less competitive in their damage output, partially do to inability to hit all the time. Introduce more high AC humanoids such as drow, dwarves, and other rarer mobs like dragons etc.. and the favored enemy edge will be greatly diminished (Without touching the build)

[redoubt]

1. Change monk wis bonus to type Shield
2. Change the dodge feat to give +1 ac while THF, TWF but +2 AC while using a shield
3. Allow the dodge feat to be taken multiple times (and fighter/monk bonus feat elligible)

This indirectly hurts the Tempest III / Monk splash the most. Monks lose the benefit of shield clickies, but can use feats to get some permanent ac back if they so choose. This helps fighters (which need the help). This helps S&B (which desperately needs help).

4. Add a +4 Dodge Ring.

This is a big deal. It wont stack with Icey Raiments. Therefore it helps everyone else. You could wear this and the chattering, or Icey and the chattering, or two rings, or Dragontouched and this. All would end up giving you +7 dodge.

5. Adjust as necessary mob to-hits to account for this overall increase in AC to everyone (except tempests and TWF).

Not sure that needs to be done...I dont know the to-hits of every mob. But if all of this raises AC overall a little too much, then they can adjust the mob BAB a bit.

The beauty of this approach...IT DOESNT SUBSTANTIALLY NERF ANY CLASS THAT IT BREAKS BUILDS. The worst is the Tempest III/Monk splash loses 4ac. We all recognize that build is unbalanced. 4 ac is not game breaking on a build that has top notch dps and top notch ac. If the lack of shield clickies in exchange for dodge feats is a problem for monks, throw the monk a few enhancements to bump their ac by 1 or 2. Monks dont need to be hurt or helped, so in the end I'd rather see them neutral.

This would substantially fix the AC system.

Changing monk wisdom bonus to type Shield causes pure monks to lose 4 AC due to the loss of shield clickies (as you mentioned earlier, but missed in the recap.)

I think finding a way to limit wisdom bonus that does not reduce an actual monks AC would be important to the fix. (The not hurting pure monks part, not that the wisdom bonus must change.)

[Deathseeker]

Changing monk wisdom bonus to type Shield causes pure monks to lose 4 AC due to the loss of shield clickies (as you mentioned earlier, but missed in the recap.)

I think finding a way to limit wisdom bonus that does not reduce an actual monks AC would be important to the fix. (The not hurting pure monks part, not that the wisdom bonus must change.)

I felt like I covered that here...

If the lack of shield clickies in exchange for dodge feats is a problem for monks, throw the monk a few enhancements to bump their ac by 1 or 2. Monks dont need to be hurt or helped, so in the end I'd rather see them neutral.

I wouldnt mind seeing, in addition to the type change, monks be given 1 or 2 ac via the enhancement system. Remember, monks cant inherently use shield wands, and clickies only last 30 seconds. Yeah, there are cookies, but that's not really a part of the build system. So 1 or 2 permanent AC in exchange for the shield clickies is very fair to the monk. It would be non-dispellable and permanent as well.

[bobbryan2]

Nothing should be done unless players that splashed monk have a sort of respec recourse.

Add a respec, and we'll talk about balance.

[Drwaz99]

my high ac s/b toon has some guards (right now, radiance on my dt, plus 2% chances for healers bounty and concordant; I've also had a variety of offensive guards on my dt sovreign)

I don't think guards are useful to the s/b ac toon, and s/b ac is possible (i raid buff to 75, and in m9 will raid buff to 83, sustainable (shortest buff being haste/recite). The only way I can see guards being effective for s/b builds in this way is if their activation chance scales upward with your ac, so that they have some chance of going off; that doesnt maek any sense, so I don't think its a good solution.

Forgive me, but I'm not quite up to all of the DDO terminology, I didn't mention guards anywhere, or did I and just call it something else?

[dopey69]

Not every build has to be Ranger/Monk/Rogue. There's Cleric/Monk, Paladin/Monk, Rogue/Monk...

Oh, right, proving a point here.

Forcing any sort of artificial loss due to multiclassing is deliberately against what the system intends. Is the Monk Wisdom bonus to AC overpowering? For certain subsets of builds, absolutely.

What an intelligent Developer should do is limit the amount of Wisdom that can be granted to your AC based on a ratio of Monk:Total Level. So, at the moment, a level one Monk splash would receive 1/16th of his Wisdom score to AC (rounded up, for fairness). In other words, 1 AC, unless he somehow has a +17 Wisdom bonus (that's a 44 Wisdom, by the way).

Will it anger lots of those who did the Monk splash long before this change was introduced? Yes. Which is also why a respec mechanism needs to be in place before such a radical change.

very nice ideas and ez to implement too only thing i would change is absolutely no ac boost for one lvl monk as you aready have your tempest pluss to ac and imo ...and i have a tempest ranger we would get along fine without the one ac imo . and no i never splashed monk

[Kaldaka]

5) raise the AC and diversity of monsters in mod 9. I think that many of the monk spashes out there suffer from a lowish to hit bonus ...

Umm ... Aren't these the builds with the 38 DEX? ... With Weapon Finesse to boot?

Not sure, but I think based on the TWF math and the loss of one BAB for the monk level(s), doesn't that means their to-hit bonus would be equal to a S/B fighter with 32 STR? ....

[cforce]

5. Include some shields with more total AC bonus, either through a base increase like the DT armor has, or a significant bonus, or both.

(And this is what my bet is on for Mod 9.)

[sephiroth1084]

In a game with functionally infinite XP gain, this is silly and pointless.

What they should do is similar to what they did with Sorc's doubling of SP items. They gain a percentage of their Wisdom bonus to AC based on what percentage of Monk they are.

But in reverse? Where each non-monk level decreases your bonus? Otherwise, monks at level 1 would be incredibly handicapped, as they would have awful AC, and would continue to have terrible AC until late in their careers...if they ever got there.