Drow, Human, or WF---Sorc

[Rhymer25]

WF is my personal favorite by far. The ability to instantly give myself a full heal is incredible. I like to jump in, drop a firewall and fog, get a ton of aggro and leap around like a chicken with my head cut off. Any other race and you can't do this near as well. I can't tell you how many times I would have died had I been on my human sorc but I did not die due to uber healing. If you like to hug dwf clerics I guess human or drow may be ok. This nonsense about more SP or DC is really nothing when you have the power to heal yourself with ease. I can Finger just fine and PK sucks on any caster so whatever. If my web and disco ball fail more then the next caster I really cant tell. Suppose it does? Who cares I'll live.

I do not solo much, and while WF is great for soloing that is not my reason to take a WF. Play one and you will understand.

[FluffyCalico]

I agree a drow can be great, but the question is what is best. Currently, at end game what is best is a human sorc since you'll have more hit points an a extra feat with the same number of spell points and the same spell DCs. With the Abbot trinket the drow can get to 40 (+1 DC over human) so long as your sorc is chaotic aligned, if not then you're taking a neg level when you equip it so you're no better off than the human in this case.

Like I said, I have a drow sorc with 39 char/20 con and he has over 200 hp but I still think human is the better choice at end game.

The argument is a circle. Your argument assumes he will have a +3 tome. What if he only has a +2 tome then the drow will have +1 DC. Or what if he does get the abbot item... on and on. The truth is the drow is 1 DC higher 50% of the time depending on gear. Also I have no issues staying alive on a Drow sorc. By the way a Drow sorc can have alot more than 200 hp. Do you have a con tome? How about greater false life belt? +6 con item? If so you should be closer to 250HP

[Rholt25]

UGH... I still dont know what I want to do. I keep thinking WF for the self healing, but then i think that I'll be using up a spellslot that I could have something else in. And then human, with the extra feat bonus..man, I appreciate everyone's imput and I have been taking everything into consideration. I solo'd a drow to lvl 4 in a few hours last night, and died a few times because I couldn't quaf pots fast enough...shrug. Maybe I should go WF due to the fact that I may not be skilled enough to know how to get myself out of trouble...and a nice swift reconstruct would help me out of a jam???

As for the suggestion on doing a wizard first..i've dabble around with them a tiny bit, and don’t really like the slow casting and dismal spell points.

[ForwardWu]

try to think in another way..

drow is the one easiest to die, given less hp and cant self heal by spells..
human is in between, and still have a hard time until you can use heal scrolls.
Wf is the best survivor...a lot of immunity and can self heal easily

I have tried all 3 races to cap, and my personal preference is human as he has good hp and better umd (i took umd for the human bonus feat)

[tinyelvis]

If you have trouble staying alive, and apparently a lot of people do, go WF and avoid the headache. You may not be the very best spell slinging sorcerer, but you will still be a sorcerer and that is still pretty uber.

[Vengenance]

The argument is a circle. Your argument assumes he will have a +3 tome. What if he only has a +2 tome then the drow will have +1 DC. Or what if he does get the abbot item... on and on. The truth is the drow is 1 DC higher 50% of the time depending on gear. Also I have no issues staying alive on a Drow sorc. By the way a Drow sorc can have alot more than 200 hp. Do you have a con tome? How about greater false life belt? +6 con item? If so you should be closer to 250HP

Ok how about this:
Drow: +1 DC to spell squishiest of all races (-2 Con)
Human: Bonus Feat, less squishy than drow, Human Versatility, +1 stacking enhancement to two stats
WF: -1 DC to spells, self healing, wf immunities, wf con enhancements, sturdiest of all sorcs

Personally I think the human bonus feat trumps the +1 to spell DCs, and the +1 to spell DC is only valid if the sorc is chaotically aligned and has the litany trinket from the abbot raid. Regarding my sorc, I started with a 12 Con and have eaten a +3 con tome and wear a +5 item bringing me to a 20 con. I can get it two a 22 con with exceptional con +1 on my DT robe and +6 con item, but I haven't been grinding for that yet. I also still haven't made a shroud hp item yet, so I should be able to get him to ~300 hp, but a human will still have more hit points and the exact same spell DC as my sorc has (39 Char = 38 Char). My sorc rolled as a human would be better than my sorc rolled as a drow. I'm not saying drow can't be good, I'm just saying human is best.

[Dark-Star]

Healing isn't an issue when you can't fail to throw a Heal scroll.

There is a HUGE difference between using a heal scroll and casting reconstruct when you are in the thick of things.

Would you give up the ability to cast the Heal spell on yourself on your cleric (only could cast Heal from a scroll), for +1-2 DC? Not a perfect analogy, but food for thought.

[Eternity25]

With the Abbot trinket the drow can get to 40 (+1 DC over human) so long as your sorc is chaotic aligned, if not then you're taking a neg level when you equip it so you're no better off than the human in this case.

The Abbot Trinket has no chaotic alignment. It has Taint of Evil. Since its evil aligned, a good character can't equipped it or if they do, they get a negative lvl. It doesn't matter if you're chaotic neutral, lawful neutral, or true neutral. Being neutral lets you equipped it with no penalty. That's partly why I'm making all my future casters and bards true neutral.

[tinyelvis]

but a human will still have more hit points and the exact same spell DC as my sorc has (39 Char = 38 Char). My sorc rolled as a human would be better than my sorc rolled as a drow. I'm not saying drow can't be good, I'm just saying human is best.

With the extra Charisma point a Drow can hover at 38 charisma and spend the SIX points saved maxing charisma out on other enhancements. Six enhancement points saved is like an extra level and a half of enhancements. So the question becomes, do you need more enhancements or an extra feat.

If you want to be an exceptional character and the best arcane caster go Human or Drow depending on whether you need a feat or enhancements. If you want to be an exceptional character you could go WF.

[tinyelvis]

There is a HUGE difference between using a heal scroll and casting reconstruct when you are in the thick of things. Would you give up the ability to cast the Heal spell on yourself on your cleric (only could cast Heal from a scroll), for +1-2 DC? Not a perfect analogy, but food for thought.

Well, not really a good analogy since clerics don't really rely on DC's for their bread and butter. How about this, would you give up your mineral II weapon set as a Barbarian and 10% of your combat ability so that you could self heal. Essentially that's what a WF sorc has done or worse. Besides there is a noticeable difference but not huge difference in the practical use of spell casting vs. scroll. Here are some benifits of scroll healing.

1. Heal scrolling does not use mana
2. You can cast on other party member
3. Spell healing can be a very inefficient use of mana. Often you over heal, essentially wasting points. When you over heal with scroll you only waste money.
4. Although a mili-second slower and only about 100 hp or so a pop per heal, this is usually more than enough.

No one will argue that self healing is not a nice thing to do. However, nothing is free. Heal scroll casting is fine in 99% of engagements. To be an almost perfect self healer you give up too much for my tastes. However, if you die a lot, then maybe this is the route for your caster.

[Vengenance]

The Abbot Trinket has no chaotic alignment. It has Taint of Evil. Since its evil aligned, a good character can't equipped it or if they do, they get a negative lvl. It doesn't matter if you're chaotic neutral, lawful neutral, or true neutral. Being neutral lets you equipped it with no penalty. That's partly why I'm making all my future casters and bards true neutral.

Thanks for the clarification, unforntunately my caster is lawfully aligned so I'm out of luck with this one.

[Dark-Star]

Well, not really a good analogy since clerics don't really rely on DC's for their bread and butter. How about this, would you give up your mineral II weapon set as a Barbarian and 10% of your combat ability so that you could self heal. Essentially that's what a WF sorc has done or worse. Besides there is a noticeable difference but not huge difference in the practical use of spell casting vs. scroll. Here are some benifits of scroll healing.

1. Heal scrolling does not use mana
2. You can cast on other party member
3. Spell healing can be a very inefficient use of mana. Often you over heal, essentially wasting points. When you over heal with scroll you only waste money.
4. Although a mili-second slower and only about 100 hp or so a pop per heal, this is usually more than enough.

No one will argue that self healing is not a nice thing to do. However, nothing is free. Heal scroll casting is fine in 99% of engagements. To be an almost perfect self healer you give up too much for my tastes. However, if you die a lot, then maybe this is the route for your caster.

Scroll casting is more than a millisecond difference. You have to equip the scroll, then click on it, then hope you are not interupted, then use another to heal to full. A quickened reconstruct heals for full instantly and uninteruptably. Oh btw, WF sorcs can also use scroll healing when it makes more sense to. They can also act as arcane healers on WF when a cleric is not needed or available.

Again from someone that has both, WF is what you want. You will not regret it.

You barb analogy makes zero sense.

[Rhymer25]

UGH... I still dont know what I want to do. I keep thinking WF for the self healing, but then i think that I'll be using up a spellslot that I could have something else in. And then human, with the extra feat bonus..man, I appreciate everyone's imput and I have been taking everything into consideration. I solo'd a drow to lvl 4 in a few hours last night, and died a few times because I couldn't quaf pots fast enough...shrug. Maybe I should go WF due to the fact that I may not be skilled enough to know how to get myself out of trouble...and a nice swift reconstruct would help me out of a jam???

As for the suggestion on doing a wizard first..i've dabble around with them a tiny bit, and don’t really like the slow casting and dismal spell points.

You wont regret playing a WF. You have a much higher chance of regretting your choice of Human or Drow as I did. So if anything the WF is the safe bet due to survivability.

I will admit reconstruct is in a really tough spell level spot. To have it over some other really good spell choices is hard, but if that bothers you a heightened + enhanced Greater repair is almost as good (will cost a little more SP to use and heal a little less depending on your enhancements). Plus repair wands with no UMD check are nice while you level and to top off your hp end game.

Finally the Wiz argument is not a big deal, it is mostly just preference, sorc and wiz are both perfectly fine as a first character. Anyone who has used a sorc as their first character can attest to that I'm sure, especially since they allowed us to change a spell every 3 days.

[Arianrhod]

I'd say try one of each, till you get it to 3rd level or so. The first few levels are going to be the toughest anyway (especially if you're soloing them), so you'll get a feel for whether you prefer the higher save DCs, more feats, or survivability. Once you find out which suits you best, you'll have your answer. Obviously if there were an objective "best" of the three, the thread wouldn't have gone on this long.

[tinyelvis]

Scroll casting is more than a millisecond difference. You have to equip the scroll, then click on it, then hope you are not interupted, then use another to heal to full. A quickened reconstruct heals for full instantly and uninteruptably.

Casting a scroll takes a fraction of a second longer than a spell. Either can be done in less than a second, literally. I know, I use both scrolls and reconstruct. The worst part about scroll casting is the need to swap back to your weapon set when you complete it. Another bad thing is the cool down rate prohibits other scroll use. (I dont think you really understand the differences or you would have mentioned these issues).

Now, you bring up interruptions and quicken. These are dirty little secrets you WF sorc usually fail to mention to those you attempt to con into taking WF race. Most WF sorcs are not skilled in avoiding damage or know how to cast safely without the need for higher concentration skills and/or wasting a precious feat on quicken. A scroll has no more failure chance than a spell.

Oh btw, WF sorcs can also use scroll healing when it makes more sense to. They can also act as arcane healers on WF when a cleric is not needed or available.

Thier UMD is lower and their failure rate much higher. There is nothing about being a WF that makes them a better arcane WF healer. This is a function of enhancements, weapons sets, and spell selection. My Drow Sorcerer is a better arcane healer than 99% of the WF's out there. So, by your own example, it is shown that a Human or Drow can do this better than a WF since not only can they heal WF's as well or better, they can also heal everyone else better.

You barb analogy makes zero sense.

From someone with the point of view of a lame arcane caster with great self healing traits, I don't doubt you identify with clerics. However, a pure sorcerer is a DPS character. He kills things fast and efficiently. Self healing is a secondary bonus. Perhaps your sorc resembles a cleric, but a pure sorcerer typically has more in common with a Barbarian than a Cleric. I am not at all surprised that you dont understand the analogy.

[Dark-Star]

Nice job on the personal attacks there tinyelvis.

I have both drow and wf sorcs (and wizard), I understand them both.

Swapping from weapons to a scroll, casting a scroll, then swapping back takes more than a millisecond. The OP can try it at level one. Casting a repair or reconstruct spell can be done in the heat of battle, virtually instantly.

A scroll has a higher failure chance than a spell because it takes longer to cast, therefore creating more chances to get hit and interupted.

Saying that most people that play a certain race are somehow less skilled than someone playing another race is illogical and rediculous.

Sorcs don't need umd to cast recon scrolls. And a 39 umd score is a no fail Heal scroll for any race.

You might have reconstruct on your drow sorc, but you rare. On Khyber I know exactly one non-wf sorc who has reconstruct, out of hundreds. Regardless, your spell choices are irrelevent to the OP's question.

Sorcs are killing machines, but a well played sorcs are much more than that. They crowd control, buff, and heal when the situation calls for it.

OP as others have stated, you will not regret going WF.

[Rhymer25]

Try scrolling when you have 4 named Orthons on you and tell me how that works out.

[Blind_Skwerl]

Try scrolling when you have 4 named Orthons on you and tell me how that works out.

Hehe try doing anything other than hopping around like a jumping bean!

In all seriousness, I have a drow sorc, a wf bard and a wf wizard/rogue. I wish my sorc was wf too. I think it is the ultimate race for the "squishie" classes. A hotkeyed stack of reconstruct scrolls almost makes it so they have to be 1-hit to die. I would typically do the jumping/tumbling thing and hit my hot key till I'm good.

[bigj1608]

If you have good twitch skills and can jump, move, switch hotbars and use items quickly, Heal scrolls are fine.

The Warforged is already a feat short of the Human, and I doubt many Humans take Quicken, so in order to be at your best, the Warforged is going to be two feats short of the Human.

I'd say that it's about how good you are at maneuvering and actually PLAYING, rather than the build that should determine what race you choose. If you are still learning, aren't quite in tune with jumping and casting at the same time, or if it takes you several seconds to switch hot bars and find your spells, you would probably live longer, in most cases, as a Warforged.

With that said, I will forever argue that Human is the optimal race for a Sorcerer.

[Eternity25]

I have a drow sorc and hardly ever die. Sometimes a +1 to spell DC and +25 sp does make a difference (or +2 spell dc, +50 sp when compared to warforged). After playing a drow as a sorc I wouldn't make a wizard or sorc any other race. Survivability depends more on skill, strategy, gear, and experience than what race you are. Drow are my personal preference for casters.

Example: if all the following were True Neutral Aligned, Lawful Neutral, or Chaotic Neutral. All possess the same hp gear and hp enhancing feats.: Using the Drow as the standard and comparing the pros and cons of each build.

Drow that started with base 20 cha: Current Engame: 20+4 ability raises+9item+3tome+3 enhancements+1 abbot trinket=40 Cha
Pros: +1 spell dc, +25 sp
Cons: 16-32 less hp than a human or warforged.

Human that started with 18 base cha: Current Endgame:18+4 ability raises+9item+3tome+4 enhancements+1 abbot trinket=39
Pros: Human bonus Feat, +16 or +32 more hp than a drow
Cons: -1 spell dc, -25 hp compared to a drow

Warforged that started at 16 base cha: Current Endgame: 16+4 ability raises+9item+3tome+3 enhancements+1 abbot trinket=36
Pros: +16 or +32 more hp than a drow, can self-heal using the repair spell
Cons: -2 spell dc, -50 sp compared to a drow. When compared to a human, -1 spell dc, -25 sp, no bonus feat.