Drow Rogue Intimitank (no, I'm not kidding)

[Thanimal]

BIG EDIT: So I've run this build to 12, and I absolutely love it. It's hard for me to emphasize how strange it is that every time I log in I want to play this guy. Over three years of play I've always been into making new experiments and spreading my time over tons of cool builds. But this guy is REALLY fun and REALLY good at quite a few things, not least of which his original intention of Intimitanking.

So it's time to update this build post a little to reflect the minor changes I've made as I've gained experience and processed more feedback. And I really encourage anybody to try this out. Yes, you'll utterly suck until hitting level 3, and your AC won't start to get tanky until about level 9 (and not uber-tanky until more like 13), but if your experience is anything like mine, you will have an absolute blast along the way, with the total shocker of frequently leading in kills.

BASIC IDEA: This build toggles between two roles: 1) Intimitank with passable DPS. 2) Shockingly durable sneak attacker. If you are uber enough to get Radiance weapons, you might just be able to do both at the same time. For realistic AC without ultra-uber equipment, this build is right near the top of what is possible. And the saves are pretty awesome at roughly 30/40/30 with Improved Evasion.


DETAILS:

Drow Rogue 12/Paladin 2/Monk 2 (16/2/2 at 20)

Stats
DEX 17 [8 points] + 2 drow + 3 rogue + 6 item + 4 bumps + 2 tome + 2 stance = 36
WIS 14 [6] + 1 Monk + 6 item + 1 tome = 22
CHA 16 [6] + 1 Paladin + 6 item + 1 tome = 24
INT 12 [2] + 1 Tome = 13
CON 11 [5] + 1 Tome + 6 item - 2 stance = 16
STR 9 [1] + 1 Tome = 10

Levelling plan with feats:
1: Rogue. TWF
2: Monk. Toughness
3: Rogue. Weapon Finesse (Evasion Granted)
4: Paladin
5: Rogue
6: Paladin. Dodge
7: Rogue
8: Rogue
9: Monk. CE. iTWF
10: Rogue
11: Rogue
12: Rogue. SF: Intimidate
13: Rogue
14: Rogue. Slippery Mind
15: Rogue. gTWF
16: Rogue
[17: Rogue. Improved Evasion]
[18: Rogue. Improved Critical]
[19: Rogue]
[20: Rogue. Crippling Strike]

NOTE: Several of the feats could be reordered for personal preference. For example, if you plan to have Radiance weapons (Kukris are best here I *think*) at level 16, then you might prefer to swap gTWF and iCrit. Or you could swap out Dodge for a while and then re-take it at 18. Similarly, the order of the 3 Rogue bonus feats is just personal preference. All 3 are excellent for the build (which is why Paladin 3 never does fit), but my recent experience with the character has convinced me that Slippery Mind will be a HUGE life-saver for intimitanking, whereas the others are more "very nice to have."

Enhancements (through 16)
6: Drow DEX II
3: Drow Toughness II

1: Paladin Toughness I
2: Paladin CHA I

1: Disciple of Breezes (in this stance nearly all the time until have Radiance weapons)
1: Disciple of Puddles (switch to this stance to run a trap or tank a caster)
1: Way of the Tenacious Badger (+1 Intim)
2: Monk Wisdom I

6: Rogue Haste Boost III
6: Rogue Skill Boost III
10: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
12: Rogue DEX III
4: Rogue Acrobat I
1: Rogue Faster Sneaking I (prereq)
3: Rogue Tumble II (prereq)
3: Rogue Balance II (prereq)
2: Rogue Acrobat II


Skills: Disable, Search, Spot, Open (half ranks probably fine), UMD, Intimidate, and a few ranks of Jump, Balance, maybe Haggle

Intimidate Score @ 16
19 ranks
1 Monk enh
7 CHA
15 item
3 Focus feat
4 Greater Heroism
2 Bard Song
1 luck
---
52 (more possible with raid loot)

AC @ 16
Without heavy farming (as defined in Impaqt's non-uber-equip AC thread)
10 base
6 DT Robe
2 Chaosgarde
1 crafting bonus
13 dex
6 wis
5 protection
5 Combat Expertise
1 Dodge feat
1 parrying weapon
1 monk bonus
1 Paladin aura
1 Haste
3 Barkskin potion
4 UMDed Shield wand
---
60

Shorter term
6 Improved Uncanny Dodge (8 of these for up to 4:00)
2 Acrobat boost (5 of these for up to 5:00)
---
68

With more farming
+3 Insight weapon (relative to Parrying)
3 Dodge (Chattering Ring or DT Robe enhancement)
+1 wis (+3 wis tome)
---
75

Buffs from party-mates
2 Recitation
+4 real Paladin aura
+2 real Ranger Barkskin
4 Bard Song
---
87

Note: I don't list Icy Raiments because I think DT Robe works out much better here, given the tiight slot situation.

Saves @ 16
Monk 2: 3/3/3
Paladin 2: 3/0/0
Rogue 12: 4/8/4
Paladin Aura: 1/1/1
CHA: 7/7/7
Resist: 5/5/5
GH: 4/4/4
stats: 3/13/6
luck: 1/1/1
[Drow enchanment bonus: 0/0/2]
---
31/42/31 [33 vs. enchantments]

"Beholder Saves": 27/38/27 [29 vs. enchantments]

Sneak attack (keep in mind this is "Plan B" but sorta cool with Radiance, too): +6d6+12

Hit Points
20: base
72: 12 Rogue
16: 2 Monk
20: 2 Paladin
18: Toughness
30: Toughness Enhancement
30: Greater False Life
20: Minos hat
48: CON bonus
---
274 (significantly more possible with raid loot)

Ok, so hit points aren't very good. But if always in hit-on-20 and save-on-1 (for half), this still seems like "enough." And we do have a LoH for 84 to a "virtual" HP total of 358. (Through level 12, my hit points have been PLENTY, but I must admit they are a bit front-loaded. At some point I may have to prioritize some farming for HP items.)

ENJOY!!

[Torron]

After level cap increase You could make it 12 level of rogue and take thief acrobat 2 making you immune to knockdown attacks. after level cap increase

[Impaqt]

Just goes to show that if ya throw enough tomes, Raid gear and Rare items at ANY build it suddenly becomes "Uber"

DPS would be below the useless level on a build like this..... You dont get sneak attacks on intimidated targets, and you dont do much damage with a 9 STR.

Your counting a Stance in there all the time so you evidentally are using Kamas or Handwraps.... Both notoriously low DPS.

[Gunga]

This build hurts me. Name him Ding.

[Thanimal]

Just goes to show that if ya throw enough tomes, Raid gear and Rare items at ANY build it suddenly becomes "Uber"

Why do you say that? 90 AC is just for comedic factor. This build is hitting full-on tank numbers with NO hard to obtain gear. 68 AC self-buffed without a single thing that requires farming (unless you count Vials of Pure Water). If you compare apples to apples (i.e. same raid loot), I believe this AC is above most tank builds. In fact, I didn't even mention any uber equipment in the saves or HP, and Improved Evasion is automatic. The lack of requirement of uber equipment is one of the things that really intrigues me about this build..

DPS would be below the useless level on a build like this..... You dont get sneak attacks on intimidated targets, and you dont do much damage with a 9 STR.

Your counting a Stance in there all the time so you evidentally are using Kamas or Handwraps.... Both notoriously low DPS.

Can you back that with some math, please? When we try to run the numbers, we see non-sneak attack quite a bit above cforce's "traditional" S&B Evasion Tank, Crater. (I'll try to put my money where my mouth is and post this comparison soon(ish).) TWF with the Wind Stance and the occasional Rogue Haste Boost is quite an attack rate. But even if we're wrong, do you really need DPS when you're Mr. Intimidate? What's great about this is that if you end up in a party where you AREN'T the tank, then your DPS becomes huge from sneak attack.

[Impaqt]

Why do you say that? 90 AC is just for comedic factor. This build is hitting full-on tank numbers with NO hard to obtain gear. 68 AC self-buffed without a single thing that requires farming (unless you count Vials of Pure Water). If you compare apples to apples (i.e. same raid loot), I believe this AC is above most tank builds. In fact, I didn't even mention any uber equipment in the saves or HP, and Improved Evasion is automatic. The lack of requirement of uber equipment is one of the things that really intrigues me about this build..

Its Flavor of the Month AC...... any your Temporary AC may hit higher than some traditional Tank builds, but your beholder proof/undispellable ac isnt as nice.

Improved evasion isnt automatic. You must select it. and IMO, Crippling strike is still a better feat to take on any rogue.

Can you back that with some math, please? When we try to run the numbers, we see non-sneak attack quite a bit above cforce's "traditional" S&B Evasion Tank, Crater. (I'll try to put my money where my mouth is and post this comparison soon(ish).) TWF with the Wind Stance and the occasional Rogue Haste Boost is quite an attack rate. But even if we're wrong, do you really need DPS when you're Mr. Intimidate? What's great about this is that if you end up in a party where you AREN'T the tank, then your DPS becomes huge from sneak attack.

You provided no math as to why you feel a 10 STR CE using Kama weilding Intimitank would do more damage than my 30 str Dwarven axe weilding Traditional Tank.

I didnt bring up the DPS superiority, You did. I agree that Huge DPS isnt needed from an Intimitank. but its nice to have SOME damage dealing capabilities. attack rate doesnt do you much good when you to hit is much lower than a "Traditional" s&b build and your extremely limitied on what weapons you can use to maintain every attack bonus you can get.

The final think I dislike about the build is the total abandonment of any tier 3 PrE enhancment, and not even a tier 2 at current cap.

[Asketes]

This sounds interested. I'll have to give this a go and see what I think. I've never made an AC toon. Guess this sounds good enough to at least play around with it

Any bets to see if i can solo elite korthos at 2 like my 38pt barb? haha

[Dark-Star]

HPs are on the low side, I agree with you. Drop one level of monk and one level of pali, take acrobat2 and crippling strike.

[Sillk]

I think by the OP taking Finesse in the original build, he's as damaging as any other Finesse build. With no real word on a WOP nerf, this build could do quite a lot. Esp while UMD'ing a few scrolls found along the way.

It may not "DPS", but it's pretty diverse in what it can do.

[Thanimal]

This sounds interested. I'll have to give this a go and see what I think. I've never made an AC toon. Guess this sounds good enough to at least play around with it

Great! I'd love to hear any reports! I plan to build this, too (unless somebody in this thread can find the hidden flaw), but my pace is slooooooooow, so we'll never find out how it plays in the end-game from me!

Any bets to see if i can solo elite korthos at 2 like my 38pt barb? haha

I'd place a pretty big one that you can't . The one glaring problem with this build is that it is AWFUL at level 2, because it doesn't have Finesse and therefore can't hit the broad side of a Sahaugin. Better mooch along on a few WW runs (since you also need Blackwidow Bracers ASAP) and pretend to be useful by disabling some traps!

[Thanimal]

<snip> your Temporary AC may hit higher than some traditional Tank builds, but your beholder proof/undispellable ac isnt as nice. <snip>

I don't think I agree there. The only things we have that are dispellable (correct me if I'm wrong) are Shield, Haste, and Barkskin. The latter two are always dispellable on any tank, so if we get dispelled then we eat a relative -4 vs. a different tank build. And it seems to me we *still* have higher AC (against the boss anyhow, where we can count on our (non-dispellable) Rogue boosts). Perhaps I misunderestimate the AC of a S&B tank.

Improved evasion isnt automatic. You must select it. and IMO, Crippling strike is still a better feat to take on any rogue.

Fair enough, but this isn't "any Rogue" -- PLAN A is Intimitank, and for me personally I'll take Improved Evasion for that role in a heart-beat. I recall from a previous thread on Intimitanks that you and some others are not all that sold on the importance of Evasion for intimidating. I still am. But if somebody wants to build with Crippling Strike first (and then IE at 18), that's fine by me!

You provided no math as to why you feel a 10 STR CE using Kama weilding Intimitank would do more damage than my 30 str Dwarven axe weilding Traditional Tank.

Comparison now provided - though of course always the possibility I have hosed it up! And you'll see that you are correct that straight Fighter dwarf S&B does better, but the difference is awfully small until hitting huge ACs. (My original reference in the OP was vs. a WF Evasion Tank, which I consider a known-good build because my good friend cforce has capped it. So I thought usually-better DPS than that without sneak was pretty great. And I still do.)

The final think I dislike about the build is the total abandonment of any tier 3 PrE enhancment, and not even a tier 2 at current cap.

Hey, it'd be nice to have 'em, no doubt! But I think the benefits from the splashes here are HUGE -- indeed the entire reason this might be interesting. I'd be interested in a comparison of the Intimitanking stats of this build against one that does take a tier 3 PrE (which one would it be?). If such a build is obviously better than this one, then I probably won't build this!

[Thanimal]

I just read a great Intimitank build from Aaxeyu (of Monster fame):

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174962

This build addresses fairly different goals, with the only real commonality being that both can Intimidate effectively. (My build has many advantages, his has many advantages.) But I highlight it mainly because it shows that, under Mod 9, it will be possible to build an Intimitank whose DPS is *way* above mine in non-Sneak-Attack situations.

Status update on Vandt: I'm inching toward level 8 now, and still absolutely loving this build. I feel like I have something fun and/or important to do in almost every situation. My saves are excellent and I feel so much more durable than I'm used to from "real" Rogues. But, as expected, I'm on an AC plateau at the moment where I'm not a true tank. This build gets a lot of its AC at higher levels -- somewhere between 10 and 13 is where, on paper, I can finally say "I want all aggro on me all the time."

But it turns out I'm having so much fun as a reasonably-durable sneak attacker (with flying fists thanks to Lesser Wind Stance), that I'm not missing the full-tank AC at all. I have found it to be true that I can keep up in kill counts with most DPS builds [except against Undead!!], and it is really fun to just run into the fray and spew sneak attack damage without being unduly worried about the aggro that may generate. And I have all the usual good stuff of a real Rogue, such as trap-monkey skilz and UMD.

Of course, I am looking forward to getting great AC someday to go with my great saves -- once I get there, those will probably be the most informative reports I'll make (someday!!).

I remain sold on the build, even if you prefer to take it in a non-Intimidate direction (which probably says Halfling, although I haven't really thought that through).

[Thanimal]

I just hit level 9, and I ended up making a minor modification to my build plan: Take the 2nd Monk level at 9.

I realized that Rogue 6 isn't offering me anything I can use immediately (Acrobat I and Dex II will be great later, but I can't spare the APs for those right now). Perhaps more importantly, this plan enables me to make a sudden jump to "pretty tanky" at level 9. I now have a standing AC of 39 (will be 40 with one more action point for Monk WIS), so I'll shortly be able to Barkskin to 43 and briefly self-buff to 51 (Shield clickie, then reactivate CE, then Uncanny Dodge). My experience with my previous tanks suggests that low 40s as a level 9 is pretty tanky unless trying to "reach" with a 9-12 group doing something difficult. (And in that case, just don't Intimidate and be a "tough Rogue" instead!)

I should now be able to stay ahead of "tanky pace" from here out. As a HUGE bonus, I also picked up Improved TWF at 9, so all-in-all it appears my DPS will actually go *slightly* up even though I am now adding on -5 to-hit from CE.

I'm excited to run as a real tank soon, but first some parting comments about level 8:

Level 8 is the low point for tankiness. Saves are GREAT, but even with the help of Tomes and Barkskin, I could only reach AC of 33 -- not awful but certainly not worthy of Intimidating in remotely challenging content. That said, level 8 provided me with a ton of enthusiasm for the build because I was often able to lead in kills, or at least honorable mention. On my last mission as a level 8 I actually managed to lead several parts of Delera's in kills. (Note: No sneak attack.) Don't read TOO much into that: it was a short-man where the only DPS build was 3 levels below me. But to even be "in the discussion" on a run with zero sneak attack had me pretty pumped. This was the first time I ran this build with a full Warchanter, and WOW is that good for me. My punch rate is fantastic (high base + Wind Stance + Haste + situational RHB), so a flat + to each hit adds up FAST.

Love this build. If only I could figure out how to make it be a WF! (I got Held by some Earth Elementals recently and remembered that a 5% chance of failing a save is a LOT more than 0%!)

[Grenfell]

I have a halfling rogue (Ashae -- you can do a search for it) that is rather similar.

The strongest thing I can recommend is to wait on that second monk level and go for 12 Rogue until the level cap goes up. It's simply ridiculous how great Acrobat II is on this sort of build. Knockdown immunity is simply delicious.

And I have Intimidate on the build. And I use it, quite often. Great for things like Hound tanking (immune to knockdown, enormous AC, huge saves) and lock the little dogs on me at all times.

Because my build is a halfling, I'm afraid I take a huge size penalty to Intimidate. So I won't be intimidate-locking Sully in VOD. But Orthons, I can lock no problem.

358 hp is really not bad when you're routinely hitting 70 AC in raid groups. I actually think I can drop 20 or so hp and not have it matter all that much.

Anyhow, get Rogue 12 for Acrobat II; you really won't regret it.

/gren

[Thanimal]

Anyhow, get Rogue 12 for Acrobat II; you really won't regret it.
/gren

Agreed. I am doing this by postponing Paladin 3. So at current cap I am 12/2/2. I MAY then take Paladin 3 @ level 18, after my second Rogue bonus feat at Rogue 13.

I need to make several updates to my original post based on my experience and recent feedback. Hopefully get to that soon.

I think this build is better as a Halfling in many ways, but I kinda wanted to try all-out Intimitank, so wasn't willing to eat the -5 difference (1 from lower CHA; 4 from size).

[Thanimal]

358 hp is really not bad when you're routinely hitting 70 AC in raid groups. I actually think I can drop 20 or so hp and not have it matter all that much.
/gren

Hey -- how did I not notice this part on my first read! This has been one of the biggest questions in my mind. On paper, I had a compelling justification that HP were not extremely important to this build (so long as I could avoid instant death from one or two lucky shots). But in the back of my mind I always worried I'd be wrong. So your experience here is EXTREMELY valuable -- it basically eliminates the last thing I thought could be a serious negative. Thanks!

[Thanimal]

Just dinged 10 (by FAR my personal best time to level 10, although my pace is never going to impress ANYONE), and I finally took the time to update the original post to reflect my latest plan.

Level 9 was basically awesome. I finally got to fairly tanky AC (40 base; option of Shield, Barkskin, Haste to 48 and once in a while even Uncanny Dodge to 52 for a few seconds), and picking up Improved TWF resulted in a pretty big increase in DPS, despite eating the -5 to-hit of CE. I still found myself only using Intimidate situationally, but my lack of fear meant I could rotate targets like crazy and spew sneak attack damage all over the room. If memory serves, I only got outkilled one time as a level 9, and that included two full runs of Deleras (no Sneak Attack). I'm not saying some uber Ranger couldn't outkill me easily, but I did outkill one who probably wasn't all that uber . Still, I felt like a pretty legitimate DPS build while *also* walking around with near-tank AC and full-tank saves with Evasion.

Note to anybody who tries this build, though: Place a high priority on getting SOME Transmuting option. WOW does the DPS drop precipitously against high DR combined with Sneak Attack immunity. Even though I led both VoN3 and VoN4 in kills (and at the bottom of the level range of the party), my damage output was essentially ZERO against those particular bosses. (If anybody wants to donate some good finessable Transmuters, I will say Thank You many times!)

Level 10 is a little bit of a plateau -- some marginal gains, but nothing to write home about. No AC increase here, but I believe this is the last time I'll level up without an AC increase. Saves improve a little, but I haven't failed ANYTHING except on a 1 in several levels now anyhow. And no major DPS increases here, except from weapon improvements unlocked at 10. Theoretically, I unlock Acrobat I, but that isn't actually THAT great until I get Improved Uncanny Dodge, so I'm just starting to save up the action points to make sure I can grab Acrobat I by 12 (Rogue 8).

Final Note: I just moved Vandt to the first position in my signature. He is truly my "main."

[Thanimal]

Quick one: This weekend I got to show off both of my potential roles in one day. I ran as a DPS (with a Paladin Intimitank) in a Stormcleave/Elite and finished 2nd in kills (BY ONE -- no doubt a player with less sucky twitch skills than I have would have won). Later that day I ran as an Intimitank in a Xorian/Elite. That quest is a bit caster heavy, so admittedly kind of a best-case for my "pretty good" AC (44 most of the time) and my "great" saves (24/28/24 most of the time). Still, it just feels so friggin' cool that I can join a party and then become whatever type of melee they need. Oh, and I can do traps and stuff.

[Merlocke]

havent read this entire post. stopped when i saw you CON. more CON dude. that is all.

[Asymetric_War]

[COLOR="Lime"]

Hit Points
20: base
72: 12 Rogue
16: 2 Monk
20: 2 Paladin
18: Toughness
30: Toughness Enhancement
30: Greater False Life
20: Minos hat
48: CON bonus
---
274 (significantly more possible with raid loot)

Ok, so hit points aren't very good. But if always in hit-on-20 and save-on-1 (for half), this still seems like "enough." And we do have a LoH for 84 to a "virtual" HP total of 358. (Through level 12, my hit points have been PLENTY, but I must admit they are a bit front-loaded. At some point I may have to prioritize some farming for HP items.)

ENJOY!!

274 hp at 16 makes this build utterly worthless as a tank. That is all, no rebuttal is possible.