Drow Rogue Intimitank (no, I'm not kidding)

[Samadhi]

Not enough HP. As Gunga said *DING*

[Thanimal]

Cool, I'm looking forward to updates. If you don't mind, make new posts so it pops back to the top.

You know, even if a Rogue doesn't try to be an Intimitank, it's great to invest in that skill for the times you need to save a squishy. Focusing on a high AC and just playing like a traditional Rogue will still play just great, and when you get the aggro you'll be able to handle it.

I am really glad you are interested, but I'm not sure I can emphasize enough just how slow my pace is. If you want to know how this build fares in the end game, you'll have to convince somebody else to build it! That said, I will try to make updates for as long as I'm still playing this guy, and I'll take your advice and make them as new posts.

I recently dinged 6 and with Divine Grace my saves are now a very big asset. But AC-wise I can only claim "passable" unless I throw on all sorts of temporary buffs. I've had the chance to use Intimidate a little bit and to good effect, but it will only be situational for a while yet. I won't have the AC to handle "all aggro all the time" until my DEX and WIS start to get Monty Haully and I can Shield off a Wand and use Improved Uncanny Dodge on the real baddies.

EDIT: Also pretty handy at 6 is Lay on Hands. Currently at 48 and will go to 60 soonish (level 7 at the latest; sooner if I decide to eat a CHA Tome). I wouldn't call this a game-changer, but it sure does save some cash and some effort when soloing.

Of course, the important part is this guy has been REALLY FUN. I'm not normally the sort who plays the same character regularly -- often I'll play 5 different characters in 5 play sessions. But since I built Vandt I've been finding I almost always feel like playing him.

One "problem" I am seeing is that I may not *want* to Intimidate even when I should be! It's so fun to spew sneak attack damage and try to compete with the DPS builds for kill count! (Which I often can, even with only 3 levels of Rogue so far.) And I guess that leads back to your comment above: This seems to be a quite nice way to build a Rogue even if you aren't planning to Intimidate except situationally. I sure hope that *someday* I get to use some Radiance weapons with this guy! Against the trash, that should be FUUUUN.

[Stonebread]

This is similar to what I plan when I rerolled my Rog8/Pal3/Rng2 (Ranger 2 was a waste). The biggest difference is that I am delaying the Monk levels and TWF until much later. Going sword and board and using armor provides better AC at low levels. I'll probably switch over around lvl 9.

[Thanimal]

This is similar to what I plan when I rerolled my Rog8/Pal3/Rng2 (Ranger 2 was a waste). The biggest difference is that I am delaying the Monk levels and TWF until much later. Going sword and board and using armor provides better AC at low levels. I'll probably switch over around lvl 9.

Seems like a very reasonable option. My early levels tankiness is indeed a little questionable, but I'm liking the TWF DPS with Wind Stance. If anybody is thinking of building something like this, I'd suggest considering Stonebread's suggestion for sure, but I'm also happy with what I've done.

[Thanimal]

I just read a great Intimitank build from Aaxeyu (of Monster fame):

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174962

This build addresses fairly different goals, with the only real commonality being that both can Intimidate effectively. (My build has many advantages, his has many advantages.) But I highlight it mainly because it shows that, under Mod 9, it will be possible to build an Intimitank whose DPS is *way* above mine in non-Sneak-Attack situations.

Status update on Vandt: I'm inching toward level 8 now, and still absolutely loving this build. I feel like I have something fun and/or important to do in almost every situation. My saves are excellent and I feel so much more durable than I'm used to from "real" Rogues. But, as expected, I'm on an AC plateau at the moment where I'm not a true tank. This build gets a lot of its AC at higher levels -- somewhere between 10 and 13 is where, on paper, I can finally say "I want all aggro on me all the time."

But it turns out I'm having so much fun as a reasonably-durable sneak attacker (with flying fists thanks to Lesser Wind Stance), that I'm not missing the full-tank AC at all. I have found it to be true that I can keep up in kill counts with most DPS builds [except against Undead!!], and it is really fun to just run into the fray and spew sneak attack damage without being unduly worried about the aggro that may generate. And I have all the usual good stuff of a real Rogue, such as trap-monkey skilz and UMD.

Of course, I am looking forward to getting great AC someday to go with my great saves -- once I get there, those will probably be the most informative reports I'll make (someday!!).

I remain sold on the build, even if you prefer to take it in a non-Intimidate direction (which probably says Halfling, although I haven't really thought that through).

[Thanimal]

I just hit level 9, and I ended up making a minor modification to my build plan: Take the 2nd Monk level at 9.

I realized that Rogue 6 isn't offering me anything I can use immediately (Acrobat I and Dex II will be great later, but I can't spare the APs for those right now). Perhaps more importantly, this plan enables me to make a sudden jump to "pretty tanky" at level 9. I now have a standing AC of 39 (will be 40 with one more action point for Monk WIS), so I'll shortly be able to Barkskin to 43 and briefly self-buff to 51 (Shield clickie, then reactivate CE, then Uncanny Dodge). My experience with my previous tanks suggests that low 40s as a level 9 is pretty tanky unless trying to "reach" with a 9-12 group doing something difficult. (And in that case, just don't Intimidate and be a "tough Rogue" instead!)

I should now be able to stay ahead of "tanky pace" from here out. As a HUGE bonus, I also picked up Improved TWF at 9, so all-in-all it appears my DPS will actually go *slightly* up even though I am now adding on -5 to-hit from CE.

I'm excited to run as a real tank soon, but first some parting comments about level 8:

Level 8 is the low point for tankiness. Saves are GREAT, but even with the help of Tomes and Barkskin, I could only reach AC of 33 -- not awful but certainly not worthy of Intimidating in remotely challenging content. That said, level 8 provided me with a ton of enthusiasm for the build because I was often able to lead in kills, or at least honorable mention. On my last mission as a level 8 I actually managed to lead several parts of Delera's in kills. (Note: No sneak attack.) Don't read TOO much into that: it was a short-man where the only DPS build was 3 levels below me. But to even be "in the discussion" on a run with zero sneak attack had me pretty pumped. This was the first time I ran this build with a full Warchanter, and WOW is that good for me. My punch rate is fantastic (high base + Wind Stance + Haste + situational RHB), so a flat + to each hit adds up FAST.

Love this build. If only I could figure out how to make it be a WF! (I got Held by some Earth Elementals recently and remembered that a 5% chance of failing a save is a LOT more than 0%!)

[Grenfell]

I have a halfling rogue (Ashae -- you can do a search for it) that is rather similar.

The strongest thing I can recommend is to wait on that second monk level and go for 12 Rogue until the level cap goes up. It's simply ridiculous how great Acrobat II is on this sort of build. Knockdown immunity is simply delicious.

And I have Intimidate on the build. And I use it, quite often. Great for things like Hound tanking (immune to knockdown, enormous AC, huge saves) and lock the little dogs on me at all times.

Because my build is a halfling, I'm afraid I take a huge size penalty to Intimidate. So I won't be intimidate-locking Sully in VOD. But Orthons, I can lock no problem.

358 hp is really not bad when you're routinely hitting 70 AC in raid groups. I actually think I can drop 20 or so hp and not have it matter all that much.

Anyhow, get Rogue 12 for Acrobat II; you really won't regret it.

/gren

[Thanimal]

Anyhow, get Rogue 12 for Acrobat II; you really won't regret it.
/gren

Agreed. I am doing this by postponing Paladin 3. So at current cap I am 12/2/2. I MAY then take Paladin 3 @ level 18, after my second Rogue bonus feat at Rogue 13.

I need to make several updates to my original post based on my experience and recent feedback. Hopefully get to that soon.

I think this build is better as a Halfling in many ways, but I kinda wanted to try all-out Intimitank, so wasn't willing to eat the -5 difference (1 from lower CHA; 4 from size).

[Thanimal]

358 hp is really not bad when you're routinely hitting 70 AC in raid groups. I actually think I can drop 20 or so hp and not have it matter all that much.
/gren

Hey -- how did I not notice this part on my first read! This has been one of the biggest questions in my mind. On paper, I had a compelling justification that HP were not extremely important to this build (so long as I could avoid instant death from one or two lucky shots). But in the back of my mind I always worried I'd be wrong. So your experience here is EXTREMELY valuable -- it basically eliminates the last thing I thought could be a serious negative. Thanks!

[Thanimal]

Just dinged 10 (by FAR my personal best time to level 10, although my pace is never going to impress ANYONE), and I finally took the time to update the original post to reflect my latest plan.

Level 9 was basically awesome. I finally got to fairly tanky AC (40 base; option of Shield, Barkskin, Haste to 48 and once in a while even Uncanny Dodge to 52 for a few seconds), and picking up Improved TWF resulted in a pretty big increase in DPS, despite eating the -5 to-hit of CE. I still found myself only using Intimidate situationally, but my lack of fear meant I could rotate targets like crazy and spew sneak attack damage all over the room. If memory serves, I only got outkilled one time as a level 9, and that included two full runs of Deleras (no Sneak Attack). I'm not saying some uber Ranger couldn't outkill me easily, but I did outkill one who probably wasn't all that uber . Still, I felt like a pretty legitimate DPS build while *also* walking around with near-tank AC and full-tank saves with Evasion.

Note to anybody who tries this build, though: Place a high priority on getting SOME Transmuting option. WOW does the DPS drop precipitously against high DR combined with Sneak Attack immunity. Even though I led both VoN3 and VoN4 in kills (and at the bottom of the level range of the party), my damage output was essentially ZERO against those particular bosses. (If anybody wants to donate some good finessable Transmuters, I will say Thank You many times!)

Level 10 is a little bit of a plateau -- some marginal gains, but nothing to write home about. No AC increase here, but I believe this is the last time I'll level up without an AC increase. Saves improve a little, but I haven't failed ANYTHING except on a 1 in several levels now anyhow. And no major DPS increases here, except from weapon improvements unlocked at 10. Theoretically, I unlock Acrobat I, but that isn't actually THAT great until I get Improved Uncanny Dodge, so I'm just starting to save up the action points to make sure I can grab Acrobat I by 12 (Rogue 8).

Final Note: I just moved Vandt to the first position in my signature. He is truly my "main."

[Thanimal]

Quick one: This weekend I got to show off both of my potential roles in one day. I ran as a DPS (with a Paladin Intimitank) in a Stormcleave/Elite and finished 2nd in kills (BY ONE -- no doubt a player with less sucky twitch skills than I have would have won). Later that day I ran as an Intimitank in a Xorian/Elite. That quest is a bit caster heavy, so admittedly kind of a best-case for my "pretty good" AC (44 most of the time) and my "great" saves (24/28/24 most of the time). Still, it just feels so friggin' cool that I can join a party and then become whatever type of melee they need. Oh, and I can do traps and stuff.

[rimble]

Been thinking about this s'more, first, didn't spend more than one build point on any ability raise:

Lawful Good, Drow
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 16

Second, in my experience, you're way better off in armor and shield up until you at least get ITWF at 9th level, so I'll put off Monk for a bit. Also, 3 Intimidate is nice, but 5 damage from Power Attack when you're not needing to turtle up is better:

1, Rogue, Toughness
2, Paladin
3, Rogue, Weapon Finesse
4, Paladin
5, Rogue
6, Rogue, TWF
7, Rogue
8, Rogue
9, Rogue, ITWF
10, Monk, Combat Expertise
11, Rogue
12, Rogue, Power Attack
13, Rogue
14, Rogue
15, Rogue, GTWF
16, Monk, Dodge (or maybe shuffle Power Attack here and SF: Intimidate into your level 12 slot if you need that +3)

I'd aim for Rogue 16 as a good break point: 16 Rogue/2 Paladin/2 Monk. Rogue 17 sucks, there's no BaB nor Save increase, but at 16 you get another Rogue Feat. I don't see the value in Paladin 3, especially versus Monk 2 (16/3/1 vs 16/2/2), but if you don't care about another Rogue Feat I can see 15 Rogue/3 Paladin/2 Monk. Getting Crippling Strike, Slippery Mind (rolling a 1 on those Hold spells is fatal, and incredibly frustrating), and Improved Evasion sounds nice to me though...but really, with a Reflex save that high, Improved Evasion doesn't matter a whole lot.

I'll think more about 15/3/2 and just taking Crippling Strike and Slippery Mind.

[Thanimal]

Been thinking about this s'more, first, didn't spend more than one build point on any ability raise:

Lawful Good, Drow
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 16

Second, in my experience, you're way better off in armor and shield up until you at least get ITWF at 9th level, so I'll put off Monk for a bit. Also, 3 Intimidate is nice, but 5 damage from Power Attack when you're not needing to turtle up is better:

1, Rogue, Toughness
2, Paladin
3, Rogue, Weapon Finesse
4, Paladin
5, Rogue
6, Rogue, TWF
7, Rogue
8, Rogue
9, Rogue, ITWF
10, Monk, Combat Expertise
11, Rogue
12, Rogue, Power Attack
13, Rogue
14, Rogue
15, Rogue, GTWF
16, Monk, Dodge (or maybe shuffle Power Attack here and SF: Intimidate into your level 12 slot if you need that +3)

I'd aim for Rogue 16 as a good break point: 16 Rogue/2 Paladin/2 Monk. Rogue 17 sucks, there's no BaB nor Save increase, but at 16 you get another Rogue Feat. I don't see the value in Paladin 3, especially versus Monk 2 (16/3/1 vs 16/2/2), but if you don't care about another Rogue Feat I can see 15 Rogue/3 Paladin/2 Monk. Getting Crippling Strike, Slippery Mind (rolling a 1 on those Hold spells is fatal, and incredibly frustrating), and Improved Evasion sounds nice to me though...but really, with a Reflex save that high, Improved Evasion doesn't matter a whole lot.

I'll think more about 15/3/2 and just taking Crippling Strike and Slippery Mind.

That all sounds pretty good to me. My start stats are optimized toward the Tomes I think I'm actually gonna get -- if lots of +2s and even some +3s are likely to be coming your way then different start stats make total sense. Rearranging the low levels is just personal preference, of course, but I enjoyed competing for kills as a lowbie, and found my "OK" AC was still fine for soloing. I like Power Attack, but just prefer to go all-out Intimitank.

I think you make a very compelling case that 16/2/2 is the way to go for the long term, which conveniently eliminates any need for me to tout Improved Evasion. I hadn't spent much time thinking about level 20, and I keep wanting to sneak Paladin 3 back in, mainly for the second LoH. But I'm afraid it's downright obvious that ANY of Improved Evasion, Slippery Mind, or Crippling Strike are better. I'll update the build post to reflect that.

Thanks for your continued interest and feedback. I think there are a lot of ways to steer this sort of build, including to treating Intimidate as just a sideline and being a Halfling. I sure do love the path I'm heading down so far.

[Thanimal]

Wait a second! You can't take Power Attack unless you assume in a +3 Tome to hit the STR 13 requirement. And in my build, I'd need a +4 Tome. So not a consideration for me, and if you really want it I think you need to put a few more points into STR, which personally I'd be VERY hesitant to do. Or, if you can assume in +3 Tomes, then more power to you!

[rimble]

Wait a second! You can't take Power Attack unless you assume in a +3 Tome to hit the STR 13 requirement. And in my build, I'd need a +4 Tome. So not a consideration for me, and if you really want it I think you need to put a few more points into STR, which personally I'd be VERY hesitant to do. Or, if you can assume in +3 Tomes, then more power to you!

Nope, no +3 tome, just a brain fart. I'll still plan for Power Attack but it'll most likely be once he's capped and finds a +3 tome. He's 4th level now, 31 AC, I could Intimitank, but I don't need to group yet, grouping would just slow me down, hehe. Wearing armor for now and not worrying about Evasion or Wisdom-to-AC just yet.

[Thanimal]

Nope, no +3 tome, just a brain fart. I'll still plan for Power Attack but it'll most likely be once he's capped and finds a +3 tome. He's 4th level now, 31 AC, I could Intimitank, but I don't need to group yet, grouping would just slow me down, hehe. Wearing armor for now and not worrying about Evasion or Wisdom-to-AC just yet.

Sounds great. If you have time, post some of your experiences here. I am pretty darn sure you're going to pass me soon and then leave me in the dust, so your experiences could be a lot more valuable than mine for those interested in the end-game. Although technically your build is a little different, I think it's close enough that having all the "data" in one place makes sense.

Hope you have as much fun with it as I have been! Watch out for Beholders, though -- my one regret is that I can't seem to justify this build as a Warforged. But I may yet try: I've found myself wanting to play this build over all my other characters, so it wouldn't be crazy to have a second just-barely-different one for lower level guild groups.

[Thanimal]

Ding! 11!

Level 10 was, at times, pretty amazing, but it also showed through one big weakness: I am no Warforged.

Beholders cheat! I suppose, technically, I'm better against Beholders than the vast majority of fleshies. But this is my first fleshy to face a Beholder, and wow do those things eat fleshies for lunch! It's really disappointing to have massive saves and just get wacked with 6 negative levels -- WITH NO SAVE. And there go the massive saves...

I also died to being Held several times over the course of level 10. Numerous times I saved on a 2, but 1's happen. 95% protection is sooo much less protection than 100%.

This actually made me seriously reconsider whether I can justify the build as a Warforged. With 28-points, I think the answer may still be no. But with 32-points, I think Warforged becomes a very legitimate choice -- *maybe* the best overall choice. Start stats are probably: DEX: 17, CHA: 14, STR: 9, CON: 10, INT: 12, WIS: 12. The end-game result is -2 on each of DEX, CHA, and WIS, but the AC nets out the same. So losses are 1 Intim, 1 UMD, 12 points of LoH, 1 to-hit, and -1/-2/-2 on saves. That's a long list, but each one is pretty minor. Saves were already "crazy," so in most cases that particular loss is not even noticed I think. And gaining immunities and perhaps 10 more hit points (WF toughness III might fit) could be overall better.

Don't get me wrong -- still loving this build and playing it whenever I can. But if anybody else considers it (I strongly recommend you do! ), and has 32-point builds, think seriously about Warforged.

My last day as a level 10 was pretty sweet. I joined a group for Xorian/Elite that needed a Rogue, but also turned out to be short an intimitank, so I did both. I even survived getting Danced (frigging 1s!) in "the big room." Then I started into Tear of Drakaan/Hard, building a PUG as we went. For the first 1/3 it was all squishies and me, so I was intimitank. Then a traditional intimitank joined us, so I swapped metaphorical hats and sneak attacked my way to a nearly 3:1 kill count lead. The fact that this build can excel in more than one role is probably what makes me almost always enter the game as Vandt, ignoring my other 9 guys.

I think the one thing I "learned" as a level 10 is that Slippery Mind could be great. I'm going to move it to first in the queue of Rogue feats. I bet 75% of my total deaths over levels 9 and 10 were caused by rolling 1s vs. will save effects (including the aforementioned Hold, of course). Having a 1 in 20 chance of being instantly incapacitated is sooo much worse than a 1 in 400 chance -- especially since Intimidate directs all the action at me! Although Crippling Strike and Improved Evasion will be awesome for me, too, there is now really no doubt in my mind that, if I absolutely had to pick just one, it would be Slippery Mind.

Level 11 brings +3 AC and a host of other goodness, especially after I figure out how the heck to rejigger my equipment to fit a Minos hat! Looking forward to it.

[Thanimal]

Ding 12! The big pick up here is Improved Uncanny Dodge and Acrobat I, so I can add a slightly silly EIGHT points to my AC for a few minutes.

Level 11 was a blast, but my play time has dropped even lower, and I expect my progress during the summer will be almost negligible. Realistically 13 may not happen until the fall.

Still, the build has just about "come together" now. As an 11 I've mostly ended up in the intimitank role, with only the occasoinal "DPS Mode" run, and I've been pretty successful intimidating and tanking up to level 14 quests (Prison of the Planes). Getting AC into the 50s is relatively easy now (with my Wand o' Shield 5th and Barkskin potions), and theoretically in just the right party I can get to 60. I continue to love my saves (22/28/22 unbuffed currently), but BOY am I looking forward to picking up Slippery Mind (@ 14). I haven't failed a will save on anything but a 1 in a long time, but with so many will save effects causing near or total uselessness, those 1s are getting OLD!

This may be my parting comment for the summer: You gotta try this build! I have never had so much fun, and felt so versatile and powerful with any other build. And I seem to still have a ton of great stuff coming in the future (roughly in order): Improved Uncanny Dodge (sooon!), Slippery Mind, Knockdown Immunity, Improved Evasion, DT robe, and Radiance Kukris are all things that seem likely to fundamentally improve my capability as an intimitank. AND, my DPS potential continues to scale because of Sneak Attack.

Now I just have to hope this game doesn't die before I get Vandt to 20...

[Thanimal]

I hit 13 a while back but haven't been playing that much recently, and focused on favor when I have been.

Still love the build, but honestly a bit worried about grazing hits. I already farmed up a Bloodrage Symbiont, which is a nice fit for the build ANYHOW, but I must admit I'm a little nervous that Mod 9 is gonna poke some holes in the huge AC / small HP plan.

Of course, that would hardly be the end of the world. Being a crazy-durable backstabber/trap guy is a perfectly good role. But I sure hope I'll be able to continue to lay down Intimidate against most stuff. That is fun and very effective.

I've had some experience recently where I defer a tanking role to a level 16 only to later realize that I'm far more durable as a 13. Obviously these must not have been the best builds around, but it's still fun to smile smugly.

[VKhaun]

6wis + 1monk = only 7ac... Including better gear and dodge as a monk feat you're still only at 9ac from monk and it cost you all that strength and item slots. I don't get it. You seem to be jumping through a lot of hoops to use the monk splash. Why not go 2 fighter instead for shield mastery enhancements? Give you some strength back for attacking, stop lots of glancing blows, and free up item slots.