Drow Rogue Intimitank (no, I'm not kidding)

[Thanimal]

BIG EDIT: So I've run this build to 12, and I absolutely love it. It's hard for me to emphasize how strange it is that every time I log in I want to play this guy. Over three years of play I've always been into making new experiments and spreading my time over tons of cool builds. But this guy is REALLY fun and REALLY good at quite a few things, not least of which his original intention of Intimitanking.

So it's time to update this build post a little to reflect the minor changes I've made as I've gained experience and processed more feedback. And I really encourage anybody to try this out. Yes, you'll utterly suck until hitting level 3, and your AC won't start to get tanky until about level 9 (and not uber-tanky until more like 13), but if your experience is anything like mine, you will have an absolute blast along the way, with the total shocker of frequently leading in kills.

BASIC IDEA: This build toggles between two roles: 1) Intimitank with passable DPS. 2) Shockingly durable sneak attacker. If you are uber enough to get Radiance weapons, you might just be able to do both at the same time. For realistic AC without ultra-uber equipment, this build is right near the top of what is possible. And the saves are pretty awesome at roughly 30/40/30 with Improved Evasion.


DETAILS:

Drow Rogue 12/Paladin 2/Monk 2 (16/2/2 at 20)

Stats
DEX 17 [8 points] + 2 drow + 3 rogue + 6 item + 4 bumps + 2 tome + 2 stance = 36
WIS 14 [6] + 1 Monk + 6 item + 1 tome = 22
CHA 16 [6] + 1 Paladin + 6 item + 1 tome = 24
INT 12 [2] + 1 Tome = 13
CON 11 [5] + 1 Tome + 6 item - 2 stance = 16
STR 9 [1] + 1 Tome = 10

Levelling plan with feats:
1: Rogue. TWF
2: Monk. Toughness
3: Rogue. Weapon Finesse (Evasion Granted)
4: Paladin
5: Rogue
6: Paladin. Dodge
7: Rogue
8: Rogue
9: Monk. CE. iTWF
10: Rogue
11: Rogue
12: Rogue. SF: Intimidate
13: Rogue
14: Rogue. Slippery Mind
15: Rogue. gTWF
16: Rogue
[17: Rogue. Improved Evasion]
[18: Rogue. Improved Critical]
[19: Rogue]
[20: Rogue. Crippling Strike]

NOTE: Several of the feats could be reordered for personal preference. For example, if you plan to have Radiance weapons (Kukris are best here I *think*) at level 16, then you might prefer to swap gTWF and iCrit. Or you could swap out Dodge for a while and then re-take it at 18. Similarly, the order of the 3 Rogue bonus feats is just personal preference. All 3 are excellent for the build (which is why Paladin 3 never does fit), but my recent experience with the character has convinced me that Slippery Mind will be a HUGE life-saver for intimitanking, whereas the others are more "very nice to have."

Enhancements (through 16)
6: Drow DEX II
3: Drow Toughness II

1: Paladin Toughness I
2: Paladin CHA I

1: Disciple of Breezes (in this stance nearly all the time until have Radiance weapons)
1: Disciple of Puddles (switch to this stance to run a trap or tank a caster)
1: Way of the Tenacious Badger (+1 Intim)
2: Monk Wisdom I

6: Rogue Haste Boost III
6: Rogue Skill Boost III
10: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
12: Rogue DEX III
4: Rogue Acrobat I
1: Rogue Faster Sneaking I (prereq)
3: Rogue Tumble II (prereq)
3: Rogue Balance II (prereq)
2: Rogue Acrobat II


Skills: Disable, Search, Spot, Open (half ranks probably fine), UMD, Intimidate, and a few ranks of Jump, Balance, maybe Haggle

Intimidate Score @ 16
19 ranks
1 Monk enh
7 CHA
15 item
3 Focus feat
4 Greater Heroism
2 Bard Song
1 luck
---
52 (more possible with raid loot)

AC @ 16
Without heavy farming (as defined in Impaqt's non-uber-equip AC thread)
10 base
6 DT Robe
2 Chaosgarde
1 crafting bonus
13 dex
6 wis
5 protection
5 Combat Expertise
1 Dodge feat
1 parrying weapon
1 monk bonus
1 Paladin aura
1 Haste
3 Barkskin potion
4 UMDed Shield wand
---
60

Shorter term
6 Improved Uncanny Dodge (8 of these for up to 4:00)
2 Acrobat boost (5 of these for up to 5:00)
---
68

With more farming
+3 Insight weapon (relative to Parrying)
3 Dodge (Chattering Ring or DT Robe enhancement)
+1 wis (+3 wis tome)
---
75

Buffs from party-mates
2 Recitation
+4 real Paladin aura
+2 real Ranger Barkskin
4 Bard Song
---
87

Note: I don't list Icy Raiments because I think DT Robe works out much better here, given the tiight slot situation.

Saves @ 16
Monk 2: 3/3/3
Paladin 2: 3/0/0
Rogue 12: 4/8/4
Paladin Aura: 1/1/1
CHA: 7/7/7
Resist: 5/5/5
GH: 4/4/4
stats: 3/13/6
luck: 1/1/1
[Drow enchanment bonus: 0/0/2]
---
31/42/31 [33 vs. enchantments]

"Beholder Saves": 27/38/27 [29 vs. enchantments]

Sneak attack (keep in mind this is "Plan B" but sorta cool with Radiance, too): +6d6+12

Hit Points
20: base
72: 12 Rogue
16: 2 Monk
20: 2 Paladin
18: Toughness
30: Toughness Enhancement
30: Greater False Life
20: Minos hat
48: CON bonus
---
274 (significantly more possible with raid loot)

Ok, so hit points aren't very good. But if always in hit-on-20 and save-on-1 (for half), this still seems like "enough." And we do have a LoH for 84 to a "virtual" HP total of 358. (Through level 12, my hit points have been PLENTY, but I must admit they are a bit front-loaded. At some point I may have to prioritize some farming for HP items.)

ENJOY!!

[Torron]

After level cap increase You could make it 12 level of rogue and take thief acrobat 2 making you immune to knockdown attacks. after level cap increase

[Impaqt]

Just goes to show that if ya throw enough tomes, Raid gear and Rare items at ANY build it suddenly becomes "Uber"

DPS would be below the useless level on a build like this..... You dont get sneak attacks on intimidated targets, and you dont do much damage with a 9 STR.

Your counting a Stance in there all the time so you evidentally are using Kamas or Handwraps.... Both notoriously low DPS.

[Gunga]

This build hurts me. Name him Ding.

[Thanimal]

Just goes to show that if ya throw enough tomes, Raid gear and Rare items at ANY build it suddenly becomes "Uber"

Why do you say that? 90 AC is just for comedic factor. This build is hitting full-on tank numbers with NO hard to obtain gear. 68 AC self-buffed without a single thing that requires farming (unless you count Vials of Pure Water). If you compare apples to apples (i.e. same raid loot), I believe this AC is above most tank builds. In fact, I didn't even mention any uber equipment in the saves or HP, and Improved Evasion is automatic. The lack of requirement of uber equipment is one of the things that really intrigues me about this build..

DPS would be below the useless level on a build like this..... You dont get sneak attacks on intimidated targets, and you dont do much damage with a 9 STR.

Your counting a Stance in there all the time so you evidentally are using Kamas or Handwraps.... Both notoriously low DPS.

Can you back that with some math, please? When we try to run the numbers, we see non-sneak attack quite a bit above cforce's "traditional" S&B Evasion Tank, Crater. (I'll try to put my money where my mouth is and post this comparison soon(ish).) TWF with the Wind Stance and the occasional Rogue Haste Boost is quite an attack rate. But even if we're wrong, do you really need DPS when you're Mr. Intimidate? What's great about this is that if you end up in a party where you AREN'T the tank, then your DPS becomes huge from sneak attack.

[Impaqt]

Why do you say that? 90 AC is just for comedic factor. This build is hitting full-on tank numbers with NO hard to obtain gear. 68 AC self-buffed without a single thing that requires farming (unless you count Vials of Pure Water). If you compare apples to apples (i.e. same raid loot), I believe this AC is above most tank builds. In fact, I didn't even mention any uber equipment in the saves or HP, and Improved Evasion is automatic. The lack of requirement of uber equipment is one of the things that really intrigues me about this build..

Its Flavor of the Month AC...... any your Temporary AC may hit higher than some traditional Tank builds, but your beholder proof/undispellable ac isnt as nice.

Improved evasion isnt automatic. You must select it. and IMO, Crippling strike is still a better feat to take on any rogue.

Can you back that with some math, please? When we try to run the numbers, we see non-sneak attack quite a bit above cforce's "traditional" S&B Evasion Tank, Crater. (I'll try to put my money where my mouth is and post this comparison soon(ish).) TWF with the Wind Stance and the occasional Rogue Haste Boost is quite an attack rate. But even if we're wrong, do you really need DPS when you're Mr. Intimidate? What's great about this is that if you end up in a party where you AREN'T the tank, then your DPS becomes huge from sneak attack.

You provided no math as to why you feel a 10 STR CE using Kama weilding Intimitank would do more damage than my 30 str Dwarven axe weilding Traditional Tank.

I didnt bring up the DPS superiority, You did. I agree that Huge DPS isnt needed from an Intimitank. but its nice to have SOME damage dealing capabilities. attack rate doesnt do you much good when you to hit is much lower than a "Traditional" s&b build and your extremely limitied on what weapons you can use to maintain every attack bonus you can get.

The final think I dislike about the build is the total abandonment of any tier 3 PrE enhancment, and not even a tier 2 at current cap.

[Asketes]

This sounds interested. I'll have to give this a go and see what I think. I've never made an AC toon. Guess this sounds good enough to at least play around with it

Any bets to see if i can solo elite korthos at 2 like my 38pt barb? haha

[Dark-Star]

HPs are on the low side, I agree with you. Drop one level of monk and one level of pali, take acrobat2 and crippling strike.

[Sillk]

I think by the OP taking Finesse in the original build, he's as damaging as any other Finesse build. With no real word on a WOP nerf, this build could do quite a lot. Esp while UMD'ing a few scrolls found along the way.

It may not "DPS", but it's pretty diverse in what it can do.

[Timjc86]

I'd not use any of the monk stances except extremely situationally. Being forced into kamas and handwraps isn't worth +2 dex and +3.5% attack speed, when you already get an almost 70AC self buffed and 41 reflex save (w/ Improved Evasion).

Instead I'd craft a Radiance II rapier so you can use some of that sneak attack damage while you're tanking. I don't think it will help you on bosses though. Gogo blanket immunities!

[Thanimal]

I'd not use any of the monk stances except extremely situationally. Being forced into kamas and handwraps isn't worth +2 dex and +3.5% attack speed, when you already get an almost 70AC self buffed and 41 reflex save (w/ Improved Evasion).

Instead I'd craft a Radiance II rapier so you can use some of that sneak attack damage while you're tanking. I don't think it will help you on bosses though. Gogo blanket immunities!

Those are great points, that arguably make the following completely irrelevant, but I did promise I'd post some "straight" non-Sneak DPS comparisons.

Assumptions:
Haste, non-Warchanter Bard (+6/+6), Greater Heroism
Fighter takes all the damage-increasing feats and enhancements
Fighter has 30 STR
+5 Holy Pure Good weapons (Kama, Longsword, or DAxe as appropriate)
Combat Expertise
Wind Stance stacks additively at +5% (half).
Holy Pure Good Handwraps are impossible to find (they *would* attack a little faster if they existed)

I consider 3 builds: WF Fighter 11/Paladin 3/Rogue 2, Dwarf same, and Dwarf Fighter 16.

WF Fighter 11/Paladin 3/Rogue 2:
http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=20&maxac=50

(Rogue wins against non-boss AC)

Dwarf Fighter 11/Paladin 3/Rogue 2:
http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=20&maxac=50

(Rogue is comparable, but worse.)

Dwarf Fighter 16:
http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=20&maxac=50

(Rogue is about 7% worse vs. "low" AC and much worse vs. boss AC)

I guess I think the last one is apples to oranges, though, as the straight Fighter tank has dramatically worse magic defenses. I'm not saying that means it's bad -- just that it's a different animal.

And finally a chart that is just for fun. (I may not have been clear that PLAN A here is Intimitank. But there are times when Intimidating just isn't called for, or you already have one. In this case, the ability to seemlessly transform into a legit DPS seems awesome to me.)

Proposed build with SA on vs. the Dwarf Fighter:
http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=20&maxac=50

[Thanimal]

HPs are on the low side, I agree with you. Drop one level of monk and one level of pali, take acrobat2 and crippling strike.

Dropping the 2nd Monk level is more damaging than it may seem, because then you either have to drop Dodge (net -2 AC) or Toughness (-1 AC *and* lose a ton of precious HP).

The 3rd Paladin level is indeed optional. If anybody wants to buid it without that, I would have no objection. But personally I like it a lot for the immunities (Fear and Disease), +1 AC, +1 saves, extra LoH, and oh-so-huge () +4 hit points. More a play style thing than anything. I play Warforged all the time, so I'm addicted to immunities.

With the level cap going up soon, I guess I'm willing to plan on Acrobat2 at 17 and crippling strike at 18.

[Thanimal]

This sounds interested. I'll have to give this a go and see what I think. I've never made an AC toon. Guess this sounds good enough to at least play around with it

Great! I'd love to hear any reports! I plan to build this, too (unless somebody in this thread can find the hidden flaw), but my pace is slooooooooow, so we'll never find out how it plays in the end-game from me!

Any bets to see if i can solo elite korthos at 2 like my 38pt barb? haha

I'd place a pretty big one that you can't . The one glaring problem with this build is that it is AWFUL at level 2, because it doesn't have Finesse and therefore can't hit the broad side of a Sahaugin. Better mooch along on a few WW runs (since you also need Blackwidow Bracers ASAP) and pretend to be useful by disabling some traps!

[Thanimal]

<snip> your Temporary AC may hit higher than some traditional Tank builds, but your beholder proof/undispellable ac isnt as nice. <snip>

I don't think I agree there. The only things we have that are dispellable (correct me if I'm wrong) are Shield, Haste, and Barkskin. The latter two are always dispellable on any tank, so if we get dispelled then we eat a relative -4 vs. a different tank build. And it seems to me we *still* have higher AC (against the boss anyhow, where we can count on our (non-dispellable) Rogue boosts). Perhaps I misunderestimate the AC of a S&B tank.

Improved evasion isnt automatic. You must select it. and IMO, Crippling strike is still a better feat to take on any rogue.

Fair enough, but this isn't "any Rogue" -- PLAN A is Intimitank, and for me personally I'll take Improved Evasion for that role in a heart-beat. I recall from a previous thread on Intimitanks that you and some others are not all that sold on the importance of Evasion for intimidating. I still am. But if somebody wants to build with Crippling Strike first (and then IE at 18), that's fine by me!

You provided no math as to why you feel a 10 STR CE using Kama weilding Intimitank would do more damage than my 30 str Dwarven axe weilding Traditional Tank.

Comparison now provided - though of course always the possibility I have hosed it up! And you'll see that you are correct that straight Fighter dwarf S&B does better, but the difference is awfully small until hitting huge ACs. (My original reference in the OP was vs. a WF Evasion Tank, which I consider a known-good build because my good friend cforce has capped it. So I thought usually-better DPS than that without sneak was pretty great. And I still do.)

The final think I dislike about the build is the total abandonment of any tier 3 PrE enhancment, and not even a tier 2 at current cap.

Hey, it'd be nice to have 'em, no doubt! But I think the benefits from the splashes here are HUGE -- indeed the entire reason this might be interesting. I'd be interested in a comparison of the Intimitanking stats of this build against one that does take a tier 3 PrE (which one would it be?). If such a build is obviously better than this one, then I probably won't build this!

[Aranticus]

Those are great points, that arguably make the following completely irrelevant, but I did promise I'd post some "straight" non-Sneak DPS comparisons.

Assumptions:
Haste, non-Warchanter Bard (+6/+6), Greater Heroism
Fighter takes all the damage-increasing feats and enhancements
Fighter has 30 STR
+5 Holy Pure Good weapons (Kama, Longsword, or DAxe as appropriate)
Combat Expertise
Wind Stance stacks additively at +5% (half).
Holy Pure Good Handwraps are impossible to find (they *would* attack a little faster if they existed)

I consider 3 builds: WF Fighter 11/Paladin 3/Rogue 2, Dwarf same, and Dwarf Fighter 16.

WF Fighter 11/Paladin 3/Rogue 2:
http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=20&maxac=50

(Rogue wins against non-boss AC)

Dwarf Fighter 11/Paladin 3/Rogue 2:
http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=20&maxac=50

(Rogue is comparable, but worse.)

Dwarf Fighter 16:
http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=20&maxac=50

(Rogue is about 7% worse vs. "low" AC and much worse vs. boss AC)

I guess I think the last one is apples to oranges, though, as the straight Fighter tank has dramatically worse magic defenses. I'm not saying that means it's bad -- just that it's a different animal.

And finally a chart that is just for fun. (I may not have been clear that PLAN A here is Intimitank. But there are times when Intimidating just isn't called for, or you already have one. In this case, the ability to seemlessly transform into a legit DPS seems awesome to me.)

Proposed build with SA on vs. the Dwarf Fighter:
http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=20&maxac=50

of coz you prove you are better by comparing TWF to SnB. with twice the number of attacks, anyone can out dps a SnB. there is a reason why they call SnB the red headed stepchild. look into the fighter forums for my DPS/intimitank build. when needing AC, he is SnB but when it comes to dps situation, he can whip out 2 khopeshes and kill stuff

yes you need less gear than the fighter but what you are ignoring here is alot of good advice. a rogue main dps is sneak attack. if you get agro, no sneak. when you intim, you get agro. the radiance comment is an excellent improvement. as to dps try match yourself with a 15rgr/1mnk who is going to have higher ac AND higher dps. get strength to a min of 13 (to qualify for PA if have excess feats)

intimitank with low dps = leech
intimitank with high dps = asset

[Impaqt]

of coz you prove you are better by comparing TWF to SnB. with twice the number of attacks, anyone can out dps a SnB. there is a reason why they call SnB the red headed stepchild. look into the fighter forums for my DPS/intimitank build. when needing AC, he is SnB but when it comes to dps situation, he can whip out 2 khopeshes and kill stuff

yes you need less gear than the fighter but what you are ignoring here is alot of good advice. a rogue main dps is sneak attack. if you get agro, no sneak. when you intim, you get agro. the radiance comment is an excellent improvement. as to dps try match yourself with a 15rgr/1mnk who is going to have higher ac AND higher dps. get strength to a min of 13 (to qualify for PA if have excess feats)

intimitank with low dps = leech
intimitank with high dps = asset

Sad thing is this rogue didnt out DPS any of the fighter build vs. high ac Mobs until he kicked in 100% Sneak attack. a Scenario that will never be viable.

The Primary time DPS is a significant asset in this game is vs. End Boss'. Their AC is usally higher, they often have some sort of Fortification (Expecially ENd game raid Boss'), and are Sometimes even undead, and they are always Immune to Radiance.

[Dark-Star]

Dropping the 2nd Monk level is more damaging than it may seem, because then you either have to drop Dodge (net -2 AC) or Toughness (-1 AC *and* lose a ton of precious HP).

The 3rd Paladin level is indeed optional. If anybody wants to buid it without that, I would have no objection. But personally I like it a lot for the immunities (Fear and Disease), +1 AC, +1 saves, extra LoH, and oh-so-huge () +4 hit points. More a play style thing than anything. I play Warforged all the time, so I'm addicted to immunities.

With the level cap going up soon, I guess I'm willing to plan on Acrobat2 at 17 and crippling strike at 18.

Sir Crippling Strike buries a few hps or 1-2 ac.

[cforce]

I think most folks may be missing the main point here, so let me sum up in a way to make things clearer.

Thanimal's goal of this build were to build a Evasion Intimitank (Tank being used in the MMO sense, not the D&D sense) with high AC, high Intimidate, high saves, and Rogue skills.

What he got was a build that, compared to most every S&B Evasion Tank build, has:

(1) better AC
(2) better saves
(3) better to-hit and damage

...and the only thing that seems to have really been given up is a handful hit points, since there's no reason this guy can't whip out a Shield if he wants some DR instead of AC.

Now, the headline, "Monk splash TWF build outperforms traditional S&B build in every capacity" isn't exactly a news flash anymore, and I'm guessing Turbine's going to address that soon with radically better shields. But, for the moment, this seems to me to be the bar to beat for an Evasion Tank build. And with the ridiculous pile of non-dispellable AC available, there's no reason you can't take some points out of DEX/WIS and bump STR if you want to play with the AC/DPS slider if you want more.

But I'll tell you, this guy out-DPS's my S&B evasion tank that actually *does* try to get good DPS: I put all my bumps into STR, *and* have the advantage of Weapon Specialization and Imp Crit vs. this build, and this guy *still* beats me because of pure attack speed. (And the fact that he's TWF instead of S&B -- duh!)

[Thanimal]

I've started this guy as Vandt on Thelanis (so you can look for me or avoid me as appropriate!).

Much thanks to all the posters with good ideas. I've re-read this thread a few times to try to give this guy the best chance to be what I think he can be.

In particular, I highlight two pieces of advice that I am planning to take:

1) Use Radiance Rapiers most of the time. This may be a no-brainer against anything that can be affected by it. I give up 1 AC and 1 to-hit in exchange for a massive increase in DPS. Naturally, as also pointed out, these get put away for the red names. And of course I won't be able to get these until much higher levels. Until then, Wind Stance is probably "always on."

2) 3rd Paladin level is not worth it. I still think this is a close call, but I'm at least going to postpone it. There's an awful lot of key contributions on the Rogue side that can come a level earlier without that 3rd Paladin level -- in fact it works out that Acrobat I comes two levels earlier (9 instead of 11). And it's really the 2nd Paladin level that is the *real* reason for the splash: Divine Grace and the +1 CHA enhancement.

So far, the build has been VERY fun. I have very limited game time, so don't expect me to report on the end-game any time soon, but level 3 is a blast. Of course, at this point I'm really just a "regular" TWF Rogue who is a hair less squishy than expected. It'll be a while yet before all the core ideas come together and I can make more of an assessment. Maybe the XP bonus weekend will help a little .

Quick update: At 5. Starting to feel pretty tough when my Shield is on (usually off a wand; UMD is getting to be an asset now). DPS feels much better than expected, and Vandt is possibly my best low-level solo build ever, which is coming as quite a pleasant surprise, for two reasons: 1) I tend to build for good soloability, but 2) neither of Vandt's main functions (A: Intimitank, B: Sneak Attack DPSer) have anything to do with soloing. I was able to solo Splinterskull as a 4 and just did Caged Trolls as a 5. (To be clear: I'm not hailing these as amazing accomplishments. I'm sure many fully twinked characters can do that. But considering the build isn't really designed for soloing, I'm considering these to be a very good sign.) Still looking forward to becoming a "real" intimitank at roughly 10, though.

[rimble]

Quick update: At 5. Starting to feel pretty tough when my Shield is on (usually off a wand; UMD is getting to be an asset now). DPS feels much better than expected, and Vandt is possibly my best low-level solo build ever, which is coming as quite a pleasant surprise, for two reasons: 1) I tend to build for good soloability, but 2) neither of Vandt's main functions (A: Intimitank, B: Sneak Attack DPSer) have anything to do with soloing. I was able to solo Splinterskull as a 4 and just did Caged Trolls as a 5. (To be clear: I'm not hailing these as amazing accomplishments. I'm sure many fully twinked characters can do that. But considering the build isn't really designed for soloing, I'm considering these to be a very good sign.) Still looking forward to becoming a "real" intimitank at roughly 10, though.

Cool, I'm looking forward to updates. If you don't mind, make new posts so it pops back to the top.

You know, even if a Rogue doesn't try to be an Intimitank, it's great to invest in that skill for the times you need to save a squishy. Focusing on a high AC and just playing like a traditional Rogue will still play just great, and when you get the aggro you'll be able to handle it.