Drow Rogue Intimitank (no, I'm not kidding)

[VKhaun]

I'm not even sure why this is on a rogue. Advanced evasion? Really? If you'd taken slippery mind, MAYBE, but just advanced evasion? Could be rogue1/ranger16/paladin3. TWF line free. Plenty of skill points to level rogue skills cross-class. Shield and strength instead of wisdom and monk AC. Regular evasion. Favored enemy for boss types for DPS that applies vs sneak attack on trash mobs anyone in the group could be clearing.

[Thanimal]

6wis + 1monk = only 7ac... Including better gear and dodge as a monk feat you're still only at 9ac from monk and it cost you all that strength and item slots. I don't get it. You seem to be jumping through a lot of hoops to use the monk splash. Why not go 2 fighter instead for shield mastery enhancements? Give you some strength back for attacking, stop lots of glancing blows, and free up item slots.

Did you really just write "only 9 ac"?

In the best case scenario 9 points of AC could be the difference between hit on 11 and hit-on-20. That's a reduction in damage of a FACTOR OF 10. Nine points of AC is night and day different.

[Thanimal]

I'm not even sure why this is on a rogue. Advanced evasion? Really? If you'd taken slippery mind, MAYBE, but just advanced evasion? Could be rogue1/ranger16/paladin3. TWF line free. Plenty of skill points to level rogue skills cross-class. Shield and strength instead of wisdom and monk AC. Regular evasion. Favored enemy for boss types for DPS that applies vs sneak attack on trash mobs anyone in the group could be clearing.

If you look again, you'll see I'm taking Slippery Mind before Improved Evasion.

[VKhaun]

Did you really just write "only 9 ac"?

Yeah... then I said bust out a tower shield instead?
Remember 'intimitank' in your title? Know how those work?
You've traded tower shield for monk AC and lost effectiveness for it.

If you look again, you'll see I'm taking Slippery Mind before Improved Evasion.

Ah yes, I looked at the levels rogues get new feats from the list and skimmed over it.
You have it listed at lv14.

[Thanimal]

Yeah... then I said bust out a tower shield instead?

There are plenty of Intimitanks that use one-handed weapons and Tower Shields. And this build has higher AC than most of those, and deals more damage than many of them when tanking (comparing Tower Shield mode of traditional tank vs. non-SA mode of this build, as discussed in the thread). It also has trap skills, sneak attack, Slippery Mind, Improved Evasion with a ridiculous reflex save, and the ability to dual-wield mean effects like Weakening/Enfeebling [with Crippling Strike someday]. Traditional intimitanks have plenty of advantages, too -- in no way am I saying this build "beats" them. But it's fundamentally different and offers many things those others paths cannot.

I don't think you're suggesting that THIS build should bust out a Tower Shield, but just in case anyone is thinking that: That results in a massive drop in AC, because your DEX bonus is then limited to 4 (assuming Mithral) -- giving up 9 additional points of DEX AC.

[Lagartto]

Thanimal

What weapons are you primarily using with this build before the expected max level. When both tanking and running as dps? Are you sticking to monk only weapons all the time?

Thanks!

[Thanimal]

Thanimal

What weapons are you primarily using with this build before the expected max level. When both tanking and running as dps? Are you sticking to monk only weapons all the time?

Thanks!

Yes, Monk weapons nearly all the time right now; plan to change when I can make Radiance Kukris. One "annoying" thing about this build is that I carry a crazy number of weapons. I don't have the STR to get past DR, so I have all sorts of specialized weapons for that. Then I have various Bane weapons since my attack rate is really fast but my damage-per-hit is poor (when not sneak attacking). So Greater Bane can add up to some pretty decent DPS in some cases.

Probably my "primary" weapon is the Vorpal Kama. This is good both when tanking (as it substitutes for poor DPS) and for sneak attacking (where nearly all my damage comes for SA anyhow, so the occasional random kill is a bonus). Note that Vorpal ignores crit range, so dual Kamas in Wind Stance is the fastest rate of Vorpalling in the game. When I really need to ramp up the DPS, I use +5 Acid Handwraps of Backstabbing. Those can really put out some damage when somebody else is Intimidating.

I also try to be sensitive to the monster's weaknesses. Frost/Pure Good Kamas are very nice when those show purple numbers, e.g. against Fire Elementals.

When it comes to Banishing and the like, I'm torn about what weapon to use. Handwraps have many advantages, but poor critical range. If I could find those kind of effects on Rapiers or Kukris, I'd probably accept being out of stance. But I think prefer staying in stance to "only" double the crit range. Not sure.

I'll actually be pretty psyched when I can clean out a lot of this junk from inventory and use the Radiance Kukris against almost everything!

[adRyft]

Questions on your experiences playing this build:

Why the +1 intelligence tome? is a 13 Int a prereq for something that I'm unaware of? I'm considering eating the +1 Int tome anyway, as a prereq for taking Combat Expertise at 6th level (instead of Dodge), and then switching it later on. CE would give me a pretty solid AC at lower levels, I'm thinking. Does this seem a valid strategy, or is the penalty to-hit likely to be too severe this early on? I'd likely only have it on when using intimidate, to be honest.

You have +4 bumps on Dex listed.... where are you planning to put the 5th? Con, perhaps?

What sort of gear do you recommend using as one plays this from the ground up, assuming a lack of higher end loot to hand down to the toon? At the moment I'm only 3rd level, and finding that my rate of attack and overall damage is better with fists than kamas or anything else, and AC will likely remain horrible until I get some Black Widow Bracers. Is this likely to remain the case for some time, for me?

In your above comments on your playing experiences, what type of gear did you have available to you? I'm only curious, because if you are saying "at such-and-such a level I will have a good enough AC that I can start intimitanking," I'd like to know what that benchmark AC is, roughly. The AC breakdown at 20th level is quite comprehensive, but no such breakdown exists for lower levels, is all.

***

+1 - Thanks for the amazing build!

[Thanimal]

Questions on your experiences playing this build:

Why the +1 intelligence tome? is a 13 Int a prereq for something that I'm unaware of? I'm considering eating the +1 Int tome anyway, as a prereq for taking Combat Expertise at 6th level (instead of Dodge), and then switching it later on. CE would give me a pretty solid AC at lower levels, I'm thinking. Does this seem a valid strategy, or is the penalty to-hit likely to be too severe this early on? I'd likely only have it on when using intimidate, to be honest.

Think you answered your own question, there. CE is in the build and is nearly always on once your to-hit can support it. I would not recommend CE earlier -- you'll miss way too much. However, you can go S&B through the early levels -- there is a good post on how to do that in the thread.

You have +4 bumps on Dex listed.... where are you planning to put the 5th? Con, perhaps?

This was a 16-level build that I never updated. But anyhow you'll almost never find a serious builder who splits level bumps -- for various reason that is VERY rarely optimal. Same story here: Last one is in DEX, too.

What sort of gear do you recommend using as one plays this from the ground up, assuming a lack of higher end loot to hand down to the toon? At the moment I'm only 3rd level, and finding that my rate of attack and overall damage is better with fists than kamas or anything else, and AC will likely remain horrible until I get some Black Widow Bracers. Is this likely to remain the case for some time, for me?

Yep, get all the AC equipment you can. It is all critical. Fighting with fists is probably best up to about level 10. One thing to look for soon is a Robe of Winter. This is awesome at level 4 and I still bust mine out occasionally.

In your above comments on your playing experiences, what type of gear did you have available to you? I'm only curious, because if you are saying "at such-and-such a level I will have a good enough AC that I can start intimitanking," I'd like to know what that benchmark AC is, roughly. The AC breakdown at 20th level is quite comprehensive, but no such breakdown exists for lower levels, is all.

Easy rule of thumb: You can tank if you have a self-buff AC of 3 * quest level + 16.

+1 - Thanks for the amazing build!

Thanks! It's a fun one and very versatile. But it can be a little frustrating to play against stuff that has sneak attack immunity and heavy DR. That's why you need a backpack filled with specialized weapons and a bunch of hot-bars to be able to switch quickly.

[adRyft]

Think you answered your own question, there. CE is in the build and is nearly always on once your to-hit can support it. I would not recommend CE earlier -- you'll miss way too much. However, you can go S&B through the early levels -- there is a good post on how to do that in the thread.

My bad... I seem to have missed CE in your initial post. Maybe I didn't recognize the acronym or something. Glad I figured out what that tome was for, all the same.

Easy rule of thumb: You can tank if you have a self-buff AC of 3 * quest level + 16.

This equation is a great benefit to me as a novice player! Thanks again!

I plan to slow-level this character... I started him early because I needed a lowbie to play alongside newer clan members who were hoping for some guidance, so if he levels too quickly I lose out on having him as a resource, and have to start yet another toon. Slow leveling will give me the opportunity to get the tomes and other equipment over time that I need to flesh it out, as I have a higher level character that's proving quite useful for hand-me downs.

[adRyft]

Update:

Almost level 8 now. Very impressed with the build. It's not unusual for me to come in very high in the kill-count when playing him, though I am playing this very much as a traditional rogue, and the speed of sneak attacks is very brutal and makes up for the mixed build. I think at the moment I'm using +1 True Law Bleed handwraps as my main weapon, with a couple pairs for alternate stuff and some back up kamas for zombie killing, and even when I can't sneak attack due to high aggro the fury of this guy brings things down quickly. I don't have any uber greater-bane or vorpal weapons, yet, so the fact that this build stands without them says a lot.

Still missing my +1 Con and +1 Wis tome. I'll get them within a few levels, I'm guessing.

LoH is awesome for utility. I often use it on others, since I don't get hit too frequently. It's saved a LOT of squishies. My decision to rest is often based on whether or not I used up my LoH or not.

I'm sort of lazy with the armor class buffs, and quickly realizing that it's a bad idea when tanking for squishes. Right now I'm using shield clickies, Paladin AC boost, Uncanny Dodge, and +2 equipped items. The clickies drop me out of defensive fighting mode a lot, so I've been leaving it off. I also haven't been using the various wands of +4 stat boosting spells that I have, which could raise my AC even higher. When I use everything my AC easily outpaces my level 12 exploiter build, though that's probably no great feat.

The Monk update gave me some extra enhancement points to play with. I think in the long run I might keep Paladin AC boost as a permanent addition, as I can keep it on with uncanny dodge, and it stacks with everything (that I can tell). Less certain about being able to use it with Showtime at rogue level 12, but... 5 extra uses of something is always good!

For now the extra points are being put into the first level of search/disarm... the lower than usual Int is proving to annoy some of the groups I've been in... his trap skills weren't the best I've seen at low levels. People seem to think the build is silly because traps were a bit hard... they have a hard time "getting" the build. Of course, I've been set for a while now, as I got better UMD for Foxes Cunning wands, and solid skill boost gear (mixed +5/+7).

People see my performance and usual build and often ask about it. It's kinda neat.

[Xezno]

I expect this build to play a lot like my tempest intimi rogue that i left on EU. When u get GS go for the rapier. Rad2 is all about crit range. My build is a 13rog/6ranger/1monk.

Intimidate is very nice to use on all but raid bosses. Your DPS will surpass most builds on bosses and surpass just about anything on normal mobs because of crippling strike (best feat ever). Your AC will be as good as if not better than most shield tanks. You can get over 500 hp at lvl 20 with the right gear - which combined with improved evation will make you allmost indestructible.

This build had me hooked for over a year... Pity i had to leave him behind with all that stuff.

[adRyft]

Vyral hit level 10 a while ago. Still having fun with him, as my tertiary character. I'm already going through the expense of grinding out AC gear for my exploiter ranger, so I'm keeping my cleric as my secondary since she's a lot cheaper to outfit and requires less grind-time to be effective at her level.

My AC with this character at level 10 is already about the same as my level 15 exploiter (about a 50 at peak), despite the fact that I'm only using +4 ability score gear to her +6, or the fact that I can't rely on casting my own uber barkskin, or the fact that I'm not a high enough level for +5 deflection bonus items. The exploiter's AC is consistently higher, but Vyral's has more room to grow without unique loot.

I'm finding that secondary effects serve my team mates well. Since he's not reliant on weapon effects for DPS all the time because of sneak attack, I am starting to splash in multiple debuffs when possible. When absolute DPS is needed, I stick to handwraps, but of late I'm working with kamas more. Currently favoring a Cursespewing kama and a Paralyzing kama. Later on I'd love to start using Improved Cursespewing, Improved Destruction, or Shattermantle as general purpose debuffs to make my team mates more effective. Even with effects that allow saving throws, with TWF and air-stance I can often force through one or two of them on an enemy within seconds. Moving rapidly from target to target keeps my sneak attack working, too, since I'm generally ignoring targets that start to focus on me.

I'm realizing that certain types of foes are going to present problems, eventually. I'm saving up cash for disruption, greater contruct bane, and similar effects on handwraps.

Saving up action points for next level... my first shot of Thief Acrobat. Can't wait!

[Merlocke]

havent read this entire post. stopped when i saw you CON. more CON dude. that is all.

[Asymetric_War]

[COLOR="Lime"]

Hit Points
20: base
72: 12 Rogue
16: 2 Monk
20: 2 Paladin
18: Toughness
30: Toughness Enhancement
30: Greater False Life
20: Minos hat
48: CON bonus
---
274 (significantly more possible with raid loot)

Ok, so hit points aren't very good. But if always in hit-on-20 and save-on-1 (for half), this still seems like "enough." And we do have a LoH for 84 to a "virtual" HP total of 358. (Through level 12, my hit points have been PLENTY, but I must admit they are a bit front-loaded. At some point I may have to prioritize some farming for HP items.)

ENJOY!!

274 hp at 16 makes this build utterly worthless as a tank. That is all, no rebuttal is possible.

[adRyft]

274 hp at 16 makes this build utterly worthless as a tank. That is all, no rebuttal is possible.

kthnxbye.

Update 5 brought some changes to this build. One really big boon is that my combat expertise no longer goes down whenever I hit a shield wand or clicky, which is VERY nice. DPS is about the same with wraps, slightly less with TWF, of course.

Tanked through Tempest Spine with a good guild group, and had a hard time pre-update 5 due to the time it takes to buff my AC properly.

Today I made an investment in using better buffs. With my first toon capped at 20, +3 barkskin pots by the vat full are no longer that expensive for me to buy. I'm also capable of UMDing with ease my 5-minute shield wands rather than needing to use 1-minute clickies, so the AC is a lot more stable. Stoneskin wands are nice for taking the sting out of those glancing blows. This guy is still a blast to play.

Went through Tempest Spine with a short-manned and BAD pick up group. Did a lot better, but learned some things.

1) level 11 will be a godsend to get my Minos. Already have the tap shreds banked. I need heavy fort to cut out the occasional freak critical hit. I had forgotten to use my shield wand after shrining once, and a Drow Blackguard critted me and there went half my health. Accidents happen, and accidents are less tragic with heavy fort.
2) with CE running, and with TWF and +1 effects based kamas and water stance, I was missing in Tempest Spine. A lot. For a group with **** poor DPS, that meant 1/4 of the way through the quest I switched to +4 or better wraps and air stance. Much better results, even though I was theoretically more vulnerable to casters.

Intim-locked Sorjek for the group after 4 people dropped. Very smooth end fight, except for one unlucky thunder bolt that stung a bit. Of course, since I'm pretty much melee-only I got blown off the edge at the end... :?

Landed on the doorway back into the mountain, though. Was kind of convenient.

[FireAge]

Building something very similar at the moment.

But I was planning on going for a Drow Rogue12 / Paladin2 / Monk6.
This way, I can get ninja spy I, which will allow me to use short swords as ki weapons.

Do you think this is a good idea?
Or some feedback on why it's a bad idea?

I'll loose two rogue feats, 3d6 SA, and some skill points, but I'll gain:
Immunity to disease.
+2 to saves on enchantments.
+1 Monk AC
Ninja Shadow Fade
3 monk feats (2,3,6)
Monk WIS +2
+2 fort, +2 wis, +1 refl
Ki on sword swords with all the drow enhancements and follower of vulcoor
+2 BAB
+1d6 SA
+2 balance/hide/move silently