So if the ranger monk splash is overpowered... what do you do about it?

[Borror0]

for ac they would have to have a very high dex to begin with for this to matter, means poor every thing else.

Wrong. Hafling 10/17/14/9/17/8 could a way to do it.

Dex, Con and Wis are all that matter on that build anyway. What is "everything else"?

to get a good ac you need to have ce, ce drops EVERY time you cast a spell.

Eh, no, since you are not melee good AC is not the same.

You give up sp and if you go for evasion you miss out on the highest levels of spells currently in the game

Miss out on...what exactly? Nothing most will care about. Plus, by level 20, you're missing out on nothing.

You're only missing out on SP, again, your request was "best at AC".

DPS and a lot of it, which I would have thought is a major concern.

Prove it. I doubt it, seriously.

HP and a lot of it

False and utterly wrong. Yes, I had to say both, because that's how inaccurate that is.

Can you give me an example where one was based on removal or limiting of a class ability [not enhancement mind you]?

I don't understand the question.

[noinfo]

Wrong. Hafling 10/17/14/9/17/8 could a way to do it.

Dex, Con and Wis are all that matter on that build anyway. What is "everything else"?

--> so you give up 2 levels of sp + spell pen, a lower con for less hp, then farm for ac items, for a non melee toon? Good luck with that. I have seen some Cleric/Monks out there but my 28pt normal clerics are not threatened at all and guess what? They are not even halfling or dwarf clerics either.

Eh, no, since you are not melee good AC is not the same.
--> so mobs say, "oh you are not a melee, I won't try as hard to hit you then" ?
--> no at high levels it is a waste to try, you are far better off having a few more hp and then hitting yourself with a quickened heal spell if you have somehow put yourself in melees way.

Miss out on...what exactly? Nothing most will care about. Plus, by level 20, you're missing out on nothing.
You're only missing out on SP, again, your request was "best at AC".
-->No, your request was "over powered". These examples you have provided can achieve really good ac's but the penalty you pay for them is massive and IMO vastly outways the benefits in most cases.

I can just see a Dex based Figher/Monk splash Shroud run. It would be a clerics nightmare and set aside several hours for that, same for Pally.


False and utterly wrong. Yes, I had to say both, because that's how inaccurate that is.
--> I do believe in fairies, I DO, I DO! I had to say that because of how true it is lol.

I don't understand the question.
--> Give me an example where a nerf was required to remove or limit a core class ability and not just an overpowered enhancement or interpretation?

[Borror0]

These examples you have provided can achieve really good ac's but the penalty you pay for them is massive and IMO vastly outways the benefits in most cases.

I do agree with you, for clericc. I do not think the trade off is worth it, but if you care about AC, which was your set condidtion ("With a ranger (no other class) the best option IMO is to take a splash level, if you are going ac."). If you want to discuss overpowered, fine, but that was not what you had said.

For rogues, paladins, fighters and rangers, monk splash is overpowered. Oh, and don't get me started on druids!

I do believe in fairies, I DO, I DO! I had to say that because of how true it is lol.

Of course, instead of making a nice HP breakdown proving wrong, you just say some silly stuff...

Way to argue...

Give me an example where a nerf was required to remove or limit a core class ability and not just an overpowered enhancement or interpretation?

LOL, do you realize how FAR it is from what you were replying to?

What I originally said was:
"Oh, by the way, not all FotM need to be nerfed. But, yes, sometimes, the best fix is a nerf or contains a nerf."

Why do you ask me this question? Totally unrelated.

[noinfo]

I do agree with you, for clericc. I do not think the trade off is worth it, but if you care about AC, which was your set condidtion ("With a ranger (no other class) the best option IMO is to take a splash level, if you are going ac."). If you want to discuss overpowered, fine, but that was not what you had said.

--> Sorry about that you are right I did say ac [went back and checked]. However I stand by that for all of those others the trade off for AC is not overpowered as without FE their dps is truely ordinary and casting power is significantly reduced.

Of course, instead of making a nice HP breakdown proving wrong, you just say some silly stuff...
--> Like your reply, where if you said it x2 it had to be true?

For rogues, paladins, fighters and rangers, monk splash is overpowered. Oh, and don't get me started on druids!
--> No it isn't.



We done?

[Borror0]

[...] without FE their dps is truely ordinary and casting power is significantly reduced.

False or irrelevant, depending on the point you are trying to make.

In each case, monk splash allows the best AC build that class could make. If you imply the opposite, you are wrong. Try build any AC build better than the monk splashed build using the same class as a base, you'll fail each time. Why? Because the trade offs for monk splash are ridiculously small compared to other options offered to you.

If you rather mean that these builds are not overpowered compared to non-AC builds, that's irrelevant. If that is true, it only proves that defensive builds are underpowered (which is something I have been saying since M6, if not before) but not that monk splash is not overpowered.

Of course, instead of making a nice HP breakdown proving wrong, you just say some silly stuff...

Ever heard of burden of proof?

You make an argument, then you have to prove it is true. I don't have to bother proving it wrong.

For rogues, paladins, fighters and rangers, monk splash is overpowered. Oh, and don't get me started on druids!

See above replies.

Oh, and *laugh* at druid/monk not being overpowered.

[noinfo]

In each case, monk splash allows the best AC build that class could make. If you imply the opposite, you are wrong. Try build any AC build better than the monk splashed build using the same class as a base, you'll fail each time. Why? Because the trade offs for monk splash are ridiculously small compared to other options offered to you.

--> You pull me up for making a statement without evidence, where is the proof for this?

If you rather mean that these builds are not overpowered compared to non-AC builds, that's irrelevant.

--> Why?

If that is true, it only proves that defensive builds are underpowered (which is something I have been saying since M6, if not before) but not that monk splash is not overpowered.

--> Proof?

Ever heard of burden of proof?

--> And yet you provide none for your statements.

You make an argument, then you have to prove it is true. I don't have to bother proving it wrong.



Oh, and *laugh* at druid/monk not being overpowered.

--> Yep, they absolutely ruled in the last speed shroud. Hang on, there were none...

[Borror0]

In each case, monk splash allows the best AC build that class could make. If you imply the opposite, you are wrong. Try build any AC build better than the monk splashed build using the same class as a base, you'll fail each time. Why? Because the trade offs for monk splash are ridiculously small compared to other options offered to you.

Hope this will be enough.

Kepp in mind that:

• Dex-based TWF will out-DPS a S&B character of the same class.
• Monk splash allows higher AC that non-monk splash.

Why?

It only proves that defensive builds are underpowered, not that monk splashed is balanced.

Monk splash gives AC which is, by nature, defensive. There's a trade off. If making the smallest trade off for AC (splashing monk and investing 4 creation points in Wisdom) is underpowered then it means that ANY sacrifice for AC is worthless. Compare monk splashed to S&B and tell me again that it is balanced.

And yet you provide none for your statements.

You say "[You loose on] HP and a lot of it".

I say: "Prove it."

IYep, they absolutely ruled in the last speed shroud. Hang on, there were none..

Haven't downloaded Module 10 yet?

[noinfo]

Hope this will be enough.

--> Where does it discuss in depth trade offs? Irrellivant

Kepp in mind that:

• Dex-based TWF will out-DPS a S&B character of the same class.
• Monk splash allows higher AC that non-monk splash.

--> With weapons currently available, yep, would like to see the numbers on this though. It would be nice to see what type of break down we would get for a straight fighters, one S/B and one dex based 2 weapon fighter using non magical weapons (while not useful for balance purposes it would give an idea of how much weapons cause to unballance it as well)

It only proves that defensive builds are underpowered, not that monk splashed is balanced.
--> How?

Monk splash gives AC which is, by nature, defensive. There's a trade off. If making the smallest trade off for AC (splashing monk and investing 4 creation points in Wisdom) is underpowered then it means that ANY sacrifice for AC is worthless. Compare monk splashed to S&B and tell me again that it is balanced.

You say "[You loose on] HP and a lot of it".

I say: "Prove it."
--> so you are saying that con would not be lower to the point of loosing more hp? And that with stat allocation the con could be lower by 6 or more?

Haven't downloaded Module 10 yet?
lol sorry Bor haven't had time for that...

[Borror0]

Where does it discuss in depth trade offs? Irrellivant

I thought you were able to do the analysis yourself.

Monk splashed builds have:

• Evasion
• Better AC
• Better DPS

So, tell me, what do S&B have?

Don't tell shield blocking, TWF builds can do that as well.

With weapons currently available, yep, would like to see the numbers on this though.

When monks were released, I told everyone that even they were out-DPSing my S&B intimitank.

I think it gives you an idea of how far behind S&B is. Others get access to better weapons and other abilities favoring TWF...

How?

If you think that even the best AC build sucks, then I think it means there is a problem with AC builds. Agreed?

so you are saying that con would not be lower to the point of loosing more hp? And that with stat allocation the con could be lower by 6 or more?

HP will be lower. Significantly? Not really.

[noinfo]

Bor we have covered the other parts of your post and gone around and around on them, I am going to leave it at that.

If you think that even the best AC build sucks, then I think it means there is a problem with AC builds. Agreed?
--> I said that they would have to lose significant DPS and HP. Does that mean they suck? No, it depends on what you want to achieve.

--> Is there a problem with AC builds in general yes, there are quite a few issues with them. Quite frankly I am not going to list my opinions on them in case you disagree and I get sucked into another hundred pages :-).

[Borror0]

I said that they would have to lose significant DPS and HP. Does that mean they suck? No, it depends on what you want to achieve.

Not true, when comparing to a S&B character, which is why monk splash is overpowered.

[krud]

Why not follow PnP and allow (pure) monks to use any weapon and retain their monk abilities? The only thing a monk gives up in PnP by not using monk weapons is their flurry of blows, and a ki strike. Why all this bending over backwards to justify the kama? If you are going to add all this centered garbage to force monks into a certain setup, then why not do the same for splashes? What is the purpose of being centered?

[Borror0]

If you are going to add all this centered garbage to force monks into a certain setup, then why not do the same for splashes?

It wouldn't fix everything. Oh sure, it'd end the monk splash with high DPS like Monster or Exploiter, but it would not fix the problem.

[krud]

It wouldn't fix everything. Oh sure, it'd end the monk splash with high DPS like Monster or Exploiter, but it would not fix the problem.

I was kinda being facetious. I wondered what would people think if monks could use any weapon; dual wield khopeshes and rapiers without penalty. Would people complain it's too overpowered? How would it compare to the rgr/mnk splash? It's probably balanced fairly well with a pure ranger, but add in the monk splash and it falls behind. Doesn't that give some indication how overpowered that 1 mnk splash is?

I still think the solution is to not remove the wis AC bonus, but not make it so much of a no brainer. If the wis AC bonus required being centered, and granted only 2x monk level AC bonus if uncentered, that would be a good compromise. Also give back the tempest AC but make it separate from tempest (with tempest and TWD as prereq). That would still give rgr/mnk the option of max AC but requires more investment. They could go with a little less AC, and have a feat, AP or level to spare. The options would still be available to them, but not without some serious consideration about trade-offs. Take more monk for more AC, but then you might have to give up the 1 rog. Go with less AC but then open up the 1 rog option, and so on. It would open a lot more variety even among the rgr/monk splashes, while not nerfing it into oblivion.

[Borror0]

I still think the solution is to not remove the wis AC bonus, but not make it so much of a no brainer.

No brainer compared to what? And also, what compared to what?

What choice(s) do you think should not be a no brainer:

• Str-based DPS w/ monk splash compared to Str-based DPS w/o monk splash?
• Str-based DPS w/ monk splash compared to S&B?
• Dex-based w/ monk splash compared to Str-based DPS w/o monk splash?
• Dex-based w/ monk splash compared Dex-based w/o monk splash?
• Dex-based w/ monk splash compared to S&B?

And, of those you listed, which do you think would be fixed by what you suggest?

All of them?

[krud]

No brainer compared to what? And also, what compared to what?



What choice(s) do you think should not be a no brainer:

• Str-based DPS w/ monk splash compared to Str-based DPS w/o monk splash?
• Str-based DPS w/ monk splash compared to S&B?
• Dex-based w/ monk splash compared to Str-based DPS w/o monk splash?
• Dex-based w/ monk splash compared Dex-based w/o monk splash?
• Dex-based w/ monk splash compared to S&B?

And, of those you listed, which do you think would be fixed by what you suggest?

All of them?

The obvious cutoff is 18rgr for tempest 3, so I will focus on that as the ranger break point. I'll compare whatever rgr/mnk combo is currently in use to how it would be affected by this proposal. Right now the best option is 18rgr/1mnk/1rog regardless of dex or str build. They get full wisdom AC bonus, full umd and rogue skills and give up what? one FE and a capstone. That's the no-brainer part, why go pure ranger? why go more than 1 monk?

With this proposal if they choose to keep using their max dps weapon setup, then they are limited to wis AC bonus of 2 if they splash 1 monk (they lose ~2-4 AC). They can make up some of it by taking TWD and spending some AP for the tempest AC. The trade-off for more AC is to spend a feat they normally never take (TWD) and a few AP. The idea of TWD as a prereq for tempest AC makes sense thematically.

Now what are the options left for a monk splash? Take another level of monk to raise your wis AC bonus to 4. That effectively cuts them out of taking 1 rog if they want tempest3. If they want max AC they still have to spend the feat and AP for it. Still uber, but not without cost, more than they currently give up.

Nobody is ever going to agree to a total removal of the wis AC bonus. A change like that will most certainly require a respec option. If there is no respec, then it will **** off a large portion of the player base. How much more work would it be to nerf it completely and add a respec, versus just tweaking it down a little? If you think the wis AC bonus is still too high then make it 1x or 1+1x monk level if uncentered. This way there isn't such a pressing need to demand a respec with a wis AC nerf.

I'm not even going to attempt to address s&b here because there is so much that is wrong with s&b. Any fix for rgr/mnk splashes still does nothing for s&b.

[Borror0]

Any fix for rgr/mnk splashes still does nothing for s&b.

False. The more powerful rngr/monk splash is, the harder it is to improve S&B.

[krud]

False. The more powerful rngr/monk splash is, the harder it is to improve S&B.

That's just great. All that typing and you can only respond to one line? How about addressing some of the specifics?

[Borror0]

That's just great. All that typing and you can only respond to one line? How about addressing some of the specifics?

Like what? I think I summarized it all, really.

As for the putting a cap to monk AC, how is that NOT a nerf requiring respec? Seems like you're already agreeing with me.

[branmakmuffin]

That's just great. All that typing and you can only respond to one line? How about addressing some of the specifics?

Well, you know, people who pick out one line to respond to from one of his posts are being dishonest. When he does it, it's perfectly OK.

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