Rank the Capstones!!!

[Angelus_dead]

True it has great uses, but I think it only works for physical damage. Ie; elemental/alignment and untyped damage will still overcome this capstone.

Certainly not.

All forms of hitpoint damage are the same to that capstone, and all of them can defeat it equally well: If it works as-written, then the first time someone drops to under 1 hp, the buff ends ~5 sec later.

[akiraproject24]

Rogue capstone is absolutely weak. Maybe a rogue based skill bonus, hide in plain sight (prolly wouldnt work this game). Definately multiclassing now after reading it.

Bard's capstone looks like it may be the most useful (and most thought out)

Really cant wait to see ranger and Barb capstones!

[Krago]

The rogue capstone is negated if he has a Cleric with capstone.

Rogue < Cleric

[BlackSteel]

1) bard
2) pally
3) wiz
4) cleric
5) rogue

the cleric capstone would make a better progressing enhancement rather than a capstone, 1,2, and 3 AP. Each rank heals your target for more hp after going incap. 25%/50%/75% HP would work fine, and put them around lvls 1,5, and 15.

Then redo the cleric capstone to resemble the bard or wiz, or a lesser pally one. +2 wisdom and 1d6 vs evil? Or -10% healing cost and faster casting on healing spells? Sorc speed casting on cures would be a nice capstone.

[ahpook]

While the wiz, paly and bard are obviously good due to more of the things we want at low cost the cleric one actually changes the rules and thus cannot be easily evaluated in isolation. It's value is hard to analyze in advance of seeing what the game is like at level 20. If there are lots of penalty boxes in those quests the Cleric capstone would be very important. The knocks against the cleric capstone remind me of the "Necropotence sucks" talk of yore. IMHO, the jury should still be out.

Now the wizard and bard capstones are obviously good because at the very least it would be = 8 free action points because you could drop the stat II and stat III (10 aps) and replace them with the capstone (2 ap). But they are actually much better than that.

The monk one is similar in that if you take the concentration enhancements this is at the very least a cheap refund of APs thus giving you back 8 APs. And more damage for the paly is obviously good but that could be dependent on the meta game of what enemies we face and if DPS regains ground on stat damage.

The rogue one while somewhat similar to cleric suffers significantly because its a rez. You might not be able to avoid the penalty box and there fore it is not rule bending. A scenario like the reaver where you rez in the penalty box and then hit the rez switch to recover from a party wipe could be interesting but the likelihood of that scenario reappearing is unlikely. And it really suffers because of that word "chance". If you cannot depend on an effect then you cannot use it strategically. Rogues that are pure for other reasons will try it out but they might not find it worth the 2 APs.

Although none of the capstones are reasons in themselves to stay pure, I could see a pure class taking them for 2 AP with the exception of the rogue one.

1. Wiz
2. Paly
3. Bard
4. Cleric*
5. Monk
99. Rogue

* this could move dramatically by the time we get to use it.

[Deathseeker]

While the wiz, paly and bard are obviously good due to more of the things we want at low cost the cleric one actually changes the rules and thus cannot be easily evaluated in isolation. It's value is hard to analyze in advance of seeing what the game is like at level 20. If there are lots of penalty boxes in those quests the Cleric capstone would be very important. The knocks against the cleric capstone remind me of the "Necropotence sucks" talk of yore. IMHO, the jury should still be out.

Now the wizard and bard capstones are obviously good because at the very least it would be = 8 free action points because you could drop the stat II and stat III (10 aps) and replace them with the capstone (2 ap). But they are actually much better than that.

The monk one is similar in that if you take the concentration enhancements this is at the very least a cheap refund of APs thus giving you back 8 APs. And more damage for the paly is obviously good but that could be dependent on the meta game of what enemies we face and if DPS regains ground on stat damage.

The rogue one while somewhat similar to cleric suffers significantly because its a rez. You might not be able to avoid the penalty box and there fore it is not rule bending. A scenario like the reaver where you rez in the penalty box and then hit the rez switch to recover from a party wipe could be interesting but the likelihood of that scenario reappearing is unlikely. And it really suffers because of that word "chance". If you cannot depend on an effect then you cannot use it strategically. Rogues that are pure for other reasons will try it out but they might not find it worth the 2 APs.

Although none of the capstones are reasons in themselves to stay pure, I could see a pure class taking them for 2 AP with the exception of the rogue one.

1. Wiz
2. Paly
3. Bard
4. Cleric*
5. Monk
99. Rogue

* this could move dramatically by the time we get to use it.

I rank this as the #1 response to this post.

/agree

[Gornin]

My problem with the cleric capstone is that it uses resources ( turn undead ) when every other capstone is passive.

[Inkblack]

Updated with the sorc capstone...

[Pyromaniac]

Time to add the sorc capstone to the list, I'll put it last after rogue. Given the sheer usefulness of DPS casting at end game. Not anywhere as good as what the wizards got.

[maddmatt70]

Time to add the sorc capstone to the list, I'll put it last after rogue. Given the sheer usefulness of DPS casting at end game. Not anywhere as good as what the wizards got.

Dps is useful for arcanes in so many scenarios form polar raying in the shroud to firewalling in the vale and some of the vale quests, sorjek, etc. Ball lightning is alot of arcanes new favorite damage spell what have you. Because you have not found much use for dps does not mean it is not useful it just means you have not figured out how to use dps..

[Pyromaniac]

Guess your raid groups contain 6+ sorcs instead of 6+ melees then if sorc DPS > melee DPS?

[Vyctor]

Slightly off topic - If the rogue capstone is feign death instead of cheat death, it would be great.

Imagine a rogue getting lots of aggro, he activate Feign Death, bam!, he shakes off all the aggro. It's great too in solo, the mobs just start wandering off thinking he's dead.

Actually that might be much more viable as a rogue capstone. Something similar to the feign death ability in Army of Two.

[maddmatt70]

Guess your raid groups contain 6+ sorcs instead of 6+ melees then if sorc DPS > melee DPS?

I have been on 19 min shroud speeds with 3 sorcs before. They all had the glacial item set..

[shores11]

My rankings...

So, what do you think? The capstones are listed below so you don't have to jump all over the place to compare.

--------------------------------------------

???, Level 20 Barbarian
Cost: ??? AP
Benefit: ???

Bard Musical Prodigy, Level 20 Bard - # 4
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You gain +2 Charisma, two additional uses of Bardic Music, as well as +2 to Spell Penetration checks and the DC's of your Enchantment spells. Your beneficial songs last 20% longer.

Divine Intervention, Level 20 Cleric - # 3
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You are a strong conduit of positive energy, and can expend a turn attempt to ward your target for five minutes against mortal damage - hit point damage will not lower their hit point total below -9. If the target is knocked unconscious, this effect will heal the target after a few seconds and then fade.

???, Level 20 Fighter
Cost: ??? AP
Benefit: ???

Serenity, Level 20 Monk - # 7
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: You are a paragon of understanding and serenity. Your Concentration is increased by 10 and your centered ki generation is increased by 1.

Paladin Weapons of Good, Level 20 Paladin - # 2
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned for purposes of bypassing damage reduction, deal 1d6 additional holy damage against all evil opponents and an additional 2d6 light damage against evil undead or evil outsiders.

???, Level 20 Ranger
Cost: ??? AP
Benefit: ???

Cheat Death, Level 20 Rogue - # 5
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: A master rogue can defy even death if their luck holds out. You have a chance of self-resurrection should you die, but this chance drops each time you die between rests. Maruts have a particular dislike for you.

Sorcerer Power Surge, Level 20 Sorcerer - # 6
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: All of your damage dealing spells deal 10% more damage, have their critical chance increased by 3%, and their critical multipliers increased by an additional 0.25.

Master of Magic, Level 20 Wizard - # 1
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Grants +2 Intelligence and all metamagics you possess cost 1 fewer spell point to use. (Heighten Spell costs 1 fewer spell point per level of heightening.)

[vainangel]

SO a Wiz gets a + to his stats... Sorc gets DAMAGE boots...

I think not.
Faster casting no cost, +CHR, +SP

or something...

[Inkblack]

Since I never actually ranked them:

1 - Wizard - This enhancement is passive and adds to spell DC's which impacts most of what the class does. Aided by the fact that it is a one stat class, and that the role is pretty well defined.

2 - Paladin - Nice passive DPS addition, although only useful in certain situations. Does benefit from the fact that currently many end game mobs fit the enhancement. Risks going in and out of favor depending upon the last update.

3 - Sorcerer - A good passive enhancement used in many spells, although it doesn't benefit the FoD specialists. Not as powerful as wizard, which helps restore a bit of balance.

4 - Bard - Spell pen will help, longer songs is nice, but doesn't address ineffectiveness of non-buff bard songs at upper levels. Decent enhancement, I'd still take it.

5 - Monk - At least it's passive. I'm not sure how effective this is though. Watching monks ki bar fill up doesn't seem to take long even without this enhancement, so I really question how useful this is.

6 - Cleric - Active, and wards against physical damage. Even when it gets used, I can see getting knocked down to -9 hps, then getting hit with enervation, poison, or any number of other spells and finished off. What happens when we get knocked down to -9, then another monster walks by and AOE's us or something? If it takes any time at all to get healed, or doesn't heal us sufficiently, this is a complete waste.

DFL - Rogue - This just props up weak rogues. The word chance worries me a great deal. The chance should be very high (>90%) for the first death, then rapidly descending for anyone to consider this. I'm not going to waste enhancement points on this no matter what percentage it takes. Good rogues are not squishy.


TBD: Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger

Ink

[Monkey_Archer]

1 - Bard - Allows bards to obtain the highest spell pen in the game and highest DC in the game. Only wizards will be able to match bard DC. Longer songs and more songs are helpful, and at the very least will save AP.

2 - Fighter - Great capstone. Pure fighters have been sub-par compared to all the multiple multiclass fighter options for a while... good reward for those who stayed pure.

3 - Wizard - Great capstone and very fitting. Finally gives the wizard something they can do better then a sorc.

3 - Sorcerer - Tied with Wizard for good reason. Metamagic part of wizard capstone will not even come close to the extra sp a sorc has. Leaves wizard better for CC sorcs better for nuking, nothing new here.

4 - Paladin - Good boost for a pure class that needs it.

5 - Ranger - Good for the ranged rangers, but doesn't address the ineffectiveness of ranged combat in general. Just glad they didnt make this some sort of tempest-like TWF boost.

6 - Barbarian - +2 strength? Cant complain about that. Nice to know the devs are leaning as far away from toothpick barbs as they possilby can

7 - Monk - This one is tough to judge. Has different benefit to different monk styles. A wisdom monk will like having a qp or other ki moves ready to go. A Strength monk in firestance already has difficulty using all the ki they have anyway and benefits very little from this. I do like the thought of endless abundant steps though
This one could easily move up if they add more usages for ki.

8 - Cleric - Could be #1 in the right situation... dont know how usefull this will be in the new content. Could be completely useless as most good groups in most quests can expect 0 deaths anyway. I would really like to see somthing passive that benefits the cleric though... like +2 wisdom for example

9 - Rogue - Last place under the assumption that the first "chance" is 100% and reduces by 20% each time .... just like the cleric, this is only effective if the rogue DIES. and loses all buffs would like to see +2 intel or dex added.


For reference i play a pure fighter, wizard, sorc, bard, monk and cleric.... a multiclass ranger, rogue, barbarian... and do not play a paladin

[Deathseeker]

<Monkey's Rankings>

Well, I was going to write a current detailed response, but Monkey's pretty much summed it up perfectly. And I believe this also represents the general consensus of most on the forums (not all, but most).

[Gryphton]

I hate the Barbs...
The reason is because it is totally meant for THF. If the builds that stay Crit Rage II take this capstone they will never be able to re-set out of it.

I am interested to see if they come up with many more capstones or not in the somewhat near future. I don't agree with the use of capstones to try to balance the development mistakes of the past.

I pretty much agree with Monkey except for my dislike of the barbs and the rangers.

[daniel7]

I'm pretty much in agreement with monkey_archer. I think they are pretty much all helpful but non of them are so powerful that people are going to reroll. Turbine uses the capstone as another game balancing tool.
Some people are upset that only ranged rangers benefit from the ranger's capstone but its for two good reasons: pure ranged rangers needed a boost to catch up in dps and because twf rangers definitely do not need a boost in dps.
Is the paladin capstone better then the barbarian capstone? I think so, but paladins needed the boost barbarians didn't.